What does "No confidence in the Flesh?" mean

[dms1972]

I'd like to understand this better in regard to my own efforts?

I don't mean to be controversial by bringing it up.

The expression was used to me and I disagreed somewhat, but wonder if I understood it

It comes from Paul in Phillipians Chapter 3.


What I am wondering about its relations to repenting, believing etc, becoming a christian.

Being from christian a background, I have tend to picked up a bit of 'knowledge' so to speak.

In some ways this can be a hindrance. A bit perhaps like picking up a book on advanced maths before having learn't the basics.

Trying to think christian before one actually is christian.

So my question is about coming or returning to God.

Im not sure I have ever taken that first basic step of trust.

I had a christian experience, or intuition in childhood. But didn't go right over in trust at the time. I felt drawn for sometime then very much felt at a point of choice or decision whether to rely completely on God.

ANother issue I am muddled about since reading some theology is the nature of this experience, intuition, revelation. Was it punctiliar (as with Bultmann explained salvation)?

What I mean is some theologians (Francis Scaheffer for instance) emphasis the historical aspect and the reliability of the Bible. Others dispute the reliability and say salvation is punctiliar (an existential experience)

So my question is also about how one can have this trust, confidence in the Bible in the first place, if one needs it to become a christian in an evangelical sense.

I suppose I am asking if one has rejected God, or not believed can one then repent and believe at ones own choosing?

 

[St_Worm2]

..... my question is also about how one can have this trust, confidence in the Bible in the first place, if one needs it to become a christian in an evangelical sense.

I suppose I am asking if one has rejected God, or not believed can one then repent and believe at ones own choosing?

Hi DMS, my trust/confidence in the Bible is first and foremost a result of my trust in its Author. I didn't become a Christian because I knew and understood the Bible from cover to cover and it made sense to me. Rather, as a result of seeing myself for what I had become, a sinful wretch w/o any hope of changing myself on my own, I chose to trust Him with my life, believing He knew what was best for me far better than I ever could. As a result of becoming a Christian, I was given the Holy Spirit (who indwells me) and the mind of Christ (so that I can finally understand the things of God as He does, which certainly includes His word). Before I became a Christian, this was not possible (see 1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

As far as believing is concerned, if it is your true desire to become a Christian, if you have come to the point where you are ready to surrender the reins of your life to Him and fully trust Him with your present and your future, then there should be nothing standing in your way of coming to Him.

I've got to go right now, but I'll come back later to discuss Philippians 3:3 with you if someone else has not already done so. And if you have any other questions (like how to become a Christian, for instance), please don't hesitate to ask us.

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ
Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 2:2-3
​

To "put no confidence in the flesh" means that we do not trust in ourselves (in our own abilities, in our nationality, in the doing of our own "good works", etc.), but in God *alone* for salvation. In verse 3, "put no confidence in the flesh" is written in contrast to what comes before it and, as a result, qualifies it for us, IOW, it is used by St. Paul to give us a more precise understanding of what he is trying to teach us.

We cannot save ourselves, there is no part of us that is good enough to accomplish that (Romans 3:10-12; Romans 3:23; Ephesians 2:1-3). Even after becoming a Christian, we can do nothing 'apart' from Him, but at that point we do cooperate with Him in our sanctification (IOW, in our "growth in Christ", something we were, in fact, created/made new/born again (John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17) in Him for .. see Ephesians 2:10 below). But there is NOTHING at all that we can "do" to be justified before Him, our confidence for that resting solely upon God's Grace and in the finished work of His Son, both His life and His death on the Cross, accomplished by Him on our behalf.

Yours and His,
David

"We are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for
good works, which God prepared beforehand
that we should walk in them"
Ephesians 2:10​

 

[dms1972]

OK.

I've a bit of distance to go still.

Regarding the Bible, my presupposition, or approach is that while I don't need to have read it "cover to cover" first I do need something from it, or to be in agreement with it.

When you were 'saved' or became a christian did it happen in connection with the Bible?

I do see the difference between reading what the Bible says about the human condition, and realising it for oneself.

I guess I just thought how can I come to a better realisation of it.

Im not sure what my desire is, whether I want a scorching vision of the Holiness of God, and my sinfulness Coram Deo yet or not?

I suppose from my theology reading I see that it knowledge of God and knowledge of oneself. So basically there needs to be a realisation one is not God.

Because I have read an listen to a lot of stuff, Eastern, New age and self-help, that sometimes (becomes muddled) - the premise almost and sometimes overtly is that one is a god, or that we are gods - which is pretty much denial of creaturehood but the kind of philosophy , pyschology or spirituality that is popular.

So that were I struggle currenty - self-concept I suppose.

Rather than a monist conception I need a Creator / creatures understanding with me knowing and accepting which side I am on.

Its kind difficult for me this issue - I've tried to acknowledge God and bow or submit - but it has to be real and sincere.

ALso I got in quite a muddle about predestination when young - and its made me rather wary of some theologies.

 

[DISRAELI]

In the context of that chapter (and much of Paul's teaching). "confidence in the flesh" means relying on "the works of the Law" for a good relationship with God. You will see that he talks about "those of the circumcision", who were trying to insist on that rite.
The opposite of "confidence in the flesh" is "confidence in God only".
It is a case of throwing yourself in trust upon God. That's the essence of Faith.

I was an atheist in my teens and came back to Christ many years ago. I don't think there is a defined formula about what the experience should feel like.
Deciding to trust on God in Christ is the important thing.

 

[ebedmelech]

dms1972,

I'm going to offer you this advice when it comes to understanding the scriptures.

1. Pray before you read and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. This is hard, because we like to trust in our own understanding. However the more you do this, the more you will understand over the years...and YES, I said years.

2. When you read ask these things:

a. Who is speaking?

b. What is the speaking about?

c. When was this spoken?

d. Where was this spoken?

e. Why was it spoken.

Keep reading and listening to the scriptures as well...because sometimes just hearing the scriptures being read will give you more insight.

The things you don't understand...or wrestle with for understanding, put it down that at this time, God doesn't want you to understand.

Those are just a few pointers my friend.

 

[dms1972]

Thanks again for the replies - since the verse is about the locus of ones confidence, or trust I wanted to ask about humility also.

I find it all to easy to be self-reliant - what others have said I agree with, but somehow I lose from time to time that sense of needing to rely on God, and my intellectual and spiritual pilgrimage has been fairly crazy at times.

Are there practical ways one can cultivate humility a sense of ones creatureliness?

 

[jsimms615]

I believe the idea of no confidence in the flesh simply means no confidence in the human nature. Paul says in another place that our flesh is hostile to God and cannot please God. It yields to the fruit of the sinful nature. In order to bear fruit for the Spirit we must be relying on the Spirit of God and not our own abilities

great question

 

[Job8]

I believe the idea of no confidence in the flesh simply means no confidence in the human nature. Paul says in another place that our flesh is hostile to God and cannot please God. It yields to the fruit of the sinful nature. In order to bear fruit for the Spirit we must be relying on the Spirit of God and not our own abilities

This is correct. No confidence in human nature, our own religiosity, our own righteousness, our own achievements to be pious, holy, ascetic, "good", etc. IOW, if we come to God expecting that we have "earned" our salvation, we will be sorely disappointed.

God will not accept anything from human nature, since it is fundamentally corrupt. Therefore we must come to God empty-handed and simply tell Him sincerely "God, be merciful to me a sinner", recognizing that Christ -- who knew no sin -- was made "Sin" for us, so that we might be made "the righteousness of God" instead. We cannot add one iota to what the Lord Jesus Christ has accomplished in His crucifixion and in His resurrection.

 

[Steve Petersen]

In the context of Paul's letters and his repeated contests with 'the circumcision' party, I suspect he is referring to placing confidence in being Jewish (circumcised, the flesh) as a guarantee of a place in The World to Come.

 

[St_Worm2]

I've a bit of distance to go still.

Regarding the Bible, my presupposition, or approach is that while I don't need to have read it "cover to cover" first I do need something from it, or to be in agreement with it.

When you were 'saved' or became a christian did it happen in connection with the Bible?

Well, yes and no (sorry, I'm not trying to be evasive). The people the Lord brought into my life to lead me to Him were Christians who knew and used the Bible extensively, so paraphrased verses/ideas from it were given to me in the form of wisdom/life lessons to help me see who I was, where I was, and where and with Whom I really needed to be. But I don't remember anyone actually popping the Bible open and teaching me out of it directly.

Im not sure what my desire is, whether I want a scorching vision of the Holiness of God, and my sinfulness Coram Deo yet or not?

That's not really how it works, at least it wasn't for me. Romans 2:4 tells us that it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance, and I can certainly tell you that was my experience 28 years ago. I truly thought that He wanted nothing more to do with me and I was surprised to find out just how wrong I was .. He took me out of the muck and mire that was my sinful life and placed me on a beautiful mountain top. I, in fact, had a much greater sense of how much He loved me than anything else. I still do ..

I suppose from my theology reading I see that it knowledge of God and knowledge of oneself. So basically there needs to be a realisation one is not God.

That is a good place to start, yes ..

Because I have read an listen to a lot of stuff, Eastern, New age and self-help, that sometimes (becomes muddled) - the premise almost and sometimes overtly is that one is a god, or that we are gods - which is pretty much denial of creaturehood but the kind of philosophy , pyschology or spirituality that is popular.

So that were I struggle currenty - self-concept I suppose.

I think I can help you with that, with the struggle you are having right now, by simply letting you know that YOU ARE NOT GOD. I know it's a lot to deal with, but there it is .. I can also promise you that you will not become God .. ever (read Isaiah 43:10). But you can be part of His family, one of His adopted children, if that is your heart's greatest desire.

ALso I got in quite a muddle about predestination when young - and its made me rather wary of some theologies.

Tell me more. What problem(s) did you have with it? Do you still feel the same way now?

Yours and His,
David

 

[bcbsr]

With regards to php 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" Paul is speaking against what may be categorized today as "Sacramental Theology" - the idea that one's salvation and sanctification is contingent upon ceremony. More generally, such as he had elaborated upon to the Galatians in the book of Galatians is that one's salvation is not contingent upon one's performance or human effort, which he refers to as "Law". "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Gal 3:3 And he goes on to say, "Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" Gal 3:5 and "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10

Don't be led astray by those who would tell that you salvation is contingent upon human effort. Such people are trying to enslave you to Law.

 

[dms1972]

With regards to php 3:3 "For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" Paul is speaking against what may be categorized today as "Sacramental Theology" - the idea that one's salvation and sanctification is contingent upon ceremony. More generally, such as he had elaborated upon to the Galatians in the book of Galatians is that one's salvation is not contingent upon one's performance or human effort, which he refers to as "Law". "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Gal 3:3 And he goes on to say, "Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" Gal 3:5 and "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10


Don't be led astray by those who would tell that you salvation is contingent upon human effort. Such people are trying to enslave you to Law.

Yes all those scriptures are true. And I totally agree making salvation follow human initiated effort is completely the reverse of faith and repentance. It also seems to me the New Testament isn't speaking against the Ten Commandments, but taking them to the level of the heart, rather than externals. Spirit-led doesn't mean being a automaton (I mean by that something resembling a robot with no will.)

Entrance into God's Kingdom isn't by works of self-justification, or being born of a particular people. It's certainly Grace and Truth plus nothing and an open heart of faith (our reception of God's Goodness and Mercy revealed in His Son Jesus).

But my view on what follows in terms of working out of my salvation is what I am asking - and that's were I think its has a lot to do with the centre one moves from, not about effort as such. To me there will be effort required in some aspects of christian life. But its knowing when. For instance prayer sometimes takes effort, and patience - that doesn't mean it earns an answer.

Also virtue is rarely properly understood, and at the time of the reformation it was even less well understood and Luther demolished both any legalistic notion of virtue, and any humanistic notion, often in a polemical fashion due to the disputes of that time. It seems to me the legalistic notion was even more opposed to Christian Faith and Love. How virtue has been understood has changed over time, in Kant's philosophy it petrified into doctrine of duties, and lost its character as something which could be living and beautiful.

The notion of virtue has some roots in greek thought but there it was tied to happiness as an end, not holiness, the happy man was the virtuous man (a long way from a modern hedonistic conception of happiness). The stoics had a pretty firm but pessimistic grasp of the human condition, as they lacked any hope of redemption. It was a matter of facing up to the human condition and making the most of it.

All notions centred in a sort of program of self-improvement that we could be proud of, the Reformers sought to demolish. They were not against virtue in terms of an inner change wrought by God's Word and Spirit. But as long as people thought of it in terms of something they could achieve whether by outward changes or inner changes by self-effort they were on the wrong basis.

But surely trusting in Jesus Christ's Righteousness, doesn't mean staying the same either (even though we may not be aware of the changes in ourselves)

Polemical works however are not a good place to learn theology or doctrine in my view.

So as I understand it the Gospel shatters first the notion of self-justification (in modern terms self-improvement) and replaces it with virtue rooted in faith in Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit. It will therefore have a deeper root than the greek conception of virtue, which was inner change but not in the Biblical and Pauline sense.

May I ask how you understand or what you mean by 'ceremony' what is it about "ceremony" that is against the life of faith?

I'd say its standing on ceremony, thats the problem, not having a ceremony. Ceremony is one of the things that distinguishes humans from animals. I beleive there can be authentic christian ceremonies provided its made clear in the theology what is and is not meant. Ceremony can turn into a dead thing as can doctrine, without the Holy Spirit. But its God's Grace and Truth revealed in Jesus Christ that saves not going through the motions of a ceremony. Ceremonies have a place but they shouldn't give the wrong impression is how I view things currently. What I mean is there are things that are kind of ceremonial such as carrying in the Bible and opening it used to draw attention to Scripture being central that would be in my view authentic, perhaps ceremony isn't the right word for that?

 

[com7fy8]

I beleive there can be authentic christian ceremonies provided its made clear in the theology what is and is not meant.

Not all people may benefit the same way from the same ceremony.

You may have something to learn or develop that someone else hasn't.

"The Lord's Supper" might be considered to be a ceremony, or an "ordinance", or a sacrament. Any of us can be mistaken about what we tell you it is supposed to mean > pre-taught people, especially, might not "get" what you can discover by reading 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, about the Lord's Supper.

One thing I get now is that the Lord's Supper is for remembering Jesus dying for us on the cross. This means two things, that I will offer, but I am sure you can get more >

We appreciate how Jesus loved us so He suffered and died like He did, on Calvary.

But . . . also . . . how He has loved us is our example which is required of us! Jesus wants us also to love any and all people (Matthew 5:46) like He has.

And God in us is able to change us to become loving like Jesus on Calvary. And we have a scripture which confirms that our Father does expect this >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, this is what God does with us . . . all of us. We all can't do this with our own effort and discipline. So, we all need to trust You, LORD our God through Jesus, to do all You mean by Your word, and how You have us obeying the example of Christ

So, trusting in Jesus, I could say now, includes trusting His example and that God alone can have us succeeding at following this example

So, then > about having "no confidence in the flesh" > this can include how we realize that nothing of ourselves and this world and education is able to change us to love like Jesus our example. God's love cures our character and this is a basic effect of God's grace >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, we rest in how God is able to succeed in us better than we could try or imagine. Rest rest rest in how He does it. "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

So, God does want to be this personal with you.

 

[Receiver]

...
So my question is about coming or returning to God.

Im not sure I have ever taken that first basic step of trust.

The flesh is the natural strength, heart, mind.
These are designed for our life with other natural things in the world but are not good enough to walk with God.
For that we need His Spirit who gives his mind, heart & strength.

The only way to truly begin to appreciate the difference is to be born again (receive the Spirit of God, evidenced by speaking in tongues, whereby he leads you in an unlearned language and ministers to you) - see John 3:3-8; Acts 2:4, 33; 1 Cor 14:2, 4, 14-18.

I had a christian experience, or intuition in childhood. But didn't go right over in trust at the time. I felt drawn for sometime then very much felt at a point of choice or decision whether to rely completely on God. ...
I suppose I am asking if one has rejected God, or not believed can one then repent and believe at ones own choosing?

Many people have rejected or just walked away from the "Jesus" they were presented with in "Church" ... but that's no surprise as such was a weak or even words-only (per-) version.

The original is what all the disciples received and ministered to others in Acts. You need that, forget all other "theology", they didn't need it, it's just "the flesh" of other people getting in youtr way!
Even in you received the original and turned away, like the prodigal son you are called back!

 

[muddleglum]

I see some excellent answers in the context of the passage.

One further thing I would think about is if I was seeking a "feeling" and waiting for the feeling to come. The word translated to "faith" would be better translated as "trust". Can we trust our feelings for much of anything?
From my experience, I would also look to the long range goals. As we grow in Christ, we learn more about Him, not scripture. As our relationship with Him develops, we find our old understanding slowly changing to a better understanding. So don't seek security in a set of axioms, either.

abide in the Blessing,

 

[dms1972]

Abide in the blessing

Sorry I am not sure what that means?

I am not seeking a feeling, I know the Presence of God in Christ is not the same as an experience. My abiding is to be in Christ according to scripture. I suppose what it means is doing everything with Christ, trusting in him, submitting to God as Sovereign and Almighty. Its not really about understanding or better understanding first and foremost - its about bearing fruit (John Chapter 15)

"Putting no confidence in the flesh" seems not to be about making an effort but about not going back to old testament ceremonies.

In any case, thanks for replies.

 

[dms1972]

So, we rest in how God is able to succeed in us better than we could try or imagine. Rest rest rest in how He does it. "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Or what Jesus says when asked what it means to do the works of God - he answers: "This is the work of God to believe in the one whom he has sent."http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm Jesus does it, I mean when a church service is taking place Jesus is supposed to be there by His Word and Holy Spirit ministering. It always seems to be thought that Jesus is only "in the heart". Should it not be that in a worship service we actually at times experience Jesus of Nazareth in our midst, not visibly but as the Unseen Real. But I think many don't quite believe this.

 

[muddleglum]

Sorry I am not sure what that means?

Sorry, I use that instead of, "God bless you." God has already given us great blessings that we access only if we abide in Christ. Abraham's blessing is discussed in Gal 3. I shouldn't use it with strangers, though. :-0 So my apologies.

I am not seeking a feeling, I know the Presence of God in Christ is not the same as an experience.

So you understand why that caution of mine is useful in case you hadn't realized that truth.

My abiding is to be in Christ according to scripture. I suppose what it means is doing everything with Christ, trusting in him, submitting to God as Sovereign and Almighty.

I usually keep it down to one word, trust (a.k.a., faith). But, then, my understanding of the meaning of the word comprehends what you said, which isn't the case with everyone.

Its not really about understanding or better understanding first and foremost - its about bearing fruit (John Chapter 15)

Fruit is the result. I've heard some people say abiding means read the scriptures every day, but I have to abide in Christ before I can overcome my laziness in the first place. Same with understanding. How can I understand without having the mind of Christ? And to have the mind of Christ, it is obvious that I must abide in Him, and He in me. So, yeah, I agree.

"Putting no confidence in the flesh" seems not to be about making an effort but about not going back to old testament ceremonies.

In the totality of Paul's teaching, it would mean that I shouldn't have any confidence in my own strength to conquer my lack of diligence, but to rely on Christ's diligence in me. Quite often I want to turn like a door on it hinges in bed, but when I remember Christ is in me, I respond in trust to that truth and get out of bed. Same with speaking to a group. Same with studying scripture to present to the group. On and on, I know that I cannot have any confidence in my flesh's desires, but only in Christ.

Ceremonies, I think, are because we are spiritual/animal hybrids. They can touch a deeper chord within us and help us realize certain truths in a deeper way. But, as you say, we should not stand on them.

Hmmm. Christ, you remember, washed the disciples feet. That was an object lesson that hit them shockingly hard. It is just the way we've been created. At least that is my opinion.

abide in Christ,

 

[bcbsr]

The reference is Php 3:;2,3 "Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—"

The Christian is to put no confidence in rituals to save, nor in one's pedigree (being raised Christian or not). Post-Biblical application would be to put no confidence in water baptism or an sacramental theology to save. To view as a condition for salvation some religious ritual is to not believe the gospel whereby salvation is by faith and apart from the works you perform with your body.