What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

[Bible Highlighter]

You have the definition in front of you. The word 'perfect' in Matt. 5:48 literally means "complete". The new nature is perfect, it is the righteousness of God in Christ.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth and here I go again done bothering with this.

No, Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. This is more than just having a new nature alone (with one having evil fruit along with good fruit, i.e. Anti-Sinless Perfection) and or having a belief alone in Jesus for salvation. It is being perfect in conduct, and thought. This is why you had to define the term "perfect" into something more muddy or watered down. Otherwise, there would have been no need for you to define it. For you were disagreeing with me before about the verse in Leviticus. Now, you are agreeing with me?

Come on now.


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[mark kennedy]

No, Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. This is more than just having a new nature alone (with one having evil fruit along with good fruit, i.e. Anti-Sinless Perfection) and or having a belief alone in Jesus for salvation. It is being perfect in conduct, and thought. This is why you had to define the term "perfect" into something more muddy or watered down. Otherwise, there would have been no need for you to define it. For you were disagreeing with me before about the verse in Leviticus. Now, you are agreeing with me?

Come on now.


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That's the literal definition and to be perfect is for the new nature to be 'complete' and bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It's really just Christian maturity and discipleship. Teleos is the idea of the end to which things are directed, a goal, reaching the natural limit of something. Walking in the Spirit is mutually exclusive with walking after the lust of the flesh but all we are talking about here is every word, thought, deed and hidden motive being brought into submission to Christ.

This is never fully complete in this life. There is nothing muddy about this, as a matter of fact I related the Leviticus passage back to teleos. I don't know what you are arguing about but it's nothing I said, you seem oblivious to what I say no matter how many expositions you are shown.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You really don't know what a lexicon or a dictionary is do you? But you wouldn't need one because you know everything off the top of your head. What a word means is not your private interpretation and I noticed, you didn't even bother to read what exegetical scholars had to say about it.

I know English. The word "perfect" means "perfect."
Your trying to change it into something else.

Perfect (G5056 - telos τέλος) Of the 45 times it's used in the NT, 35 times it's translated 'end'. It signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect." it is used of persons, "complete," conveying the idea of goodness without necessary reference to maturity or what is expressed under (a), Mat 5:48; 19:21; Jam 1:4 (2nd part); 3:2. It is used thus of God in Mat 5:48. (Vine’s Dictionary)​

You said that perfect here is without reference to maturity. Please show me an example of the word "perfect" used in this way. For example: Bill is the perfect man; He lights his farts on fire and does backflips into pools of sharks loaded with chum. In other words, we need to see some kind of immature action done by a saint and the word "perfect" being described to them in order to make that a reality in your universe. You cannot just say.... "Hey, look, some guy wrote this down and calls himself a scholar so he knows better than the rest of us; So we should just believe him" That is just silly.

That's exactly what it means signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete, perfect.". That's exactly what it means in Matt 5:48:

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
​

Again, while one can say that they are complete in acting holy and righteous before God, it is a muddy term because the word "complete" can mean different things to different people. You really cannot do that if you use the word "perfect."

This is why I can't talk theology with you as much as I would like to. In theology semantics are vital so defining your terms is essential. Words have inherent meaning Jason, you don't get to reassign meaning to suit your own private interpretation based on a random cross reference.

James Strong and his buddies did not write inspired Scripture. They offered their advice on what those words can mean. They are not God speaking for us. Do you not realize that not all scholars agree with each other?

Being perfect in the sense Jesus is using it speaks to the 'divine nature', received by grace through faith based on the completed work of Christ.

While receiving God's grace and new nature is important foundational part of our faith, that is not context of Matthew 5:48.

Jesus says, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you. That you may be children of your Father which is in Heaven.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:43-45).

In order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph. 2:7-9)
​

Yes, it is true we are "Initally" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace without any works. If a believer sins, how do they get clean? By doing a good work? No, they repent or confess their sins to Jesus. But Paul is not talking about the Sanctification process here in Ephesians 2. Many times Paul spoke against the Law of Moses because there were those who were thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. The Pharisees made salvation all about works with no grace and no Savior. They were trying to convert new Christians by putting them back under the Law of Moses again. But the Old Law is no more, and we are under a New Covenant with New Commands and Laws.

Paul is not saying that we are saved without works of Jesus in our life (After we accept Him as our Savior). For Titus 1:16 says that a person can deny God by a lack of works. Man's works alone? No. The works of Jesus done in a believer's life.

Now here is your connection to the sacrificial lamb, that was to be without blemish or spot (Ephesians 5:27,

Yes. I quoted this verse to you before. But you do not understand it because you are misquoting it. Jesus says that He gave Himself so that He might sanctify the CHURCH so that the CHURCH might be holy, without blemish, or spot. The word "without blemish" is not used here in reference to His sacrifice but to the church. Christ did make a sacrifice. This is true. But the PURPOSE of that sacrifice was so that He could sanctify His church with the Word of God (Scripture) so that they can be holy, and without blemish. Please read Ephesians 5:25-27 again.

Philippians 2:15).

Again, you are misquoting Philippians 2:15.

It says this.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;." (Philippians 2:15).

Nothing about the Lamb here being blameless.

See the contrast in Philippians 2:15? It contrasts the nation in being perverse and crooked with believers who are to blameless who shine as lights in the world. That really does not sound like the picture you painted earlier by saying carnal Christians can be saved.

‘Without blemish’ (G299 ἄμωμος amōmos) - Without blame (blemish, fault, spot), faultless, unblamable.
​

Used of Christ (Eph 1:4), the church (Eph. 5:27),

Did you copy and paste this without really looking at what it says? Before you said Ephesians 5:27 was talking about Christ's sacrifice.

the resurrection (Col. 1:22), the purging of the conscience (Heb. 9:14), the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:19), the perserverance of the saints (Jude 1:24), and words without guile (Rev. 14:5).

That's how you do an exegetical study, based on that you can do a real exposition. Compulsive cross referencing neglects the context of the proof text, making it a pretext.

Did you read all these verses for yourself within the chapter before, or are you just copying and pasting them? Oh, and yes. I have done deep key word studies before.

Words have inherent meaning, 'perfect' means 'complete' in Matt. 5:27. That's not my opinion, that is what it literally means.

How so? Was Jesus talking about contructing something like buidling a car or something?
Or was Jesus talking about our conduct in how we behave?
Again, there is no need for you to change the definition.
Perfect means perfect.

First of all you haven't the patience to discuss eternal security

I have discussed Eternal Security for many years. So that is just a false accusation. I have replied to each point you had written in your super long post back to me and you just wrote me off.

and there is no such thing as Anti-Sinless Perfectionism.

Of course there is. It's what you believe. You are Anti (Against) Sinless Perfectionism.

I studied at a Nazarene Bible college,

I am really grateful to God I never went to Bible college. A lot of disinformation is fed to a student there that is contrary to what God's Word says.

the only denomination that actually embraces the Wesleyan, 'entire sanctification' doctrine. It was the basis for the Holiness Movement and the spin off Pentecostal churches. After Justification by faith and reliability of Scripture it was one of the most important doctrines I started studying decades ago.

Sometimes you just have to unlearn what other people are teaching and just get in the Word of God alone with God alone. People can just come away with a distorted view of what the Bible is really saying on a true teaching in God's Word.

I'll tell you what Jason, you want to talk about these things then at least learn what it is your are pontificating about. Is your view Arminian or Calvinist because I know your not Catholic?

The thread is talking about the Bible's teaching on Sinless Perfection.

Last chance, you want to talk theology then define your terms.

I did define Sinless Perfection briefly in my OP (original post).

Grace and peace,
Mark

May the Lord's love and peace be upon you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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[mark kennedy]

I know English. The word "perfect" means "perfect."
Your trying to change it into something else.

No, the Greek word is teleos...thanks for the exchange but as I suspected early, this is pointless. Let me know if you ever want to do a real study. Oh and by the way, if you want to debate something formally make a proposal in the formal debate invitation forum and drop me a PM. I would be delighted but I'm not chasing this in circles.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's the literal definition

So if I wrote something back in James Strong's Lexicon back in the day, you would have to just blindly accept it? Are you saying James Strong and his buddies are all inflallible?

and to be perfect is for the new nature to be 'complete' and bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It's really just Christian maturity and discipleship.

Which are muddy terms. Maturity and complete can be defined in different ways by people.
The Bible says "perfect." There is no need for you to say... "Well, see the Bible is really saying this instead."

Teleos is the idea of the end to which things are directed, a goal, reaching the natural limit of something. Walking in the Spirit is mutually exclusive with walking after the lust of the flesh but all we are talking about here is every word, thought, deed and hidden motive being brought into submission to Christ.

What the... huh?
Walking after the Spirit and walking after the flesh are mutually exclusive?
They are not like a coin toss where both of them are bound to happen.
That is what is deceptive of your using the word "complete" here.
Yes, Sinless Perfection is the goal of the believer, but it is here in this life and not in the next one.

This is never fully complete in this life. There is nothing muddy about this, as a matter of fact I related the Leviticus passage back to teleos. I don't know what you are arguing about but it's nothing I said, you seem oblivious to what I say no matter how many expositions you are shown.

Of course you do not believe Sinless Perfection is never completed in this life.

But Scripture defeats you here.

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
(1 Peter 4:1-2).


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[ToBeLoved]

The issue is that some do not realize that each moment we make a decision to either walk in the flesh (carnal) or walk in the spirit (spiritually).

They see either being spiritual or carnal as lifetime things (or done once), which is not the way the Bible speaks of them, so I see the mistake from the way people use the word/wording.

I find it is much better to use the words of the Bible in the same context as it is used there, when we speak to other Christians is best.

 

[mark kennedy]

So if I wrote something back in James Strong's Lexicon back in the day, you would have to just blindly accept it? Are you saying James Strong and his buddies are all inflallible?

Some things just don't change much and James Strong's referencing system identifies every word translated in the KJV. It's a tool, nothing more. That's it Jason, if you want a formal debate let me know but this is chasing the wind.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, the Greek word is teleos...thanks for the exchange but as I suspected early, this is pointless. Let me know if you ever want to do a real study. Oh and by the way, if you want to debate something formally make a proposal in the formal debate invitation forum and drop me a PM. I would be delighted but I'm not chasing this in circles.

Grace and peace,
Mark

And you did not grow up with Paul and others amongst the culture of Biblical Greek people, my friend. You have to take it by faith on what other men say certain words mean within a book. We are not talking about some English Dictionary here. Man can have funny ideas of what God's Word says. No man is perfect or infallible. I strive not to look at the original languages and scholar opinion on what certain words mean because of this reason. My Bible can be understood in my own language. I do not need a code key to decipher it. Asking God, looking at the context, keyword studies, cross references, are just some of the tools in our toolbox in understanding God's Word.

Sometimes I do read many articles by other believers on a particular subject (Especially if it is a challenging verse or passage). But this is also done with a grain of salt. I try to test what they say with God's Word.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Some things just don't change much and James Strong's referencing system identifies every word translated in the KJV. It's a tool, nothing more.

Identifying the same Hebrew and Greek words are fine; For as you know, different English words can be expressed in one Hebrew or Greek word. But I take the definitions with a grain of salt. A lot of times, they are good. But we have to be careful not to let man's thinking creep in what they think a word means. That is why I look at the English dictionary, the eytomology of a word, look at the context, compare it with a similar truth in another part of the Bible (cross reference), and I pray about it. Sometimes, when I think I know a verse, God has other plans of showing me differently in His timing later.

That's it Jason, if you want a formal debate let me know but this is chasing the wind.

Not sure why it has to be a formal debate with you. Is it because there is a time restriction? What advantage do you have in a formal debate that you cannot debate with me here? To me, truth should not be rushed. I should also not have to put on a tuxedo or tie to debate, either. Anyways, I like to take just one sentence in what you say and run with it using God's Word. In fact, responding to your long post was helpful for me because I do not just respond out of my own head alone. I look at what verses you presented and then sometimes I read the chapters, looked at the cross references and I do heavy research. Then the miracle of God begins in Him showing me His new treasures within His Word.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Before I answer all your numerous questions, maybe you could answer the ones I posted previously which you haven't responded to yet.

What about you, do you live a perfect, sinless life?

Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. God is not interested in how you once lived (if you repented of your sins towards Him); God is interested in how you can live now (See Jonah 3:6-10). Jesus takes care of our past sins if we come to Him and repent of our sins towards Him (i.e. if we admit our sinful state or we confess our sins to Him). So I have sinned in the past? Yes. But do I live in serious sin now on a daily basis? While God knows my heart better than I know myself, I believe I walk faithfullly before Him. If I do commit a serious sin on occasion, I confess it unto the Lord Jesus Christ. But do I believe I will be a slave to my sin my whole life? No. I believe Scripture. The Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Scripture teaches that beleivers can overcome sin and walk uprightly (But they still have free will so they have to still stay on their guard). Also, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

(a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

(b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also the types of sins like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), and or hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

(c) Unforgivable sins.

Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10)​

What about the apostles and believers through history? Can you give examples of any who lived a sinless life?

Answer: The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

Paul who was certainly saved wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit his struggle with the flesh and the Spirit and I think the scriptures show that it is the condition believers deal until we are home with the Lord.

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Romans 7:15-25

Well, in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting the experience of the Israelite or Jew's history with the keeping of the Law. Paul is Jewish and he was a Pharisee, so he also included an account of his own personal struggle in trying to keep the Law (while as a Pharisee before he became a Christian).

(a) Romans 7:5 deals with Paul and other ex-Law keeper’s struggle (who are now Christian) in trying to keep the Law.

(b) Romans 7:7-13 Paul speaks from the perspective of Israelite history and experience with Old Testament Law. Paul uses the word “I” in reference to the Israelite receiving of the Law of Moses. Note: This is not the first time Paul uses the word “I” in reference to somebody else’s experience (See Galatians 2:18).

(c) Romans 7:14-24 speaks of Paul and the other ex-Law-keeper’s own personal struggle (who are now Christian) with trying to obey the Law before knowing Jesus Christ.

(b) In Romans 7:25, Paul then transitions the conversation that with Jesus Christ he can then be delivered from the body of death that controlled him as a part of his old religious life as a Pharisee and a Jew (See Romans 7:24-25).

5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments], that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit [i.e. the Commands by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament], and not in the oldness of the letter [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments].
(Romans 7:5-6).

For Romans 8:2 mentions two laws.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

There is...

(a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (i.e. A New Covenant Law).
Which is walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

(b) The Law of Sin and Death (i.e. An Old Covenant Law).
This was the Old Testament Law that could condemn you by capital punishment or with physical death. Hence, why it is called the Law of Sin and Death.​

In Romans 8:4, obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus helps us to fulfill the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law, which is to love your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

Side Note:

Oh, and also Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here.

 

[Hammster]

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. - Hebrews 12:5-11

Thus endeth the debate.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

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[Shempster]

Wouldn't it be a hoot if we were not judged by what we DID, meaning actual deeds, but rather the motives behind the deeds?
How would that look?
For instance, one could break the law with the motive of helping someone and it be seen as a righteous act whereas doing a positive religious act could be seen as unrighteous if the motive was for self-distinction and gain.

Gives the word "perfection" a whole new meaning, would it not?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wouldn't it be a hoot if we were not judged by what we DID, meaning actual deeds, but rather the motives behind the deeds?
How would that look?
For instance, one could break the law with the motive of helping someone and it be seen as a righteous act whereas doing a positive religious act could be seen as unrighteous if the motive was for self-distinction and gain.

Gives the word "perfection" a whole new meaning, would it not?

Yes, motives will play a factor. If one has wrong motives and yet does good, it will not work out for them. If one does evil and has good motives, it will also not work out for them. A person's motive and actions have to align with God's will according to the Bible.

 

[Shempster]

Yes, motives will play a factor. If one has wrong motives and yet does good, it will not work out for them. If one does evil and has good motives, it will also not work out for them. A person's motive and actions have to align with God's will according to the Bible.

I guess I meant what if motive was the ONLY factor....not just "a" factor.
We all know that it is impossible to always do the correct deeds. Partially because their are dozens of theories about what acts are acceptable and which ones are detestable to God. Love, however, is said to "cover a multitude of sins" and is an attitude rather than a set of rules and regulations.
We cannot see motives, but only God can. Perhaps that is why it is suggested that we not judge, as determining motive is not always possible with the human mind and observation of the senses.

 

[dreadnought]

I am not familiar with the term "sinless perfectionism," but I do think the Lord was serious when he told us to repent of our sin. It's for our own good. When we sin, it comes back to haunt us, sometimes in extremely unpleasant ways.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I guess I meant what if motive was the ONLY factor....not just "a" factor.
We all know that it is impossible to always do the correct deeds. Partially because their are dozens of theories about what acts are acceptable and which ones are detestable to God. Love, however, is said to "cover a multitude of sins" and is an attitude rather than a set of rules and regulations.
We cannot see motives, but only God can. Perhaps that is why it is suggested that we not judge, as determining motive is not always possible with the human mind and observation of the senses.

Please re-read 2 Corinthians 7:1 and 1 Peter 4:1-2.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm aware you hold to sinless perfectionism, correct?

Sinless Perfectionism is more about putting away of minor infractions and faults of character. So it is not a salvation issue. Please see the verses in my original post along with my explanation to the following common objections. It will help to explain what I am talking about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Gratitude is something like, "Thank you Lord for forgiving my sins and imputing your own righteousness unto those of us who believe."

Pride is something like, "Thank you Lord that I am not like that person over there who I saw sinning three times this week, and for acknowledging the ways I'm making myself perfect for you."

Certain Pharisees followed a form of "Law Alone Salvationism" (Which is evident if one were to look at Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). For at the Jerusalem council they addressed the heresy of the thinking that a person had to first be saved by being circumcised and then continue to keep the Old Law or the 613 Laws of Moses (Which is a covenant contract that is no longer in effect anymore as a whole). For Acts of the Apostles 13:39 says we cannot be justified by the Law of Moses.

Anyways, the problem with the Pharisee (in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee) is that he thought salvation was in "Law Alone Salvationism" by keeping the 613 laws of Moses and salvation had very little to do with being saved by God's grace (Note: The "Church of Christ" is the one church I have ran into today who do not emphasize in folks accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and or to call upon Him for salvation or to trust in His grace for salvation; They are all about, "do, do, do" and this is to put the cart before the horse, i.e. to put Sanctification before Grace through faith in Christ, which is not possible).

So the Pharisee in the Parable of the Tax Collector did not get himself right with God by first humbling himself in being saved by God's grace. He was in a religion similar to the "Church of Christ" who did not accept God's grace as being for "Initial Salvation" (Ephesians 2:8-9), and for "Foundational Salvation" (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13, Psalms 51). But this in no way invalidates the need to "sin no more" (in regards to "grievous sin"). Jesus said to two people to "sin no more" in John 5:14, and John 8:11. So one has to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just those verses that they prefer to see. Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. If the Pharisee truly was saved by God's grace, he would have tried to help his fellow tax collector overcome sin by praying for him in the body of believers like in 1 John 5:16-17.

So while we are saved initially and ultimately by God's grace, we are also saved by cooperating with God in the Sanctification Process, as well.

For the Bible also teaches...

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).
    

 

[Hammster]

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
— Romans 7:4

Works not required for salvation to those who are in Christ.