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What is the Mark of the Beast ?

3 Resurrections

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The sources that cover the Tyrian shekel and its use by Herod, its description, and when its requirement in the temple ceased are all over the place if you just google "Tyrian Shekel".

Try "Jerusalem's Tyrian Shekel - a Lesson in Priorities" or www.begedivri.com/shekel/teachings/meshorer.htm

Or the website CoinWeek.com, with the article "Graven Images and the coins of Ancient Tyre" by David Hendin, the VP of the American Numismatic Society.

Or the numismatics discussion board on the website forumancientcoins.com with their post entitled "Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem".

Or this link: http://www.bible.ca/coins/Jesus-coi...n-Shekel-official-temple-sanctuary-tax-coins/ which is an older link that might not direct you to the right place.

Really, you just need to do some digging on the history of this particular Tyrian shekel coin for yourself. It was the Jewish Talmud which required that the annual Temple Tax payment be made with a silver coin of the highest purity, which the Tyrian shekel was consistently known for. In spite of the forbidden images and profane inscriptions which broke God's commands concerning making idolatrous images, the priesthood considered that the high silver content of these Tyrian shekel coins for use in the temple outweighed the laws of God against those images.
 
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Josheb

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The sources that cover the Tyrian shekel and its use by Herod, its description, and when its requirement in the temple ceased are all over the place if you just google "Tyrian Shekel".

Try "Jerusalem's Tyrian Shekel - a Lesson in Priorities" or www.begedivri.com/shekel/teachings/meshorer.htm

Or the website CoinWeek.com, with the article "Graven Images and the coins of Ancient Tyre" by David Hendin, the VP of the American Numismatic Society.

Or the numismatics discussion board on the website forumancientcoins.com with their post entitled "Shekels of Tyre minted in Jerusalem".

Or this link: http://www.bible.ca/coins/Jesus-coi...n-Shekel-official-temple-sanctuary-tax-coins/ which is an older link that might not direct you to the right place.

Really, you just need to do some digging on the history of this particular Tyrian shekel coin for yourself. It was the Jewish Talmud which required that the annual Temple Tax payment be made with a silver coin of the highest purity, which the Tyrian shekel was consistently known for. In spite of the forbidden images and profane inscriptions which broke God's commands concerning making idolatrous images, the priesthood considered that the high silver content of these Tyrian shekel coins for use in the temple outweighed the laws of God against those images.
Thank you for the source. Much appreciated. I recommend you provide the hyperlink any time you post about this shekel being the mark. Don't leave the readers wondering where this came from and whether or not you're inventing stuff to justify your (partial-)preterism.

I do appreciate the link but after reading the article I remain firm in my prior statement: any specific identification of Rev. 13's "mark" is speculation. I notice the article does not itself argue the shekel is the "mark." The evidence of the Tyrian shekel is persuasive, but not convincing. It may be the mark, but there's nothing definitive in that source or the shekel's existence proving the matter. Having said that, I will use this source myself as possible evidence, but not proof. It's also an example of what I was endeavoring to prove in my dissent of the op: whatever the mark was/is/may be..... it has to be something the original first century reader would understand. A tattoo or scar, for example would qualify where a computer chip, cell number, or DNA chain do not. A coin qualifies.









Note to others: I greatly appreciate and value what @3 Resurrections had done in this exchange. First, he was courteous and respectful, even when I erred understanding his posts. Second, he answered questions asked in a timely manner. I didn't have to ask the same question over and over, again and again (Titus 3:9-11). Third, while he and I may still disagree his source is actually worth consideration and not an exclusively doctrinally-biased source to which he blindly subscribes and likewise asks everyone else to blindly subscribe. 3 Resurrections and I trade views in multiple forums, and we do have our disputes (I, for my part, can be quite "exacting," according to others ;)), but he's conducted himself admirably here. That deserves commendable mention.

.
 
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I will use this source myself as possible evidence, but not proof. It's also an example of what I was endeavoring to prove in my dissent of the op: whatever the mark was/is/may be..... it has to be something the original first century reader would understand. A tattoo or scar, for example would qualify where a computer chip, cell number, or DNA chain do not. A coin qualifies.
That is totally fair of you, Josheb. I appreciate your willingness to check into what others have written about the Tyrian shekel. Hopefully, no one will automatically accept the connection I am making between the Tyrian shekel and the Sea Beast mark without deeply considering for themselves whether it all aligns with scripture or not. Where we do not have absolute proof of a certain viewpoint, we can weigh the circumstantial evidence of history to evaluate if it fits the scriptures or not. At some point, (just as in a court of law), a case can become evident beyond a reasonable doubt. Can I prove without any doubt whatever that the Tyrian shekel was the "mark"? No, I can't, but the stack of circumstantial evidence all pointing that way is very compelling - at least for me.

Regardless of where we diverge on our views, I do believe you and I are on the same page when it comes to audience relevance of Revelation's prophetic passages. The content of the entire book of Revelation was meant "to SHOW" to those first-century readers what would "shortly come to pass" in their own generation. As far as I can tell, you and I share a firm commitment to the language John used as it applied to whom it was written at that time.
 
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Josheb

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The content of the entire book of Revelation was meant "to SHOW" to those first-century readers what would "shortly come to pass" in their own generation. As far as I can tell, you and I share a firm commitment to the language John used as it applied to whom it was written at that time. (emphasis Josheb's)
Yes, in general, I agree. I am partial-preterist and believe most of Revelation occurred in and around the first century destruction of Jerusalem. I would split the proverbial hair over the use of the "entire" because in Rev. 1:19 the book itself states some of its contents had already occurred and some of it existed at the time it was written. Those portions of the book were not what would "shortly come to pass." Only the portion that "which will take place after these things" was in the future.

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

  1. Things John had seen.
  2. Things that were at the time of the revelation.
  3. Things that would take place after those things.

So, while it may be incorrect to divide the text into literal thirds, approximately a third of the book directly pertains to events in John's future (whether near or far). Roughly two-thirds of its contents had either already occurred (like the woman giving birth) or then already existed (like, perhaps, the Turian shekel ;)). Only a little more or less than a third was "shortly come to pass." I also prefer "quickly" over "shortly" because of connotative significance, but I don't generally split hairs over that.

The parts that had been (already) seen and the parts that were could normally be discussed or even debated, but that conversation never happens with a modern futurist (like those defending this op). For example, Isaiah, the gospels, Jude, and other verses in the epistolary tell us Satan had already been stripped of his glory and was held in bondage, defeat by and subjected to Christ's power and authority but rarely do I ever read of anyone (preterist or not) thinking Rev. 20's binding is in the past prior to the penning of Revelation. I've had difficulty broaching the topic with amils, postmils, and idealists. Yet, if the principle of using other scripture to understand scripture is valid, then the already-existing binding of Satan would have been something John had seen for himself and understood as a thing "which are."

Another point of common breakdown in conversation is the ever-ubiquitous, "When did that happen?" that you've endeavored to address. The fact is if scripture explicitly states something was "near" or "at hand" then it happened - whether we know how, when, or where or not. Since the canon of scripture is closed there was no post-70 AD scripture to explain the near and at hand. The question itself is profoundly foolish. The idea is that if I could provide proof then they'd readily change their views but that never happens. The evidence is never proof and no matter how convincing the premise they'd readily abandon their eschatology and change to something more-evidenced was disingenuous from the beginning. All claims of "It has not happened," more accurately and honestly mean, "It has not happened according to my interpretation and doctrinal biases."

Forgive my digression but I thought it might be a beneficial summary to address some of the presuppositions governing ops like this one (and discussions of eschatological matter in general).

I'm curious: Have you ever read Geerhardus Vos' "The Pauline Eschatology"? You might like and agree with it. It sort of anticipates E. P. Sanders and N. T. Wright (although I do not recall either man referring to Vos' view) but greater orthodoxy. His writing is labored so it's a tough read (it was for me, at least) but I found it worth the effort.
 
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I would split the proverbial hair over the use of the "entire" because in Rev. 1:19 the book itself states some of its contents had already occurred and some of it existed at the time it was written. Those portions of the book were not what would "shortly come to pass." Only the portion that "which will take place after these things" was in the future.
And I agree with that "hair-splitting". Revelation's events were divided between the past, present, and future things "about to be hereafter" in John's days. And of course, "showing" and revealing to God's servants in John's days those future things to come was a promise which Christ had also made to the Apostles earlier in John 16:13, "...when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come."

The prophecies which were NOT shown and revealed, but which were "sealed up" in Revelation 10:4 - these were the prophecies which were reserved for later fulfillment further down the road, past the immediate first-century generation. Everything else in Revelation concerning "near" future events that were being unsealed and revealed to God's servants in those days - these prophecies fit into the category of future things that were "about to be hereafter" in John's own generation.

The dividing line between the "near" future things for John's first-century generation and any distant future things was whether those prophecies were either being unsealed at that time or "sealed up" in Rev. 10:4 for a much later time (such as for our own days). This "sealing up" is how Daniel's visions of the distant future had once been presented (Dan. 12:4 & 9), and John in Rev. 10:4 was presenting those particular "sealed up" visions of the distant future in the very same manner.

...rarely do I ever read of anyone (preterist or not) thinking Rev. 20's binding is in the past prior to the penning of Revelation. I've had difficulty broaching the topic with amils, postmils, and idealists. Yet, if the principle of using other scripture to understand scripture is valid, then the already-existing binding of Satan would have been something John had seen for himself and understood as a thing "which are."
Make that instead that "John had seen for himself and understood the binding of Satan as a thing which he had seen in the past."
The Rev. 20 millennium WAS a past event when John began writing Revelation. I am one of that rare breed that sees the Rev. 20 millennium as being "finished", "fulfilled", and "expired" with the "First resurrection" event in AD 33 which included Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints.

The two texts of Rev. 12:12 compared with Rev. 20:3 & 7 are all it takes to prove that the Rev. 20 millennium had ended before John was writing Revelation. Satan was to be loosed for a "little season" after the millennium had ended, and John warned his own first-century audience that Satan had then presently come down to them in great wrath, knowing that this "short time" was all he had left. The Rev. 20:3 "little season" and the Rev. 12:12 "short time" were speaking of the very same time period of Satan's renewed deception of the nations after the millennium had "expired" and was "fulfilled".

The idea is that if I could provide proof then they'd readily change their views but that never happens. The evidence is never proof and no matter how convincing the premise they'd readily abandon their eschatology and change to something more-evidenced was disingenuous from the beginning. All claims of "It has not happened," more accurately and honestly mean, "It has not happened according to my interpretation and doctrinal biases.
Soooo true. This same reaction shows up over and over on all the forums. It is a rare soul that is willing to consider that they might have been instructed incorrectly by a well-meaning pastor, professor, or early church father's writings. My constant prayer for the past 12 years has been, "Lord, don't let me believe a lie...I want to know WHAT you did, and WHEN you did it. Teach me, and I will believe you."

I'm curious: Have you ever read Geerhardus Vos' "The Pauline Eschatology"? You might like and agree with it. It sort of anticipates E. P. Sanders and N. T. Wright (although I do not recall either man referring to Vos' view) but greater orthodoxy. His writing is labored so it's a tough read (it was for me, at least) but I found it worth the effort.
This isn't a work I'm familiar with, but I will check it out. Always looking for a good referral. I should tell you though, that it will place second in importance to what Paul actually said himself. Paul admitted in Philippians 3:10-11 that he was rather eager to be martyred, and hoped to be put to death early enough so that "by any means" he could arrive at the time for the next bodily resurrection coming up soon. You could say that Paul had a "death wish" of sorts. God granted Paul's desire, since Paul was put to death in AD 67, with only 3 years until Paul was bodily resurrected. I believe Paul knew the very day that this resurrection was coming. With his Pharisee background training, Paul certainly knew his Daniel scriptures, and could count the 1,335 days from the date of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in late AD 66 to determine that approaching date of Christ's return in AD 70.
 
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Josheb

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And I agree with that "hair-splitting". Revelation's events were divided between the past, present, and future things "about to be hereafter" in John's days.............
Yes, and as you and I see in the other forum, there are individuals who say nothing in Revelation has transpired. He/they will not even concede Jesus is currently enthroned.

So..... (and again this is somewhat digressive so I'll keep it brief) the logically necessary conclusion is that modern futurism (like the one espoused in this op) isn't just a completely new and different view of the end times, it is also a theology that holds to and teaches a completely new and different Christology, one much different than what has been espoused in Christian thought, doctrine, and practice for twenty centuries! When the particulars are fleshed out (no pun intended) then it becomes increasingly clearer and clearer modern two-peoples, two-kingdoms, modern futurism, especially the separated-rapture versions also teach a different soteriology and a different ecclesiology than that which has been held (and agreed upon) in Christian thought, doctrine, and practice for two millennia (or more).

The point being this: denying the plain reading of Revelation 1:19 invariably leads to a lot of bad consequences in other areas of (sound) theology.
 
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3 Resurrections

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So..... (and again this is somewhat digressive so I'll keep it brief) the logically necessary conclusion is that modern futurism (like the one espoused in this op) isn't just a completely new and different view of the end times, it is also a theology that holds to and teaches a completely new and different Christology, one much different than what has been espoused in Christian thought, doctrine, and practice for twenty centuries!
Yes, an unfortunate result, leading to a rather defeatist attitude to one's faith, and a diminishment of the power of Christ to establish His kingdom on earth. It makes a lie of "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..."
 
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Tigger Boy

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It is a name. Cesar Nero.
Since the "mark" is yet it the future, and "Cesar Nero", died 2,000 yrs. ago, and the mark represents the name of the beast that will implement it at the time, after he comes up out of the earth. You think this Lamb Like beast will be Nero? If so, consider this beast is "Lamb like", (Rev. 11:13), whereas Nero was a very evil. Hardy Lamb like.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Since the "mark" is yet it the future, and "Cesar Nero", died 2,000 yrs. ago, and the mark represents the name of the beast that will implement it at the time, after he comes up out of the earth. You think this Lamb Like beast will be Nero? If so, consider this beast is "Lamb like", (Rev. 11:13), whereas Nero was a very evil. Hardy Lamb like.
The Mark of the beast is evil . There is also another Mark that God puts on His annointed. These marks are not physical, they are spiritual. The 666 is a way to identify the beast of that time in code.
 
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Tigger Boy

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The Mark of the beast is evil . There is also another Mark that God puts on His annointed. These marks are not physical, they are spiritual. The 666 is a way to identify the beast of that time in code.
In an earlier post you said it is a name, Cesar Nero. How did you come to that conclusion?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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In an earlier post you said it is a name, Cesar Nero. How did you come to that conclusion?
It is widely accepted if one is not a Dispensational Futurist. You can research the Preterist view on line.
 
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Tigger Boy

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It is widely accepted if one is not a Dispensational Futurist. You can research the Preterist view on line.
Maria, I did some research as you suggested on the Preterist interpretation of Rev., educational. Am I correct in understanding that as a Preterist you believe that Rev., up to 20:10 is historical, and the rest of Rev., is future events?

If so I better understand you previous statements.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Maria, I did some research as you suggested on the Preterist interpretation of Rev., educational. Am I correct in understanding that as a Preterist you believe that Rev., up to 20:10 is historical, and the rest of Rev., is future events?

If so I better understand you previous statements.
An easier way to put it, I belive all has been fulfilled except His Second comming. There is a faction in Preterism that claims Jesus Christ of Nazareth already came but I do not believe in that.
 
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Tigger Boy

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An easier way to put it, I belive all has been fulfilled except His Second comming. There is a faction in Preterism that claims Jesus Christ of Nazareth already came but I do not believe in that.
So you are a partial Preterist? Do you believe He will come in human form or in spirit? Do you believe in the secret rapture? Or do you believe there will be world wide harbingers prepairing the world for His return?
 
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In an earlier post you said it is a name, Cesar Nero. How did you come to that conclusion?
My understanding (and I am not an expert) is that this interpretation is an example of gematria, which is just a fancy word that describes assigning a numerical value to each letter, and adding up all the associated letters of a name to get a total ‘number’ for that name.

The Greek spelling of Ceasar Nero gives 666. The Latin spelling has one fewer letter so yields 616, and my understanding is that at least one ancient manuscript has 616 listed as the number of the beast.

I like this kind of interpretation because John’s Revelation is a letter to some specific churches, and presumably the letter is intended to actually mean something to the recipients in those churches at that time.

I only gave the fancy ‘gematria’ word so you can google it easier.

Similarly, 14 is the number for David. Perhaps that is why Matthew conveniently skips some of the people listed in the OT so that his geneology of Jesus is in groups of 14; it further emphasizes that Jesus is in the line of David. Or perhaps not. Take your pick.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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So you are a partial Preterist? Do you believe He will come in human form or in spirit? Do you believe in the secret rapture? Or do you believe there will be world wide harbingers prepairing the world for His return?
So you are a partial Preterist?
Yes
Do you believe He will come in human form or in spirit?
He will come back in the same manner and condition that He left.
Do you believe in the secret rapture?
No
Or do you believe there will be world wide harbingers prepairing the world for His return? Nope.
 
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Tigger Boy

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My understanding (and I am not an expert) is that this interpretation is an example of gematria, which is just a fancy word that describes assigning a numerical value to each letter, and adding up all the associated letters of a name to get a total ‘number’ for that name.

The Greek spelling of Ceasar Nero gives 666. The Latin spelling has one fewer letter so yields 616, and my understanding is that at least one ancient manuscript has 616 listed as the number of the beast.

I like this kind of interpretation because John’s Revelation is a letter to some specific churches, and presumably the letter is intended to actually mean something to the recipients in those churches at that time.

I only gave the fancy ‘gematria’ word so you can google it easier.

Similarly, 14 is the number for David. Perhaps that is why Matthew conveniently skips some of the people listed in the OT so that his geneology of Jesus is in groups of 14; it further emphasizes that Jesus is in the line of David. Or perhaps not. Take your pick.
Okay, appreciate your response. I did read earlier that Ceasar Nero, in Greek , had a numerical equivalent of 666. But then there are other names as well. Your statement in the third paragraph leads me to think, you also believe in the Preterist interpretation of Revelation. If so have you accepted this interpretation as an adult, studying it out, or is it a part of your inherited religion?
 
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The Mark of the Beast
And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark— the name of the beast or the number of its name. Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666.…

View attachment 350878

What is this Mark 666 the number of a man ?

Is it a chip ?
Is it a mobile phone ?
Is it a DNA change i.e the Blood ?

DNA is composed of 6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons, which equates to 666.

Or is it something spiritual ?
The "mark of the beast" from Revelation 13:16-18 as a symbolic representation of allegiance to the Antichrist and his system. The mark is not merely a physical sign but signifies a deeper spiritual and moral alignment with the Antichrist's authority and rebellion against God. He emphasizes that the exact nature of the mark is not fully known but could involve some form of identification or technology that controls economic activity, such as buying and selling.

From a broader theological perspective, the mark of the beast is often understood as a counterfeit to God's seal on His followers, representing loyalty and submission to a satanic power. This mark could manifest as a literal mark, an implanted chip, or other technology, reflecting advances in global surveillance and control. The mark is believed to originate from a political and religious system headed by the Antichrist, aiming to unify and dominate the world. The key concern for believers is not the physical form of the mark but the spiritual allegiance it signifies. Christians are warned to remain faithful to Christ and resist any system that demands worship or allegiance contrary to God's commands.
 
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Okay, appreciate your response. I did read earlier that Ceasar Nero, in Greek , had a numerical equivalent of 666. But then there are other names as well. Your statement in the third paragraph leads me to think, you also believe in the Preterist interpretation of Revelation. If so have you accepted this interpretation as an adult, studying it out, or is it a part of your inherited religion?
I only am familiar with gematria from study bibles and such. I have spent almost zero time and energy studying end-times theology, so I have no horse in this race. But I am very skeptical of interpretations that would only be possible hundreds or thousands of years after the original recipients would have read the letter. I am content with the eschatology in the Nicene Creed.

My theology is consistent with the Nicene Creed.

I only responded to this thread because I recently ran across this gematria again in a book I am reading (that is not about end times), and thought it might help a few folks look stuff up and make up their own minds.
 
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Tigger Boy

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He will come back in the same manner and condition that He left.
I too, believe He will return in human form, along with the host of angles. He remains in the heavens/feet do not touch the earth, and gathers up all the saints, living and the dead and takes them to heaven for a thousand years.

You don't believe there will be any word wide events marking Christ return, which is basically a unannounced return. A surprise to all.

Think on this. The worlds population is now exceeding 8 billion individuals, many cultures, many religions, most not christians, most not interested in even talking about spiritual things, because their lives are torn because of wars, drugs, divorce, financial problems, or weather related disasters, sickness, and terminal illnesses. The world is preoccupied on many fronts. However, God loves each and every one of us, He created us, loves us, and died for us all that we could have eternal life. The problem is most of the 8 billion are unaware of the eternal gospel. Certainly God knows this.

This is my question. Does a God of love for His creation just come and gather those who are prepared, or would He orchestrate world wide events as prophesied so that everyone hears the gospel, and then makes a choice as to except it or not, then He returns at the end of the prophesied events. Giving the living uninformed a last chance at salvation?
 
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