What is High Church, and Low Church?

[gtsecc]

But the two aren't mutually exclusive

I agree, but you are the one who implied that they were :
Quote:

Originally Posted by: Dogsbody

An alternative view:

High Church = dwindling congregations
Low Church = bursting at the seams

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Just my observation of a very small database - one Ecusa parish/diocese and several CofE parish/dioceses.

 

[gtsecc]

Eastern Orthodox = Same Theology
Roman Catholic = Same Magisterium
Anglican = Same Words

Now, the Eastern Orthodox can make a good arguent that they are part of the Church Christ founded. And, theologically they are the most unified.

The Roman Catholics can make a good argument also that they are part of the Church Christ founded, and they seem to have Peter's succesion.

Anglicans were clearly part of the Church Christ founded - our roots go back to around the first century when the land was evangelised. For us to continue to hold this claim, we need to show how we are connected to the Church in England. We can do this by showing a theological, sacramental, and liturgical connection. As the theology changes, we can only loosely claim conenction by showing that we are praying the same words. If we don't have this or even want it - then we are not part of the Church Christ established, and then the whole church established by Christ consists of the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox, plus maybe a few smaller pieces like the Coptic Church and the Old Catholics.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

No, no, no!

Who really, really cares about the wider church? Most people only care about their own church family and their own personal journey of faith (good teaching helps on that score) and their obligations to God.

 

[gtsecc]

No, no, no!

Who really, really cares about the wider church? Most people only care about their own church family and their own personal journey of faith (good teaching helps on that score) and their obligations to God.

I care about the wider Church.
Everyone in my parish cares about it - and thinks about it that way.

Jesus did not come just for my salvation, but for the salvation of the whole of creation. The Church he established is not just for my personal salvation but for the salvation of all of creation.
The Bible talks about the Body of Christ, not the parish family.
Your parish should not do things which will injure the rest of the body.
Your parish must think of itself as part of the Body of Christ and act accordingly.

 

[gtsecc]

Yeah, and you have all the answers. Righty-O. And who are you to judge?

It is not my idea.
I have most of Church history in accord with my understanding of the Church.

Look, do you say the creeds at your parish?
What do you think One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church means?
Do you think the folks that wrote the creed would agree with your understanding?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I care about the wider Church.
Everyone in my parish cares about it - and thinks about it that way.

Jesus did not come just for my salvation, but for the salvation of the whole of creation. The Church he established is not just for my personal salvation but for the salvation of all of creation.
The Bible talks about the Body of Christ, not the parish family.
Your parish should not do things which will injure the rest of the body.
Your parish must think of itself as part of the Body of Christ and act accordingly.

Oh, this is getting ridiculous.

How does my parish injure the rest of the body? We work tirelessly for the body and continually self-examine to make sure we are working for God and not for ourselves.

We are not dumbing down the message. We are enhancing it.

We are not expending energy on man-made issues (ie rubrics)

Why are you critical of a successful and committed church - just because we don't follow your little ways of dresscode, lectionary, worship style?

Like it our not, we are Anglican - have been since the start of the CofE (Congregation here since 1100s). If you have a problem with us, then it is you that is not Anglican.

We develop 7-day a week Christians which is very commendable in my book.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

It is not my idea.
I have most of Church history in accord with my understanding of the Church.

Look, do you say the creeds at your parish?
What do you think One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church means?
Do you think the folks that wrote the creed would agree with your understanding?

Yes, we say the Creed.

Holy Catholic = Universal
Apostolic = descended from the Apostles

I think we qualify on both counts somehow, unless there has been an administrative [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-up with our new bishop.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Not necessarily.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

We don't use the BCP ('cept to 20 or so dusties at 8am). Yet we are still Anglicans.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

If your parish does not use the Prayer Book, then it is indeed your parish which is not Anglican. The Prayer Book is what defines us as a people.

I can't agree with this either!

Jesus said that he would build his church on Peter, the rock. Does this mean that all churches/christians have got to be able to trace their leadership through to him? Does that mean we all have to use the Prayer Book? "The Prayer Book is what defines us as a people" My church uses it for one service (with a low attendance), but not for the main service, which I attend. This doesn't mean that I am not an Anglican! Go to the Anglican communion website to see what defines us "as a people".

BTW, I thought "Apostolic" meant "like the apostles" - and apostle means "one who is sent". Carries a mission implication, not some sort of "descended" from "we're authentic because we descended from" meaning.

 

[holyshe]

Dogsbody,

If your parish does not use the Prayer Book, then it is indeed your parish which is not Anglican. The Prayer Book is what defines us as a people.

i agree it is one of the things that unites us

 

[Timothy]

Bluntly put, what defines us as Anglicans is NOT the BCP. Otherwise we'd still be using the 1662 (which America doesn't, Canada doesn't, and the UK doesn't.) We've all revised our liturgy differently, ECUSA with the 1979 BCP, Canada with the BAS, England with first the ASB, then now CW. What binds us together as ANGLICANS is the fact that we're willing to put aside our differences--many and large though they are--and share the Sacraments together. A willingness to say that ALL baptised believers are welcome at our table. A willingness to say that ALTHOUGH we believe that you might be incorrect, we are willing to accept you as brother/sister. This, to me, is the defining characteristic of Anglicanism. A willingness to accept all.

Timothy

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Bluntly put, what defines us as Anglicans is NOT the BCP. Otherwise we'd still be using the 1662 (which America doesn't, Canada doesn't, and the UK doesn't.) We've all revised our liturgy differently, ECUSA with the 1979 BCP, Canada with the BAS, England with first the ASB, then now CW. What binds us together as ANGLICANS is the fact that we're willing to put aside our differences--many and large though they are--and share the Sacraments together. A willingness to say that ALL baptised believers are welcome at our table. A willingness to say that ALTHOUGH we believe that you might be incorrect, we are willing to accept you as brother/sister. This, to me, is the defining characteristic of Anglicanism. A willingness to accept all.

Timothy

Yes, and this is what I love about the Anglican church (low OR high, broad, wide or in-between!).

 

[gitlance]

I was simply saying that historically, as apart from all the other denominations, we were the first (and in many places are still the only) ones to be united not just by our beliefs or customs, but by our worship. And our worship was contained in the BCP. That is what united the church in the beginning and made Anglicans distinct from the rest of the Christian world. I believe that if we abandon that heritage, we will be abandoning what originally defined us as Anglicans. (For we all know that the prayer book existed before Queen Elizabeth's "Settlement" which attempted to make the church all-inclusive).

 

[Naomi4Christ]

But we are obviously not united by our worship!

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Two things we are united by (in my opinion) are:

acceptance of the creeds and
the words used in the prayers of the Eucharist

can we add any others?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Same ladies who are in charge of the kitchen?

Participatory worship style (ie spoken prayers and responses).
Lack of overt rules for daily living (the Holy Spirit will help you stay on the straight and narrow).
Duty to the wider community (outreach, support for missionary work etc.)
Hierarchical clergy structure.
Tolerance and openness.

 

[Timothy]

I was simply saying that historically, as apart from all the other denominations, we were the first (and in many places are still the only) ones to be united not just by our beliefs or customs, but by our worship. And our worship was contained in the BCP. That is what united the church in the beginning and made Anglicans distinct from the rest of the Christian world. I believe that if we abandon that heritage, we will be abandoning what originally defined us as Anglicans. (For we all know that the prayer book existed before Queen Elizabeth's "Settlement" which attempted to make the church all-inclusive).

Well, like I say, we all have different prayerbooks that we use, as it is. Have done since the seventies. CW just takes the flexibility of the ASB, and '79 BCP and takes it further... and I like it.

Timothy

 

[PaladinValer]

The Book of Common Prayer, regardless of edition, is one of the elements of unity that unites all Anglicans.