What is the Message of Romans 9

[Carl Emerson]

Collectively or individually?

 

[Peter John]

Collectively or individually?

Individually, for the few God has chosen & predestined, He has mercy. For the rest, it is His wrath, that they are preordained to.
God's boundary for His elect is what predestined means- pro'orizo- pre- before & 'orizo- horizon- division of light & darkness. Mercy for those in the light, & wrath for those in darkness. It is impossible to predestine those meant for wrath, because of how it is defined.

 

[HatGuy]

Individually, for the few God has chosen & predestined, He has mercy. For the rest, it is His wrath, that they are preordained to.
God's boundary for His elect is what predestined means- pro'orizo- pre- before & 'orizo- horizon- division of light & darkness. Mercy for those in the light, & wrath for those in darkness. It is impossible to predestine those meant for wrath, because of how it is defined.

Given that the verse in question is dealing with people groups, why must this verse be interpreted individually?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

My mistake sorry...

I meant Rom 9:21 the reference to vessel is what or whom ???

According to 9:20, it's related to how God individually forms us.

Specifically, it would be comparing a pot used to carry water, and another clay container used for going to the bathroom in or like a spitoon etc. Same materials, different purpose, same potter.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It is impossible to predestine those meant for wrath, because of how it is defined.

Can you explain this a bit more please.

 

[HatGuy]

I don't mean to undo what you say here; Reformed Theology (or Calvinism, as some like to call it) does not seek to be proven by Scripture but to demonstrate in Scripture what has been ignored (or worse) by Christendom. Romans 9 does not defend Calvinism. It only tells the truth, which is what Calvinism tries to do. Romans 9 makes some bald statements that, in spite of the theme and focus of the context cannot be ignored. Yes it is about Israel and Gentiles. That does not change the obvious statements concerning God's work being his alone, regardless of our take or preference or opinion or even our integrity of decision. God does what he does, and who are we to question his motives or justice?

Do we honestly think this passage allows for us to think that God has respect for us as some sort of peers, with integral worth as living beings, apart from him?

Sorry. Maybe that isn't the point of the passage, but it is hard to ignore what is going on in Christian circles concerning free will these days. Romans 9 sets it straight.

It's a good point.

 

[Peter John]

Can you explain this a bit more please.

Ok, like I said, pro'orizo means pre-bound, 'orizo is where we get horizon from. Horizon is the division between light & darkness. If you are in the dark, you cannot see the horizon, so only those within the light of God's boundary/horizon, can be predestined, the rest face God's wrath, as Rom9v22-23 says.
Most people think they have a 'freewill', that the world defines as something inside you, that God has no control over, whereas freewill in the bible, is only mentioned as vowed or voluntary offerings for the old testament temple.
Predestination says God's chosen are fated, Jn15v16, to conform to Christ's likeness, & receive God's mercy, the rest do not.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ok, like I said, pro'orizo means pre-bound, 'orizo is where we get horizon from. Horizon is the division between light & darkness. If you are in the dark, you cannot see the horizon, so only those within the light of God's boundary/horizon, can be predestined, the rest face God's wrath, as Rom9v22-23 says.
Most people think they have a 'freewill', that the world defines as something inside you, that God has no control over, whereas freewill in the bible, is only mentioned as vowed or voluntary offerings for the old testament temple.
Predestination says God's chosen are fated, Jn15v16, to conform to Christ's likeness, & receive God's mercy, the rest do not.

OK got it thanks...

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Carl

Long Thread so I will not muddy it any...

You may find this helpful: Romans 9 – An Exegesis to Share

In Him,

Bill

 

[thomas_t]

Hi Bob. Nice to meet you.

Those who choose to believe and accept the promise are Israel:

Let me give you an example: If John promises Jack to give him 100 Euros... would he give it to me when I tell him I accept the promise?
Or would he rather be angry about that silly trick I would be wanting to play him? How do you think Jack would react when he finds out about my behavior?

Accepting promises doesn't transform anyone into being Israel/Jewish.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise:

This passage is merely saying not every Jew is truely Jewish. There's nothing to infer that true Jews are Christians, as you suggest.
and it's about being Abraham's children... But Abraham had many sons (8 to be precise).
Isaac is not the same person as Jacob (Israel), either.

That is an expansion on
Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

yeah true Jews are circumcised in the heart. True Jews, as the text says - not necessarily true Christians. There are some who are truely Jewish AND truely Christians: they are called Messianic Jews.
However, the terms inward Jew and inward Christian aren't interchangeable, as you suggest. This is how I understand your post at least.

Thomas