What is Romans overarching question?

[Fervent]

While at work today I kept thinking about Romans 9:14-16, and thinking about what the underlying message of "I will have mercy on who I will have mercy" truly is, since it seems to me there are two options. Either a)it's a statement concerned primarily with God excluding some from His mercy and remaining just or b)it's a statement about God including more than He has stipulated in His mercy and remaining just. The context of the discussion seems like it could go either direction, since it may be talking about some Jews being excluded despite being born Jews, or it could be about the promises given to Israel no longer being the exclusive inheritance of the Jews. What makes the difference, it seems to me, is the question that we think Romans as a whole is answering. To my mind, there are two possibilities that seem to dominate discussions on Romans. The first being that Romans is largely about answering the question "How does a man find salvation?" While the second possibility is that Romans is answering the question "How can God remain just while justifying sinners?" with a special emphasis on God justifying the gentile nations rather than avenging Israel.

What would you say the overarching question of Romans is? Or at least the portion of Romans mentioned, that is to say Romans 8-9?

 

[Grip Docility]

While at work today I kept thinking about Romans 9:14-16, and thinking about what the underlying message of "I will have mercy on who I will have mercy" truly is, since it seems to me there are two options. Either a)it's a statement concerned primarily with God excluding some from His mercy and remaining just or b)it's a statement about God including more than He has stipulated in His mercy and remaining just. The context of the discussion seems like it could go either direction, since it may be talking about some Jews being excluded despite being born Jews, or it could be about the promises given to Israel no longer being the exclusive inheritance of the Jews. What makes the difference, it seems to me, is the question that we think Romans as a whole is answering. To my mind, there are two possibilities that seem to dominate discussions on Romans. The first being that Romans is largely about answering the question "How does a man find salvation?" While the second possibility is that Romans is answering the question "How can God remain just while justifying sinners?" with a special emphasis on God justifying the gentile nations rather than avenging Israel.

What would you say the overarching question of Romans is? Or at least the portion of Romans mentioned, that is to say Romans 8-9?

Oddly enough, do you see the Parallels between Something Paul says, that Moses said?

Exodus 32:32 Now if You would only forgive their sin. But if not, please erase me from the book You have written.”

Romans 9:3 For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off[b] from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises.

 

[Aaron112]

with a special emphasis on God justifying the gentile nations rather than avenging Israel.

Vengeance is Mine , Sayeth Who ?

As for justifying gentile (heathen ) nations, that does not happen.

Gentiles , as God Pleases To Do, He may have mercy on. He may justify them.

But nations ? They are gathered against the Anointed, and will be destroyed.

 

[Fervent]

Vengeance is Mine , Sayeth Who ?

As for justifying gentile (heathen ) nations, that does not happen.

Gentiles , as God Pleases To Do, He may have mercy on. He may justify them.

But nations ? They are gathered against the Anointed, and will be destroyed.

Certainly there is a coming wrath, but by bringing in gentiles without requiring them become a part of the Jewish people through circumcision and submission to the law God effectively justified the nations(peoples). At the point that the letter to the Romans was written it was Israel that was being subject to wrath, with a greater outpouring coming in just a few years. So for the Roman Jews the question would very much likely have been how could God justify the gentile nations through the Messiah rather than the Messiah being an instrument of God's wrath against them.

 

[Aaron112]

God effectively justified the nations(peoples).

This is not ever shown in Scripture . Jesus did not die for nations. He died for people, including gentiles, but the nations remain outside of atonement or redemption.

 

[Fervent]

This is not ever shown in Scripture . Jesus did not die for nations. He died for people, including gentiles, but the nations remain outside of atonement or redemption.

You seem to be entirely missing my point, for something that is essentially irrelevent since nations are not things that exist separately from the people who make them up.

 

[Aaron112]

You seem to be entirely missing my point, for something that is essentially irrelevent since nations are not things that exist separately from the people who make them up.

It seemed to me you were trying to say whole nations would be converted and saved.

 

[Fervent]

It seemed to me you were trying to say whole nations would be converted and saved.

You're reading things that aren't there. When I say "nations" I'm using it in the way that 1st century Jews would have understood it, as in ethnicities. The basic issue I am discussing is the fact that no longer was salvation a matter of becoming part of the Jewish nation through becoming a circumcised proselyte. That the Jews were facing God's wrath, rather than the gentiles who had oppressed them. No where did I intimate that whole nations would be saved, that's something you read into what I have said.

 

[Aaron112]

No where did I intimate that whole nations would be saved, that's something you read into what I have said.

When someone said the NATION BRITAIN , or POLAND, was saved from the germans,
they not only meant some of the people, but the whole nation.
Thus, when you or anyone says a nation will be saved from hasatan, that is what it is, in ENGLISH,
even
if in Hebrew (which is better ) it doesn't mean the same thing.
Just like holy spirit in Hebrew does not mean what it means in English.

English is pretty sorry language I think, though I use it every day!

 

[Fervent]

When someone said the NATION BRITAIN , or POLAND, was saved from the germans,
they not only meant some of the people, but the whole nation.
Thus, when you or anyone says a nation will be saved from hasatan, that is what it is, in ENGLISH,
even
if in Hebrew (which is better ) it doesn't mean the same thing.
Just like holy spirit in Hebrew does not mean what it means in English.

English is pretty sorry language I think, though I use it every day!

Context determines what's being talked about, "nation" can refer to a political entity as in a nation-state like you use it here, but when it is qualified with "gentile" or similar Biblical basis it is refering to ethnicities rather than political entities. Perhaps if you took the time to understand how it is being used, instead of rushing to try to argue, you might gain some understanding.

 

[Aaron112]

Context determines what's being talked about, "nation" can refer to a political entity as in a nation-state like you use it here, but when it is qualified with "gentile" or similar Biblical basis it is refering to ethnicities rather than political entities. Perhaps if you took the time to understand how it is being used, instead of rushing to try to argue, you might gain some understanding.

Thank you. Your opposition to truth is noted.

 

[Mr. M]

While at work today I kept thinking about Romans 9:14-16, and thinking about what the underlying message of "I will have mercy on who I will have mercy" truly is, since it seems to me there are two options. Either a)it's a statement concerned primarily with God excluding some from His mercy and remaining just or b)it's a statement about God including more than He has stipulated in His mercy and remaining just. The context of the discussion seems like it could go either direction, since it may be talking about some Jews being excluded despite being born Jews, or it could be about the promises given to Israel no longer being the exclusive inheritance of the Jews. What makes the difference, it seems to me, is the question that we think Romans as a whole is answering. To my mind, there are two possibilities that seem to dominate discussions on Romans. The first being that Romans is largely about answering the question "How does a man find salvation?" While the second possibility is that Romans is answering the question "How can God remain just while justifying sinners?" with a special emphasis on God justifying the gentile nations rather than avenging Israel.

What would you say the overarching question of Romans is? Or at least the portion of Romans mentioned, that is to say Romans 8-9?

The overarching question of Romans is the righteousness of God.
Paul uses righteousness 36X, beginning with:
1:17 For therein is the righteousness G1343 of God
revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Concluding with one of my favorites, as one who has been given to appetite:
14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink;
but righteousness, G1343 and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

G1343 - dikaiosynē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1343 - δικαιοσύνη dikaiosýnē, dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay; from ; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:—righteousness.

www.blueletterbible.org

His argument established in the first half of the letter seems to culminate with:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In which he uses a similar word, dikaioma [G1345]

G1345 - dikaiōma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1345 - δικαίωμα dikaíōma, dik-ah'-yo-mah; from ; an equitable deed; by implication, a statute or decision:—judgment, justification, ordinance, righteousness.

www.blueletterbible.org

which comes from dikaioo [G1344] translated justify, and used 15X

G1344 - dikaioō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G1344 - δικαιόω dikaióō, dik-ah-yo'-o; from ; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:—free, justify(-ier), be righteous.

www.blueletterbible.org