What does the baptism of infants do?

[QuiltAngel]

All of your examples have a "hey look at me and what I am doing" aspect to them. This is what is bothersome to many of us here. Taking the focus off of Christ and onto "me."

 

[TheDag]

All of your examples have a "hey look at me and what I am doing" aspect to them. This is what is bothersome to many of us here. Taking the focus off of Christ and onto "me."

and all your examples have a we can sit back and do nothing because God has saved us focus. It is an age old problem in the lutheran church that started with Martin Luther who wanted to remove the book of james from the bible even though its teaching lined up with Jesus teaching.
Now you have said when I asked that you don't believe we sit back and do nothing but rather do good works that God has prepared for us to do and we do this out of love for God. I accept that. it was as I said in a previous post not the impression I got. However I have been happy to take your word for it.



I've just looked over every post in the thread and I can't understand where you get the impression you have got here. I've even asked questions so my beliefs can be corrected if they are wrong and yet I received condemnation for that. Then I also received condemnation for not having the "correct beliefs". Seems like I am in a no win situation.

 

[LilLamb219]

and all your examples have a we can sit back and do nothing because God has saved us focus. It is an age old problem in the lutheran church that started with Martin Luther who wanted to remove the book of james from the bible even though its teaching lined up with Jesus teaching.
Now you have said when I asked that you don't believe we sit back and do nothing but rather do good works that God has prepared for us to do and we do this out of love for God. I accept that. it was as I said in a previous post not the impression I got. However I have been happy to take your word for it.



I've just looked over every post in the thread and I can't understand where you get the impression you have got here. I've even asked questions so my beliefs can be corrected if they are wrong and yet I received condemnation for that. Then I also received condemnation for not having the "correct beliefs". Seems like I am in a no win situation.

But we can sit back for salvation. That's the key. God has saved us.

Now if we want to talk about what we do after salvation, let's talk because that's different. Works we do are not contributing to our salvation...but are done because we are saved. That's what Lutherans believe and that is what a lot of us are trying to tell you.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Let's see what Jesus says about this public proclamations of what we are doing. Here are a couple of verses that talk about how we are to pray as well as how we are to do our works.

Mark 12:38-40

And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

Matthew 6: 1-8

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order sto be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. --ESV

I think part of the problem here is that we try to answer your questions and then feel like you twist our words to say what you think we said. I don't know, maybe there is a bit of a language barrier here as not all English is the same English.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Yes, we have prayers in our worship service. Needs are made known to the Pastor before the service and the whole congregation joins in on praying for that need. Anyone needing private prayer with the Pastor, or anyone else, will do that outside of the worship service when the need occurs.

Now, my son experienced a service where the altar calls happened (non Lutheran) and he said that those were inviting people up as well as those who went up feel like they were not Christians for the reason they did not go up. My son had the right attitude of believing in the salvation of his baptism which he confirmed at his confirmation and had believed his whole life. He knew that there was no need to go forward to become a believer. He was secure in his salvation. Is he perfect? No. Does he sin? Yes. He goes to the cross in prayer and confession everyday.

 

[LutheranandLonely]

and all your examples have a we can sit back and do nothing because God has saved us focus. It is an age old problem in the lutheran church that started with Martin Luther who wanted to remove the book of james from the bible even though its teaching lined up with Jesus teaching.
Now you have said when I asked that you don't believe we sit back and do nothing but rather do good works that God has prepared for us to do and we do this out of love for God. I accept that. it was as I said in a previous post not the impression I got. However I have been happy to take your word for it.



I've just looked over every post in the thread and I can't understand where you get the impression you have got here. I've even asked questions so my beliefs can be corrected if they are wrong and yet I received condemnation for that. Then I also received condemnation for not having the "correct beliefs". Seems like I am in a no win situation.

Do you have a role in your salvation? It's a simple question requiring a simple answer. We believe that Baptism is nothing other than God's word attached to the water. This makes the water efficient to baptize. Does Baptism save? We believe it is the sacrament upon which a child is initiated into the family of Christ and receives the Holy Spirit. . Coming from your background, how do you view Baptism? This will be the difference between what you believe and what we believe. An altar call is by design asking you to "make a decision" to follow Jesus and ask him into your heart.

We cannot by our reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ our Lord or come to him, but the Holy Spirit has called us by the Gospel, enlightened us with his gifts, sanctified and keeps us with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

He does this individually and with the Church at large.

 

[joyfulthanks]

and all your examples have a we can sit back and do nothing because God has saved us focus. It is an age old problem in the lutheran church that started with Martin Luther who wanted to remove the book of james from the bible even though its teaching lined up with Jesus teaching.
Now you have said when I asked that you don't believe we sit back and do nothing but rather do good works that God has prepared for us to do and we do this out of love for God. I accept that. it was as I said in a previous post not the impression I got. However I have been happy to take your word for it.

Here's a great summary of the Lutheran view of the whole faith/works issue. We sang it this morning in church:

"Faith clings to Jesus' cross alone,
And rests in Him unceasing;
And by its fruits true faith is known,
With love and hope increasing.
For faith alone can justify;
Works serve our neighbor and supply
The proof that faith is living."

I've just looked over every post in the thread and I can't understand where you get the impression you have got here. I've even asked questions so my beliefs can be corrected if they are wrong and yet I received condemnation for that. Then I also received condemnation for not having the "correct beliefs". Seems like I am in a no win situation.

There's no condemnation - you have just hit the Lutheran wall! There are certain things Lutherans simply will not budge on, and you have hit on probably the biggest. It's not that we don't like you, or that we condemn you. We are just really, really tenacious in holding fast to the truth as we understand it. I think that it this crazy "believe anything you want world", that's not such a bad thing.

Having been in your shoes a couple of years ago, however, I do very much understand how incredibly frustrating and maddening it can be to be trying with all your heart to understand and absorb something new and foreign, and to feel like you are being condemned because you don't already get it. I do believe everyone here is trying very hard to help you, and to give you understanding. I don't think anyone is purposefully trying to misunderstand or condemn you. Sometimes posts in forums can come across much differently than they are intended because you can't hear/see inflection, body language, etc. Also, sometimes in a long discussion like this it's easy to lose track of exactly who said what. Please forgive us if we have given you the impression that we condemn you. We just disagree with you on some things, which is a different thing.

 

[TheDag]

Here's a great summary of the Lutheran view of the whole faith/works issue. We sang it this morning in church:

"Faith clings to Jesus' cross alone,
And rests in Him unceasing;
And by its fruits true faith is known,
With love and hope increasing.
For faith alone can justify;
Works serve our neighbor and supply
The proof that faith is living."

and this is what I've been saying. however as I mentioned the impression I get from some people is that they disagree. Lillamb seems to have said the opposite of this and that is part of what is causing the problem. We will be known by the good fruit we bear and if we do not bear good fruit we will be cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire. If we do not bear good fruit then jesus will put us on the side of the goats and say go away I never knew you.

There's no condemnation - you have just hit the Lutheran wall! There are certain things Lutherans simply will not budge on, and you have hit on probably the biggest. It's not that we don't like you, or that we condemn you. We are just really, really tenacious in holding fast to the truth as we understand it. I think that it this crazy "believe anything you want world", that's not such a bad thing.

Ok so here is a question. What belief is it that I've hit the lutheran wall on?
let's see if we are on the same page to start with.

In any case I was not asking people to budge on their beliefs. The reason I feel condemned no matter what is people have been critical of me for not having the "right" beliefs. When I have specifically asked for scriptural backup and explained that this is so I can change my beliefs if they are wrong once I see the proof (rather than just take someones word for it) I have also been criticised. So if I don't have the truth I am in the wrong but if I try and find out the truth I am also in the wrong.

Having been in your shoes a couple of years ago, however, I do very much understand how incredibly frustrating and maddening it can be to be trying with all your heart to understand and absorb something new and foreign, and to feel like you are being condemned because you don't already get it. I do believe everyone here is trying very hard to help you, and to give you understanding. I don't think anyone is purposefully trying to misunderstand or condemn you. Sometimes posts in forums can come across much differently than they are intended because you can't hear/see inflection, body language, etc. Also, sometimes in a long discussion like this it's easy to lose track of exactly who said what. Please forgive us if we have given you the impression that we condemn you. We just disagree with you on some things, which is a different thing.

hopefully you and everyone here is still in my shoes. I think the day we stop trying to discover more about God and his truth is the day our faith starts to die. I don't believe that in this lifetime I will ever know everything about God but I see no point in stopping trying to learn.

 

[LilLamb219]

So...you're relying on your good fruit to gain access to heaven? Good luck with that.

Birds fly, fish swim, Christians bear fruit. "Lord, Lord, when did we do those things?"

I don't look to myself to see whether I'm saved. I look to Christ and the cross where my salvation was won. If I look to myself and the things I do, I will always come up short. Don't you?

My good works are because I am saved. Non-Christians do not do good works (oh, yeah, in human eyes they seem good, but without faith, they are not considered good by God).

 

[Aibrean]

TheDag - your beliefs that good works attain some merit with God is Catholic theology.

 

[TheDag]

TheDag - your beliefs that good works attain some merit with God is Catholic theology.

So...you're relying on your good fruit to gain access to heaven? Good luck with that.

Nope that you think I believe this is just...how did another poster put it? oh yeah twisting my words. I have never said you are saved by doing good works. If you would like to start checking this thread then the following post numbers are all my posts.
38 39 46 48 50 53 55 62
64 66 70 75 81 87 88 91
94 96 100 102

You will not see once in this thread that I have said that.

Birds fly, fish swim, Christians bear fruit. "Lord, Lord, when did we do those things?"

I don't look to myself to see whether I'm saved. I look to Christ and the cross where my salvation was won. If I look to myself and the things I do, I will always come up short. Don't you?

Yes christians bear fruit so sitting back doing nothing is not bearing fruit is it? Bearing fruit involves doing something. that you want to think I am saying we earn something by doing so is your own thought not mine.

My good works are because I am saved. Non-Christians do not do good works (oh, yeah, in human eyes they seem good, but without faith, they are not considered good by God).

but if you are doing those good works then you are not sitting back doing nothing once you have been saved.

now if anyone wanted to ask where those good works come from (even though I have already mentioned that) they could have done what DaRev did and ask (that was in a different thread).

 

[LilLamb219]

Dag wrote:

We will be known by the good fruit we bear and if we do not bear good fruit we will be cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire. If we do not bear good fruit then jesus will put us on the side of the goats and say go away I never knew you.

Dag, the way you have worded this gives every indication that you're relying on your fruit.

Yes, it is true that those who do not bear good fruit are those who will not be eternally with God. Those who do not bear fruit also do not have faith and that is the key.

But it is also true that the Holy Spirit guides the Christian into doing good works. We aren't alone on that and at times we aren't even aware that we're doing it. It's not like I have to wake up and feel guilty about not doing enough...I already know I'm not. I will never ever be doing enough. That's the Law's conviction. On the Gospel side, I know that God's will be done. He will work through me even when I'm hesitant...like Jonah who did not want to go to Ninevah...God's will WILL be done.

Navel gazing does not help a person except to try to add to the guilt of the Law. This is why Lutherans are constantly pointing back to Christ and the cross...but other denominations point to the self.

 

[LilLamb219]

But we can sit back for salvation. That's the key. God has saved us.

Now if we want to talk about what we do after salvation, let's talk because that's different. Works we do are not contributing to our salvation...but are done because we are saved. That's what Lutherans believe and that is what a lot of us are trying to tell you.

Dag...did you catch my first sentence of this posting?

I said we CAN sit back FOR SALVATION.

And then I continued with...after salvation. I think you maybe read too quickly or just missed totally my point.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I am thinking that Dag needs to define good work for us. I get the idea, though maybe wrong idea, that his meaning of good work may be different than what we think of a good work.

Dag, maybe you should slow down in your reading, think and pray about what is written before replying, if you aren't already. I believe that you are the one that introduced the just sit back thought after you read something in the thread. None of us here are saying that in the way you seem to believe we are.

What we have been saying is that salvation is God's work, He does it all, we receive the gift of salvation in our baptism. We then live for God, doing everything we do for God, knowing that who we are and what we do are from God. We do these things because we serve God. Not to win points with God, but our response to the Gods blessings.

 

[LilLamb219]

Yay, Quilty! You've expressed it very well

 

[Melethiel]

But we can sit back for salvation. That's the key. God has saved us.

Now if we want to talk about what we do after salvation, let's talk because that's different. Works we do are not contributing to our salvation...but are done because we are saved. That's what Lutherans believe and that is what a lot of us are trying to tell you.

When did "justification" become synonymous with "salvation"? That's rather Catholic.

 

[QuiltAngel]

When did "justification" become synonymous with "salvation"? That's rather Catholic.

Where are you seeing that?

 

[Melethiel]

Where are you seeing that?

Now if we want to talk about what we do after salvation

Here. Sanctification is an ongoing process, and glorification is in the future; justification is the only element of salvation that can be said to be firmly in the past.

I'm in no way suggesting that our (as in, purely from us, not from Christ working through us) works contribute to our salvation, but I really think we need to be careful with our terminology.

 

[LilLamb219]

I agree that Sanctification is the process of the Holy Spirit making us holy in our day to day lives...but also I agree that works are not a part of our salvation. We are called to do good works because we are Christians and because we are saved. There needs to be that separation.

 

[Melethiel]

I think there is a danger in equating justification with salvation. Justification is only a part of the bigger picture of salvation. While we are saved (justification), we are also in the process of being saved (sanctification), and will be saved on the Last Day (glorification). We shouldn't get lazy and complacent with the mindset that it's all already done (although certainly, in a sense it is), and we can just sit back and relax.