What is the Mark of the Beast ?

[Tigger Boy]

Let me clarify that there is a distinct difference between Spiritual Israel and National Israel... the twelve tribes should be taken literally as referring to National Israel.

Thanks for the clarification.

The "root" (144,000 represents the patriarchs and the promises of God given to Israel, which now support and nourish the Gentile believers who have been grafted in by faith. This imagery emphasizes that the Gentiles owe their inclusion and sustenance to the rich spiritual heritage rooted in God's covenant with Israel.

(Rev. 7:3; 10:7) interprets the 144,000, as the "servants the prophets". Too, the contexts of both texts as we both understand it are events within the time of the tribulation, of which the patriarchs have long pasted. Therefore, I do not agree that the 144,000, represent the "root", the patriarchs and the promises given to Israel. I believe your spiritual interpretation is unwarranted, and confuses the interpretation of prophecy.

Consider this interpretation:
The 144,000 servant prophets are called first fruits (Rev. 14:4) because they will be sealed first. The 144,000 will have their carnal natures removed and Christ will seal them against the corruptive power of sin. During the Great Tribulation, everyone who embraces the gospel of Jesus and passes the test of faith will also be sealed. The 144,000 are described as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel because believers in Christ are counted as the heirs of the promises given to Abraham under God's unilateral covenant (one sided) not the nation of Israel. Like Abraham, the 144,000 know how to live by faith. The 144,000 will also demonstrate the gift of sanctification that comes through faith. Jesus wants the world to see living examples of what any sinner can become. So, the gospel of Jesus will come with a demonstration as well as a proclamation of God’s truth and love!

This interpretation make more sense in the end time setting than how you interpret it? Why according to your interpretation would God use the nation of Israel, who for 1500 years were rebellious and were sent into Babylon for seventy years because of it, then given another 490 yrs. (Dan. 9: 20-27) to get their nation in order. During this time Jesus appeared in their mist and taught for 3.5 years, and was crucified for speaking the truth. Why do you think they are a blessing to the gentiles when in truth as a nation they are a stumbling block to this day, since they do not believe Jesus is God?

 

[Paradise Haven]

Thanks for the clarification.

(Rev. 7:3; 10:7) interprets the 144,000, as the "servants the prophets". Too, the contexts of both texts as we both understand it are events within the time of the tribulation, of which the patriarchs have long pasted. Therefore, I do not agree that the 144,000, represent the "root", the patriarchs and the promises given to Israel. I believe your spiritual interpretation is unwarranted, and confuses the interpretation of prophecy.

Consider this interpretation:
The 144,000 servant prophets are called first fruits (Rev. 14:4) because they will be sealed first. The 144,000 will have their carnal natures removed and Christ will seal them against the corruptive power of sin. During the Great Tribulation, everyone who embraces the gospel of Jesus and passes the test of faith will also be sealed. The 144,000 are described as belonging to the twelve tribes of Israel because believers in Christ are counted as the heirs of the promises given to Abraham under God's unilateral covenant (one sided) not the nation of Israel. Like Abraham, the 144,000 know how to live by faith. The 144,000 will also demonstrate the gift of sanctification that comes through faith. Jesus wants the world to see living examples of what any sinner can become. So, the gospel of Jesus will come with a demonstration as well as a proclamation of God’s truth and love!

This interpretation make more sense in the end time setting than how you interpret it? Why according to your interpretation would God use the nation of Israel, who for 1500 years were rebellious and were sent into Babylon for seventy years because of it, then given another 490 yrs. (Dan. 9: 20-27) to get their nation in order. During this time Jesus appeared in their mist and taught for 3.5 years, and was crucified for speaking the truth. Why do you think they are a blessing to the gentiles when in truth as a nation they are a stumbling block to this day, since they do not believe Jesus is God?

The notion that God abandoned Israel's covenantal promises when they crucified Christ is not supported by Scripture. Instead, the Bible consistently affirms the continuity of God's promises to Israel, even into the end times. Romans 11:1-2 states, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." This passage explicitly denies that God has rejected Israel, affirming His enduring commitment to them.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 provides a strong affirmation of the enduring nature of God's covenant with Israel: "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night... If those ordinances depart from before me (This hasn't happened yet), saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever... If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."

Understanding God's relationship with Israel and His plans for them requires a careful examination of Scripture and an appreciation for God's enduring faithfulness. Throughout the Bible, we see that Israel's history is marked by periods of rebellion and restoration, yet God's covenantal promises remain steadfast. In Deuteronomy 7:6-8, God chose Israel to be a special people unto Himself, not because of their righteousness, but because of His love and faithfulness to the promises made to their forefathers. Despite Israel's shortcomings, God's promises to them are irrevocable, as Romans 11:29 states, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

The seventy years of Babylonian captivity and the additional 490 years mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 are part of God's disciplinary process, intended to bring Israel back to Him. Even though they rejected Jesus as the Messiah, leading to His crucifixion, this rejection did not nullify God's plans for Israel. In Romans 11:11-12, Paul explains that through Israel's fall, salvation came to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. This indicates that Israel's role, even in their unbelief, contributes to the broader unfolding of God's redemptive plan for all humanity.

The continued unbelief of Israel does not negate their future role in God's plan. Romans 11:25-26 reveals that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and then all Israel will be saved. This future salvation of Israel will be a testimony to God's unchanging faithfulness and His power to fulfill His promises.

In the meantime, Gentile believers are called to view Israel with humility and gratitude. Romans 11:17-18 warns against boasting over the natural branches, reminding us that we do not support the root, but the root supports us. God's use of Israel as a nation, despite their rebellion, underscores His sovereignty and His ability to bring good out of disobedience, ultimately working all things together for His purposes (Romans 8:28).

While Israel's journey has been fraught with rebellion and unbelief, their story is far from over. God's promises to Israel are enduring, and their eventual restoration will be a powerful testament to His unwavering faithfulness. As believers, we are called to recognize the mystery of God's plan, embracing both our role in His kingdom and His eternal covenant with Israel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

If we don't believe this then we are arguing with God. We can't change the basic rules of the English language.

Singular personal pronouns​

A personal pronoun is singular if it refers to exactly one person or thing. The most commonly used singular personal pronouns are:

• First person: I, me
• Second person: you
• Third person: she, her, he, him, it

We could also try to apply rules of the English language to the reference to "the man of God" in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and insist that it's talking about an individual man of God, but that would not be wise. I don't buy your line of reasoning here. Have you ever read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16? What does Paul say there? That understanding God's word is based on having a command of the English language? No, I don't think so. I recall Paul saying that understanding God's word requires spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit.

How about this rule. There is no reference to "the temple of God" in scripture that doesn't reference a temple that God Himself would consider to be His temple, so we should not consider any temple that God Himself would not consider to be His temple "the temple of God".

So, tell me, what future physical temple could possibly be considered "the temple of God"? How about the rule of interpreting scripture with scripture? Are you using that here?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The notion that God abandoned Israel's covenantal promises when they crucified Christ is not supported by Scripture.

I agree. But, I think what you are either missing or forgetting is this:

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

And this:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The covenantal promises that God made to Israel apply to Gentile believers as well, according to Paul. This was a mystery in OT times, but was revealed in NT times. We (Gentile believers) are "fellowheirs" with Israelite believers of the promises of God which Paul says were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ, which are those who are the spiritual children of God and spiritual seed of Abraham.

 

[Paradise Haven]

So, tell me, what future physical temple could possibly be considered "the temple of God"? How about the rule of interpreting scripture with scripture? Are you using that here?

Future Physical Temple: Many traditional interpretations suggest that the "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 refers to a future literal temple in Jerusalem. This view is supported by passages such as Ezekiel 40-48, which describe a detailed vision of a future temple. Jesus also alluded to a future temple in Matthew 24:15 when He referred to the "abomination of desolation" standing in the holy place, which many interpret as occurring in a rebuilt temple. Revelation 11:1-2 mentions a temple in Jerusalem, where John is instructed to measure it, which further supports the idea of a future physical temple.

Interpreting Scripture with Scripture: The principle of interpreting scripture with scripture helps us reconcile the physical and spiritual dimensions of the temple. For instance, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 6:16 emphasize that believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, indicating a spiritual aspect. However, these passages do not necessarily negate the possibility of a future physical temple. They highlight the transformation of God's dwelling from a physical building to the hearts of believers but do not exclude the future role of a literal temple.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Future Physical Temple: Many traditional interpretations suggest that the "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 refers to a future literal temple in Jerusalem. This view is supported by passages such as Ezekiel 40-48, which describe a detailed vision of a future temple. Jesus also alluded to a future temple in Matthew 24:15 when He referred to the "abomination of desolation" standing in the holy place, which many interpret as occurring in a rebuilt temple. Revelation 11:1-2 mentions a temple in Jerusalem, where John is instructed to measure it, which further supports the idea of a future physical temple.

Those interpretations are false. It is not reasonable to think that some future physical temple could possibly be considered "the temple of God". Only a temple that God Himself would consider to be His temple can be called "the temple of God" and He no longer dwells in temples made with hands.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Interpreting Scripture with Scripture: The principle of interpreting scripture with scripture helps us reconcile the physical and spiritual dimensions of the temple. For instance, 1 Corinthians 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 6:16 emphasize that believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit, indicating a spiritual aspect. However, these passages do not necessarily negate the possibility of a future physical temple. They highlight the transformation of God's dwelling from a physical building to the hearts of believers but do not exclude the future role of a literal temple.

If you believe that a future temple could be considered "the temple of God", then you need to explain how exactly it would be God's temple that God Himself will consider to be His temple.

 

[Paradise Haven]

I agree. But, I think what you are either missing or forgetting is this:

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

And this:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The covenantal promises that God made to Israel apply to Gentile believers as well, according to Paul. This was a mystery in OT times, but was revealed in NT times. We (Gentile believers) are "fellowheirs" with Israelite believers of the promises of God which Paul says were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ, which are those who are the spiritual children of God and spiritual seed of Abraham.

Amen and I don't disagree with anything written here. The 144,000 are jews only and Revelation 7:9 is everyone else (Jews and Gentiles, at least I hope, because some hold that 144,000 are the only Jews being saved.) Two reasons I believe this:

1.) 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

2 Peter 1:20-21, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2.) Since we know point #1 is true, why would God specifically mention 12 Tribes of National Israel if He didn't mean it.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Amen and I don't disagree with anything written here. The 144,000 are jews only and Revelation 7:9 is everyone else (Jews and Gentiles, at least I hope, because some hold that 144,000 are the only Jews being saved.) Two reasons I believe this:

1.) 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

2 Peter 1:20-21, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2.) Since we know point #1 is true, why would God specifically mention 12 Tribes of National Israel if He didn't mean it.

Well, we're talking about a highly symbolic book here. But, I have no problem with seeing the 144,000 as Christians who are Jews if that's what is meant. They are called firstfruits (Revelation 14:4), so they very well could be the ones James wrote to in his letter:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting....18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[Paradise Haven]

Those interpretations are false. It is not reasonable to think that some future physical temple could possibly be considered "the temple of God". Only a temple that God Himself would consider to be His temple can be called "the temple of God" and He no longer dwells in temples made with hands.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;


If you believe that a future temple could be considered "the temple of God", then you need to explain how exactly it would be God's temple that God Himself will consider to be His temple.

What is John measuring here Revelation 11:1-2

 

[Paradise Haven]

Well, we're talking about a highly symbolic book here. But, I have no problem with seeing the 144,000 as Christians who are Jews if that's what is meant. They are called firstfruits (Revelation 14:4), so they very well could be the ones James wrote to in his letter:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting....18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

When they are born again Christians they are no longer considered Jew or Gentile. But the fact would still remain genealogically that they would be from one of the original 12 tribes, afterall, Revelation 21:12 says they are the foundation of the New Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What is John measuring here Revelation 11:1-2

First of all, I've been saying that a future physical temple cannot be considered the temple of God because such a temple would not be one that God Himself would consider to be His temple. Can you address that, please? How can any future physical temple be God's temple?

Why do you suppose Paul said this:

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

These are things to consider before trying to interpret Revelation 11:1-2. Anyway, here is how I understand it.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

First of all, the book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. I'm not saying every word in it is symbolic, but there's more symbolism there then a lot of people realize, in my opinion. So, what conclusions would we draw from taking this literally? Well, for one thing it would mean that somehow there would be a future physical temple of God despite Paul calling us (the church) the temple of God and despite Paul saying that God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

But, scripture never contradicts itself, of course. So, how can we interpret this passage without contradicting other scripture? By understanding that it's symbolic, which is not farfetched to believe considering how much symbolism is in the book. If we took it literally, it would mean John was inexplicably measuring a physical temple, its altar and even "them that worship therein". What would this mean literally, that he's measuring the heights and weights of people in a physical temple? That's obviously ridiculous. Or that he's counting how many people are inside a physical temple? What would be the point of that?

No, I think this is symbolically referring to the church and John is symbolically indicating what people are in the church and what people are not. Those who are not are the "ethnos" that are outside the temple. The Greek word "ethnos" is translated as "Gentiles" in this verse, but the word has several different definitions, one of which is "heathen". I think it should have been translated as "heathen" because believers in the temple of God/church are being contrasted with unbelievers outside of the temple of God/church here.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When they are born again Christians they are no longer considered Jew or Gentile. But the fact would still remain genealogically that they would be from one of the original 12 tribes, afterall, Revelation 21:12 says they are the foundation of the New Jerusalem.

Right. I have no problem with this interpretation. The gospel was first preached in Israel so the first converts were Jews. They were the first fruits (James 1:18) and that is what the 144,000 are called in Revelation 14:4. With that said, we shouldn't do what some do by isolating the 144,000 from the multitude referenced in Revelation 7:9 as if God has 2 different groups of people. No, we know that together, Jew and Gentile believers are one body in Christ.

 

[Paradise Haven]

First of all, I've been saying that a future physical temple cannot be considered the temple of God because such a temple would not be one that God Himself would consider to be His temple. Can you address that, please? How can any future physical temple be God's temple?

Why do you suppose Paul said this:

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

These are things to consider before trying to interpret Revelation 11:1-2. Anyway, here is how I understand it.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

First of all, the book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. I'm not saying every word in it is symbolic, but there's more symbolism there then a lot of people realize, in my opinion. So, what conclusions would we draw from taking this literally? Well, for one thing it would mean that somehow there would be a future physical temple of God despite Paul calling us (the church) the temple of God and despite Paul saying that God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

But, scripture never contradicts itself, of course. So, how can we interpret this passage without contradicting other scripture? By understanding that it's symbolic, which is not farfetched to believe considering how much symbolism is in the book. If we took it literally, it would mean John was inexplicably measuring a physical temple, its altar and even "them that worship therein". What would this mean literally, that he's measuring the heights and weights of people in a physical temple? That's obviously ridiculous. Or that he's counting how many people are inside a physical temple? What would be the point of that?

No, I think this is symbolically referring to the church and John is symbolically indicating what people are in the church and what people are not. Those who are not are the "ethnos" that are outside the temple. The Greek word "ethnos" is translated as "Gentiles" in this verse, but the word has several different definitions, one of which is "heathen". I think it should have been translated as "heathen" because believers in the temple of God/church are being contrasted with unbelievers outside of the temple of God/church here.

Well then we would have to ask if the future "abomination of desolation" is not in a physical temple then where is it taking place?

The "abomination of desolation" is a significant prophetic concept mentioned in the Bible, particularly in the context of end-times prophecy and eschatology. The term originates from Daniel 9:27, 11:31, and 12:11, and is also referenced by Jesus in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14.

In the Book of Daniel, the "abomination of desolation" refers to a desecration of the Jewish temple, an event marked by the installation of an idol or an act of sacrilege that brings about desolation and profound defilement. Historically, this was first fulfilled by the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes IV, a Seleucid king who, in 167 BC, set up an altar to Zeus in the Jerusalem temple and sacrificed a pig, an act considered abominable to the Jewish faith. This event is viewed as a foreshadowing or type of a future, more significant event.

Jesus, in His discourse on the Mount of Olives, refers to the "abomination of desolation" as a future event that will signal the onset of great tribulation (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14). This suggests that the original event involving Antiochus was a precursor to a more profound and far-reaching fulfillment. Jesus’ reference aligns with Daniel’s prophecy, indicating a future time when a similar desecration will occur, signifying the imminent arrival of end-time events and the period of tribulation.

The term refers to a pivotal moment when a significant act of sacrilege occurs within a sacred space, leading to profound spiritual and physical consequences. This event is often associated with the rise of an end-times figure, commonly referred to as the Antichrist, who will set up an abominable figure or system within a restored temple in Jerusalem. The “abomination of desolation” thus represents a climactic point of rebellion against God, marking the commencement of intense suffering and persecution for believers. It serves as a critical signpost in eschatological teaching, indicating the need for vigilance, preparedness, and faithfulness in anticipation of the fulfillment of God’s redemptive promises.

 

[Paradise Haven]

With that said, we shouldn't do what some do by isolating the 144,000 from the multitude referenced in Revelation 7:9 as if God has 2 different groups of people.

I agree now and sorry for making that distinction.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Right. I have no problem with this interpretation. The gospel was first preached in Israel so the first converts were Jews. They were the first fruits (James 1:18) and that is what the 144,000 are called in Revelation 14:4. With that said, we shouldn't do what some do by isolating the 144,000 from the multitude referenced in Revelation 7:9 as if God has 2 different groups of people. No, we know that together, Jew and Gentile believers are one body in Christ.

The 144,000 First-fruits became a subset among the later unnumbered group of saints standing in resurrected righteousness before the throne of God in Rev. 7:9. The 144,000 First-fruits of Rev. 14:4 were the first group of saints to be resurrected from the grave - the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who rose from out of those broken-open graves around Jerusalem on the same day that Christ arose from the dead.

These 144,000 Jewish tribal First-fruits were not the only ones who would be raised from the grave - they only composed the "FIRST resurrection" group of resurrected saints. They would eventually be joined by others at Christ's second coming, who altogether composed the great unnumbered group who came out of every nation, kindred, people, and tongue, all standing before the throne of God and the Lamb in heaven.

 

[Tigger Boy]

The notion that God abandoned Israel's covenantal promises when they crucified Christ is not supported by Scripture. Instead, the Bible consistently affirms the continuity of God's promises to Israel, even into the end times. Romans 11:1-2 states, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." This passage explicitly denies that God has rejected Israel, affirming His enduring commitment to them.

PH, sorry I've been so long to respond. Have been away from the house/laptop for awhile. Nonetheless, I have a response, please pay attention to what I have emboldened.

IN response. First you completely ignored (Rev. 7:2 and 10:7) which are within the prophecies of Rev., pertaining to the 144,000, stating they are servant/prophets selected of God prior to the any harm coming upon the earth in the end days. Any interpretation that interprets them differently, however eloquent that might appear is wrong at it’s core.

Following is why I disagree with your above statement:

The wonderful thing about the eternal gospel is that whosoever will may come and enjoy the benefits of God’s salvation. As the Creator of mankind, God is not exclusive; instead, He is inclusive. At Mount Sinai the nation of Israel agreed to do whatever the Lord commanded. (Exodus 24:3) It is most important to understand the nature and structure of God’s covenant because God’s covenant with Israel was conditional from the beginning. Look at two passages (there are many) from the Old Testament showing that the covenant between God and the nation of Israel was conditional:

1. “Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” (Exodus 19:3–6, italics mine)

2. “If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. . . . However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you.” (Deuteronomy 28:1,15, italics mine)

Fifteen hundred years after establishing His covenant with Israel at Mount Sinai, Jesus came to Earth as the Messiah. The very nation (Acts 3:15) that He had chosen to be His representative on Earth rejected and killed Him. “He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.” (John 1:11; Luke 20:9-16) The Old Testament is unmistakably clear! For 15 centuries, God did everything possible to get Israel to fulfill His objectives, but Israel rebelled at every turn. (Ezekiel 23, Romans 11:20–21) Israel’s rejection of Jesus as the Messiah was “the straw that broke the camel’s back.” The eternal gospel of Jesus could not be given to the world by a rebellious group of trustees. How could Israel teach the world about faith in God when a majority of people in Israel refused to live by faith? So, Jesus, the Benefactor, terminated His covenant with the nation of Israel by pronouncing this benediction: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often [over the past 1,500 years] I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house [your nation] is left to you desolate [of God’s covenant, blessings and presence]. For I tell you, you will not see me [extending grace to this house ever] again until you [are forced by overwhelming circumstances to] say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord [at the Second Coming*].” (Matthew 23:37–39, insertions and italics mine, *See Matthew 26:64 and Revelation 1:7.)

A few days after Jesus terminated His covenant with the nation of Israel, He implemented a New Covenant (Luke 22:20) because Jesus wants the benefits of His gospel to go throughout the whole Earth. Now, the New Covenant differs from the Old Covenant in two critical ways.

First, instead of choosing a nation of people to serve as trustees of the gospel, the New Covenant opens the door and allows “whosoever will” to become a trustee of the gospel. In the New Covenant, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female (these distinctions had been important in the Old Covenant). (Romans 10:12)

Under the New Covenant, God approves every sinner who chooses to live by faith to serve as a trustee of the gospel of Jesus. Said another way, the Old Covenant pertained to a selected group of trustees, but the New Covenant pertains to a self-selecting group of trustees. One could also say that after Israel failed (Plan A), God created even a better covenant for those who would choose to participate in Plan B. (Romans 11:15, Hebrews 8:6) Keep in mind that a new covenant was required when the covenant with Israel was terminated because the plan of salvation operates as a living trust there is a Benefactor, trustees, and beneficiaries.

The second difference between the Old Covenant and New Covenant is profoundly important: The two covenants have different laws, different promises and different prophecies. Mixing or merging the terms and conditions of these two covenants will produce disastrous results. Millions of Protestants are hopelessly confused about Bible prophecy (including what will occur during the Great Tribulation) because pastors and theologians are mixing and merging the terms and conditions of the two covenants.

The prophecies and promises given to ancient Israel under the Old Covenant will not be fulfilled because God terminated that covenant with the nation of Israel. Even though God abandoned the nation of Israel as trustees, any Jew who surrenders to the gospel of Christ by faith in Him can receive salvation because the New Covenant does not distinguish between Jews and Gentiles. (Early Jewish converts understood this concept well. See Romans 11:23.)

With these thoughts in mind Your understanding of (Rom. 11:1-2) is misleading. God knocked Paul off his horse in route to kill new believers in Christ, sent him into the wilderness for a spell, where God revealed to him the errors of the Jewish mindset, which he realized, and set him on the path of taking the everlasting gospel to all of mankind, either Jew, creek, Roman or whatever.

At which time Paul, as well as all the apostles before him steped away from their Jewish faith, because progressive truth had arrived and the Jewish Nation corporately, due to the hard headedness of the spiritual leaders, preferred darkness. To claim that Paul in defending his inherited religion in the texts above is very, misleading and contrary to the new faith he and all the apostles gave there lives to spread.

Following is (Romans 11:1-2) with the above understanding added in as Paul would have understood it.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people [those choosing to life by faith]? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin [Like you, having once believed my inherited religion was right], God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." [all who would choose to life by faith, regardless of biological origin, me and you included]

You might be surprised to learn that Jesus’ new trustees are also called “Israel” because He made three unconditional promises to Abraham. To fulfill these unconditional promises, Jesus had to redefine Israel; that is, Jesus redefined the “heirs of Abraham.” Consider this verse: “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed [the Greek word for seed is sperma], and [therefore] heirs according to the promise [that will be fulfilled at the appointed time].” (Galatians 3:29, insertion mine) “It is not as though God’s word had failed [when He established the New Covenant].

 

[alertandawake]

I too wonder at this, what could be so positive about this mark that makes the masses want to take it ?

Could this mark be a healer of a virus that is yet to come as I reckon Covid 19 was just test run ???

This is a really good question.

Why did the people consent to get the mark of the beast in the first place ? So many seem to think that the people won't be tricked into getting this thing (whatever it may be) but the details provided in Revelation 19.20 makes it clear deception is involved.

Thing is, whatever this thing is, people won't be able to function society unless they accept it.

The thing what most people cannot see concerning the buying and selling aspect of the mark of the beast is why do people need it? This "mark" has a function that enables people to be part of society. So question is what is its function that enables people to interact with one another?

 

[Paradise Haven]

I too wonder at this, what could be so positive about this mark that makes the masses want to take it ?

Could this mark be a healer of a virus that is yet to come as I reckon Covid 19 was just test run ???

The speculation about the mark of the beast often revolves around how it could be so appealing or essential that people willingly accept it. Revelation 13:16-17 describes the mark as something that people will receive on their right hand or forehead, enabling them to buy and sell. This suggests the mark will be seen as necessary for participating in economic and social activities.

Given the global impact of events like the COVID-19 pandemic, it is conceivable that a future crisis, possibly even a virus, could drive people to accept such a mark. If the mark were presented as a solution to a dire problem—such as a pandemic far worse than COVID-19—people might see it as beneficial or even essential for survival. For example, if a future virus were to emerge that had a significantly higher mortality rate or severe consequences, a mark that provided protection, access to medical care, or essential goods could be perceived very positively.

This line of thinking aligns with the idea that the mark might be more than just a symbol or a number. It could be integrated with advanced technology, such as a vaccine passport, digital ID, or health tracker, which people might feel compelled to accept to safeguard their health and well-being, and to maintain their lifestyle and freedoms. This integration with daily life would make the mark appear necessary and advantageous.

However, it's important to approach such speculations with caution. While it’s intriguing to consider the mark of the beast in light of current or future global crises, the exact nature of the mark remains uncertain and highly symbolic in the context of biblical prophecy. The key takeaway is the Bible’s warning against such a mark and the importance of spiritual discernment and allegiance to God over any worldly system or solution.

 

[Apple Sky]

The thing what most people cannot see concerning the buying and selling aspect of the mark of the beast is why do people need it? This "mark" has a function that enables people to be part of society

What is that everybody needs ? Food & water ....... Watch for the black horse.

 

[Tigger Boy]

The 144,000 First-fruits became a subset among the later unnumbered group of saints standing in resurrected righteousness before the throne of God in Rev. 7:9. The 144,000 First-fruits of Rev. 14:4 were the first group of saints to be resurrected from the grave - the Matthew 27:52-53 saints who rose from out of those broken-open graves around Jerusalem on the same day that Christ arose from the dead.

TR, I have posted earlier on this thread that ones interpretation on any subject must not put the Bible in a state of eternal conflict. If it does then they should rethink their interpretation/understanding to restore harmony, for the Bible does not contradict itself.

I believe many interpretations shared on this thread do just that. I will share all the facts about the 144,000 because they all need to be factored in if we desire our understanding to be in perfect harmony with the Bible teachings. The more facts we gather the better our understanding will be.

(Rev. 7:1-4) This passages introduces the 144,000. They are sealed/chosen by God, before the four angles bring harm upon the earth, sea and trees. We are informed they are “servants” that will serve God. (Rev. 10:7) informs us they will serve God as prophets. The office as a prophet according to scripture is one in which God appoints one to.

These servant/prophets are chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel. Is the term “Israel” to be understood as literal, symbolic or analogous, the three types of language used in apocalyptic prophecy. This is very controversial question. Consider (Rev. 14:1-5) as more info is given. Here we learn they are virgins, no lies were found in their mouths, they were without fault, and they are the first fruits. The word “firstfruits” means, “not only first, but also the best of the harvest”.

I have posted on this thread how literal Israel failed to uphold their unilateral covenant with God as trustees of the gospel, and at the end of the 490 year of probationary period of (Dan. 9:20-27) God terminated their role as trustees and it was given to the Christians. Harmony is maintained only if we understand that God would choose 144,000 servant/prophets out of all of mankind, those who are willing to live by faith in Him, Abraham’s seed, heirs to the promise. see (Gal. 3: 28,29; Rom. 10:12)

There are those who understand there is no distinction between the Servant/prophets and the numberless multitude, creating eternal conflict within prophecy, but prophecy informs us otherwise. (Rev. 11:18; 16:4-6; 18:24) makes a clear distinction between the saints/holy people and the prophets. To bring harmony to the prophecies one must understand this distinction too.

(Rev. 16) Speaks of the seven bowl judgements (the full wrath of God) that will be poured out on the wicked just before the return of Christ. In vss. 4&5 it states the wicked deserve to drink blood, because they shed the blood of the saints and prophets. Therefore, one must understand that the 144,000 will be serving God in the closing events, because those who kill them will suffer in the seven bowl judgements. To understand it differently puts the prophecies in a state of eternal conflict.

It is said with every truth that God has Satin puts forth many counterfeits. Therefore, Satin often leads us into interpretations that put the Bible in a state of eternal conflict. For those of us finding ourselves in this snare It will take humility to change our way of thinking, to overcome, pride and a hardened hart, in order to except further light which God reveals to us.