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What Jesus Said About Adam and Eve

Dale

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Sorry I did not intend to cast women in a negative light. I was more interested in the specific verse where Paul refers to Adam and Eve as a text in the New Testiment mentioning Adam and Eve. But the verse on its own had no context and I did not want to link it without context.

But it seems that even these 2 verses need context. Anyway it was not about anything to do with the meaning of the verse but rather only that it mentions Adam and Eve.

As a side note I don't think the verse or section Paul is mentioning paints women in a negative light anyway. We know that we all have the same worth and dignity being made in Gods image. I don't think Paul would be demeaning women by those words. Its something beyond our understanding and more to do with Gods way. Which is always good intentioned.

This is to Dale. For some reason your post did not link. This was for your post number 14.

Ok so I may have misunderstood your point.

I used Pauls reference to Adam and Eve because it is used as a reference to his teachings for the church. Paul qualifies these teachings as from Christ in the form of the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.


7For this reason I was appointed as a preacher, an apostle, and a faithful and true teacher of the Gentiles. I am telling the truth; I am not lying about anything.

Then Paul goes into the teachings for the church. I assume that by declaring he is telling the truth and is teaching that when he refers back to Adam and Eve as a basis for the teaching that this is a teaching from Christ through the Holy Spirit and not Pauls personal view.

Especially considering his other teachings and how important they are for individuals and the church. He is more or less the main teacher after Penticost that teaches the church along with Peter.

I don't necessarily think Adam and Eve themselves were especially important.

But there is a relationship, a disposition and order that is within Gods way that represents Adam and Eve or man and women that I think Paul is referencing. Something that is behind the teachings and about Gods law and order. His way of doing things to ensure stability and order so that the gospel can be preached without chaos. Not just for man and women but for nature and reality itself.

I think Jesus refers to this as well in regards to marriage. That only a man and women as created can become one flesh. This is Gods order and when it is defied there is disorder. As with adultery ot other forms of marriage.

Steve: “Sorry I did not intend to cast women in a negative light.”

I’m glad to hear that.

Steve: “That only a man and women as created can become one flesh.”

I agree.

Steve: “But there is a relationship, a disposition and order that is within Gods way that represents Adam and Eve or man and women that I think Paul is referencing.”

True. “Adam” is Hebrew for “the man.”
 
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Dale

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But what was the context of Stephen's preaching? To whom was he preaching? He was addressing his fellow Jews, descendants of Abraham. So it is fitting that he should mention Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others of their ancestors to show how the Lord Jesus Christ fitted with them.

That is a good point. I do have a response.

[Jesus says,]
“But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the
dead rise, for he calls the Lord `the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’.
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Luke 20:37-38 NIV


There are parallel passages in Matt 22:31-32 and Mark 12:26-27.

Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive. He never says any such thing about Adam and Eve. That leaves open the possibility that the Garden of Eden story is a parable. It has a moral, a point, but Adam and Eve are not historical figures.
 
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Michie

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Adam and Eve are indeed historical figures as my faith teaches.

 
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Mystery Girl

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Adam and Eve are actual people. We see that Moses and all the tribes of Israel come down from their descendants.
We see the fall of man was through Adam nor Eve. As only Adam warned by God not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
We know that Jesus was a second Adam he was born by the will of God. Not by the way of the flesh but the will of God.
 
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BeyondET

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Adam and Eve are actual people. We see that Moses and all the tribes of Israel come down from their descendants.
We see the fall of man was through Adam nor Eve. As only Adam warned by God not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
We know that Jesus was a second Adam he was born by the will of God. Not by the way of the flesh but the will of God.
I think it's possible God spoke to Eve as well. She is the only one to mention to not even touch it.

Gen 3
2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’”
 
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BeyondET

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Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive. He never says any such thing about Adam and Eve. That leaves open the possibility that the Garden of Eden story is a parable. It has a moral, a point, but Adam and Eve are not historical figures.
How does sin and death fit in with the historical figures as just a parable.
 
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David Lamb

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That is a good point. I do have a response.

[Jesus says,]
“But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the
dead rise, for he calls the Lord `the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’.
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Luke 20:37-38 NIV


There are parallel passages in Matt 22:31-32 and Mark 12:26-27.

Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive. He never says any such thing about Adam and Eve. That leaves open the possibility that the Garden of Eden story is a parable. It has a moral, a point, but Adam and Eve are not historical figures.
I understand those passages as Jesus using the passage about the burning bush, which does mention Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as examples of those faithful ones in heaven. If you say Adam and Eve were characters in a parable, then what of Cain, Abel and Seth? What of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is called the Last Adam?
 
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St_Worm2

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Steve, you seem to assume that Paul saying something is the same as Jesus saying it. I don’t see how this is so.
Hello Dale, it seems to me that the only way that what Paul says in the Bible can be considered to be on an equal standing with what the Lord Jesus says (authoritatively speaking, that is) would be if the entire Bible is considered to be the word of God.

So, what do you believe, 1. that the entire Bible ~is~ the inspired/breathed word of God, or 2. that Paul's Epistles are simply his best (human) musings about the Divine instead?

There's much more that I'd like to talk to you about, but I think that I'll stop and wait to hear your answer about this before moving on.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
 
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The Liturgist

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I hear Christians talking about Adam and Eve.
What did Jesus say about Adam and Eve?
“Adam” is not mentioned in the Gospels.
“Eve” is not mentioned in the Gospels.
The “Garden of Eden” is not mentioned in the Gospels.

Doesn’t this suggest that the Adam and Eve story is less important than many Christians think it is?

This argument is intrinsically flawed insofar as it presupposes the words attributed to Christ, our true God, the incarnate Son and Word in the Gospels, are more important than the words attributed to God (likely to the same Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, for He his the Word; there are only three instances, all in the Gospels, where we specifically know it was God the Father who spoke , who is alone unoriginate but who is ever One God, together with His only begotten Son and the Holy Spirit which proceeds from Him, all three persons of the Holy, Undivided and Life Giving Trinity being of one essence with the Father, united in perfect love eternally: coequal, coeternal, consubstantial and uncreated.

Furthermore, it also presupposes that the words attributed to Christ in the Gospels are of more weight that the words attributed to Christ elsewhere in the New Testament, for example, in Acts, 1 Corinthians and the Apocalypse..

More than that, it ignores the fact that the entirety of canonical Scripture has been discerned to have been divinely inspired, that is to say, God-breathed, by God the Holy Spirit, who proceeds eternally from the Father, who came upon the Blessed Virgin Mary and caused her to conceive Christ our True God without having known a man, and who was then sent by Christ to serve as our Comforter and Paraclete, who spoke through the Prophets - the third person of the Holy Trinity, the Lord and Giver of Life we confess in the Nicene Creed, who is everywhere present and fills all things.

This underscores why I am opposed to the use of red letter Bibles - the raison d’etre for rubrication is to demarcate instructions to clergy in liturgical texts, and its use to highlight Dominical statements was an innovation, dating from 1901, which was related to the heresy known as “Jesusism” or the “Jesus Words Only” movement which rejects the teachings of the Holy Apostle Paul and erroneously supposes the Gospels were corrupted in the Middle Ages (something we know not to be the case, since we have manuscripts, indeed, even of the entire Bible, dating from the fourth century, for example, the three great Alexandrian text-type manuscripts like Codex Sinaiticus, which was stolen from the Eastern Orthodox Monastery of St. Catharine in Sinai in the 19th century by a Belgian adventurer and sold to the British, French and Russian Empire.*

What is more, it is the case that the early church consistently described Christ our True God as the New Adam, and His Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary, as the new Eve, for through her obedience she enabled God to put on our human nature, restore it and glorify it, remaking it in his image on the sixth day through His passion on the cross, before resting on the seventh, as He had done in the beginning, and then rising again in glory in the Paschal Light on the Eighth.

Therefore, regarding Adam and Eve, in their sin they unwittingly brought death and destruction upon humanity, in their repentence they prefigured the experience of the Hebrew faith of the Old Covenant which in turn prefigured the Christian faith of the New Covenant, in which the moral instructions on righteousness God conveyed to the world through the people from whom the Mother of God would be chosen from the lineage of the King and Prophet St. David, author of the Psalms, which remain the definitive Christian hymns, so aptly do they engage with the Christian experience, and thus giving rise to the Christian religion, and in this respect Adam and Eve prefigured the Mother of God and her Son, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, the same uncreated Word of God who was with the Father in the beginning together with the Holy Spirit, by whom all things were made, in whom the image of the unseen Father was revealed to us (John 1:1-18), allowing us to behold the glory of God and be glorified as the New Adam glorified humankind, being the firstfruits of the Resurrection, showing us what it truly means to be human.

Therefore, whether one is a creationist or not, the persons of Adam and Eve are essential to understanding the Gospel narrative, for they are the antitype of Jesus Christ and his glorious Mother, for the Word of God suffered to become man and to submit to torture and death that we might be freed from the bondage of sin and death and obtain everlasting life, becoming by grace what He is by nature, and likewise in the person of the Theotokos we see a woman who obeyed God rather than allowing herself to be seduced by the temptations of the devil, and as a result, all generations shall call her blessed, according to the Gospel of St. Luke the Evangelist, in the same way that Adam and Eve have become synonymous with disobedience and becoming accursed through capitulation to diabolical temptations.

But right now, we are like the old Adam and the old Eve, suffering the wages of sin, and if we have faith, and fear of God, we admit this, our sinfulness, with tears of compunction, yet it is our vocation to put to death the old man and to become like the New Adam and the New Eve, by rejecting all the temptations of the devil and the sinful passions, and repenting of our sins, and serving God with obedience and reverence, even where the instructions provided by God deny us fleshy pleasures we would otherwise enjoy, but like the Blessed Virgin Mary, we recognize that this world and everything in it is passing away, and what truly matters is our treasure we accumulate in Heaven, and the place we secure for ourselves in the life of the world to come. Thus, like Adam and Eve, we pray for mercy, while seeking to repent and obey that we might become like the only begotten Son and Incarnate Word of God and His obedient human mother. And this is a legitimate aspiration, for as St. Athanasius, the compiler of the New Testament canon, observed, in his book On The Incarnation refuting the heresy of Arius (the denial of the incarnation) pointed out, God became man so that man could become god - not in the sense of being additional members of the Holy Trinity, but rather becoming by grace what Christ is by nature - sinless, ageless and a recipient of the gift of life everlasting.

+

Here follow some historical and liturgical footnotes I felt moved to write:

*The Russian Empire uncanonically interfered with the operation of the Russian Orthodox Church, in the same way that some Orthodox churches at present such as the Latvian Orthodox Church are subject to uncanonical interference from their governments, from the death of Patriarch Nikon during the reign of Czar Peter “the Great” until the abdication of Czar Nicholas II, although the same Czar is now accounted together with his family as martyrs, for their refusal to renounce the Orthodox faith like the refusal of Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia led to their martyrdom and subsequent glorification. But their killing was particularly horrendous given that St. Alexei was only 13 years old, suffering from an incurable hereditary blood disorder, and had furthermore been disabled and rendered unable to walk prior to the Imperial family being moved to the “House of Special Purpose” in Yektarinenburg, and furthermore, St. Anastasia was herself only 17, but St. Alexei and Anastasia are by no means the first or only child martyrs in the history of Christianity. For example, there was St. Abanoub, a Coptic boy of twelve years martyred during the Diocletian persecutions, who was miraculously spared various cruel attempts to take his life in a torturous manner before finally being beheaded, and St. Agnes of Rome, a 14 year old girl, and St. Peter the Aleut, a 15 year old Native Alaskan fisherman who was martyred by the Spanish authorities at the Roman Catholic missions in California in the 18th century, who evidently felt threatened by the presence of an Orthodox Christian teenager who merely sought to obtain sustenance.

Finally there are the Holy Innocents, who were killed by the wicked King Herod in a failed attempt to kill Christ our True God. These infants became the first to be killed by someone who felt threatened by the Incarnation, and while not martyrs in the sense of having confessed the faith and killed for it, are nonetheless worthy of veneration. Indeed the Eastern Orthodox venerate them on December 28th, the day after the Illustrious Protomartyr Saint Stephen the Deacon is commemorated in our rite (in other rites St. Stephen is commemorated on the 26th, but in our rite the 26th is reserved for the Synaxis of our Glorious Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, and in like manner January 7th, the day after the Feast of the Baptism of Christ (Theophany, sometimes still called Epiphany in the West, although historically Epiphany in the Western church was focused on the worship of Christ our True God by the Three Magi, which in the Eastern churches is instead commemorated on the Synaxis of the Theotokos on December 26th) and in some churches this is still the case; further in the past, prior to the fourth century, all churches celebrated the Nativity and the Baptism of Christ on January 6th, however, given that the Annunciation (when St. Gabriel the Archangel revealed to St. Mary that if she agreed she would become the Mother of God, the Ark by which the Only Begotten Son and Word became Incarnate, to which she consented, at great personal risk it should be noted, and thus the Holy Spirit caused her to conceive at that time).

Saint Abanoub, Agnes, Alexei, Anastasia and Peter the Aleut, Pray for Us! St. Stephen, the Illustrious Protomartyr, Pray for Us! Holy Innocents, Pray for Us! St. Mary, our glorious Lady Theotokos, whose virignity is perpetual and who did bear and give birth to Christ our True God, and served as His human Mother, who carried in thy womb the infinite and unbounded creator of all things, retaining thy virginity having been unburnt by the fire of God’s love, like the sacred shrub upon which the Holy Spirit appeared as a supernatural flame before Moses, and just as that shrubbery remains alive even today encased within the monastery, thy virginity remains intact, as a testament to the holiness of Christ our True God. Oh ye who love our God having won crowns of martyrdom, join with the Mother of God in pointing us to the Incarnate Truth, her Son, the only begotten of the Father, with whom He reigns, together with the Holy Spirit, one God, now and ever and unto the ages of ages.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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I hear Christians talking about Adam and Eve.
What did Jesus say about Adam and Eve?
“Adam” is not mentioned in the Gospels.
“Eve” is not mentioned in the Gospels.
The “Garden of Eden” is not mentioned in the Gospels.

Doesn’t this suggest that the Adam and Eve story is less important than many Christians think it is?
Jesus said every Word of God applies to man. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut. 8:3

Adam and Eve included

What people fail to consider is that Mark 4:15 happened to Adam and Eve. From that point on neither of them are as they appear on the surface.

The N.T. other than the Gospels doesn't mention marriage. Doesn't mean they diminished it
 
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Dale

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Adam and Eve are indeed historical figures as my faith teaches.


When I was in a high school Sunday School class, we talked about Adam and Eve. A boy asked our teacher how all the racial diversity in the world could come from Adam and Eve. The teacher responded by saying that there could be more than one Garden of Eden. God could have created a dozen such Gardens, each with a specially created man and woman. Or a hundred Gardens, if needed.

You may think this is the craziest idea you’ve ever heard, but it does solve some problems, besides racial diversity. Who did the sons of Adam and Eve marry? The creationists I talk to are bothered by this problem. If you think that Adam and Eve are historical people, it looks like this is where you end up.
 
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Dale

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Adam and Eve are indeed historical figures as my faith teaches.


Michie, I take it that you are Roman Catholic. I looked up Adam in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. Most of the article assumes that Adam is historical but I also found this.

Under Adam in the Old Testament:

“Practically all the Old Testament information concerning Adam and the beginnings of the human race is contained in the opening chapters of Genesis. To what extent these chapters should be considered as strictly historical is a much disputed question, the discussion of which does not come within the scope of the present article.”

Source
 
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davetaff

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Hi
why should we think the first Adam was any different to the last Adam we know what the last Adam will look like he will be the head of a huge body off believer's so was the first Adam also the head of a multitude of believers this is the reason for the flood so God could begin again the climax the second advent of Jesus when he presents himself before the Father with his body of believers this is man in the image of God.

Love and Peace
Dave
 
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Dale

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I understand those passages as Jesus using the passage about the burning bush, which does mention Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as examples of those faithful ones in heaven. If you say Adam and Eve were characters in a parable, then what of Cain, Abel and Seth? What of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is called the Last Adam?

The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29 NIV

David, thanks for your interest. As far as I can tell, Jesus is specifically called the Last Adam only once, in I Corinthians 15:45. Jesus is called by many titles, including the Good Shepherd, Lion of Judah, King of Kings, Prince of Peace, and the Lamb. John the Baptist calls Jesus the Lamb of God in John 1:29. The Book of Revelation calls Jesus “the Lamb” over twenty times. The Book of Hebrews directly calls Jesus our “High Priest” fourteen times. To call Jesus “the Lamb” fits perfectly with His role as a sacrifice for our sins. To call Jesus our “High Priest” fits perfectly with His role as the only intercessor between mortals and God the Father.

Calling Jesus the “Last Adam” or “Second Adam” is not necessary for Christian theology.
 
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Dale

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Jesus said every Word of God applies to man. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut. 8:3

Adam and Eve included

What people fail to consider is that Mark 4:15 happened to Adam and Eve. From that point on neither of them are as they appear on the surface.

The N.T. other than the Gospels doesn't mention marriage. Doesn't mean they diminished it

BelieveItOarKnot: “The N.T. other than the Gospels doesn't mention marriage. Doesn't mean they diminished it.”



I’m not sure where you got the notion that most of the New Testament does not mention marriage. Here are a few examples.

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
Romans 7:2 NIV

Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
Hebrews 13:4 NIV

They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, revelling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed — an accursed brood!
II Peter 2:13-14 NIV

 
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tharkun73

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When I was in a high school Sunday School class, we talked about Adam and Eve. A boy asked our teacher how all the racial diversity in the world could come from Adam and Eve. The teacher responded by saying that there could be more than one Garden of Eden. God could have created a dozen such Gardens, each with a specially created man and woman. Or a hundred Gardens, if needed.

You may think this is the craziest idea you’ve ever heard, but it does solve some problems, besides racial diversity. Who did the sons of Adam and Eve marry? The creationists I talk to are bothered by this problem. If you think that Adam and Eve are historical people, it looks like this is where you end up.
Or, there were other humans already outside the garden. There's no Biblical problem with this idea.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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BelieveItOarKnot: “The N.T. other than the Gospels doesn't mention marriage. Doesn't mean they diminished it.”



I’m not sure where you got the notion that most of the New Testament does not mention marriage. Here are a few examples.

For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
Romans 7:2 NIV

Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
Hebrews 13:4 NIV

They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, revelling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed — an accursed brood!
II Peter 2:13-14 NIV
Zero references for the ceremonial aspects

In addition Paul taught largely from allegory in any case, Romans 7 reference being an example that really has nothing to do with flesh marriage
 
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Dale

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I understand those passages as Jesus using the passage about the burning bush, which does mention Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as examples of those faithful ones in heaven. If you say Adam and Eve were characters in a parable, then what of Cain, Abel and Seth? What of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is called the Last Adam?


The Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son are characters in a parable. All Christians know about them and we can learn from them.
 
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David Lamb

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The Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son are characters in a parable. All Christians know about them and we can learn from them.
Yes, of course the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son are characters in parables; we come across them in the course of 2 parables Jesus told. However, my post was in response to yours where your wrote: "Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive. He never says any such thing about Adam and Eve. That leaves open the possibility that the Garden of Eden story is a parable. It has a moral, a point, but Adam and Eve are not historical figures.."
 
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Valletta

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Michie, I take it that you are Roman Catholic. I looked up Adam in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. Most of the article assumes that Adam is historical but I also found this.

Under Adam in the Old Testament:

“Practically all the Old Testament information concerning Adam and the beginnings of the human race is contained in the opening chapters of Genesis. To what extent these chapters should be considered as strictly historical is a much disputed question, the discussion of which does not come within the scope of the present article.”

Source
I am a Catholic and am unfamiliar with the particular publication but that seems like a reasonable statement. That being said, there was indeed a first man and first woman from who we are all descended as the Bible says. Original sin was committed. Eve was in some way created from Adam. As to the rest, a rib, a garden, those might be used so that we could understand. The real "garden" or manner in which Eve was created may be beyond our comprehension.
 
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