What do you think of this scenario?

[PeterJames0510]

Then my point is made and confirmed.

What's confirmed? That this is JERKISH parenting?

 

[Hammster]

What's confirmed? That this is JERKISH parenting?

You just agreed that humiliation can be a consequence.

 

[PeterJames0510]

You just agreed that humiliation can be a consequence.

Yes, of sin.

But if the child already feels guilty, the parent should not be the one initiating any cause-effect humiliation which is what you propose.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, of sin.

But if the child already feels guilty, the parent should not be the one initiating any cause-effect humiliation which is what you propose.

If they do, sure. But you can’t determine that from the illustration.

 

[coffee4u]

Well, while I agree that children need to understand that what they did was sinful the way the father went about it was poor.

First we are not told how old this child is but if they are under the age of 7-8 they have not yet reached the age of reason. At this age children take a developmental leap in cognitive, emotional, and moral thinking. Children become more capable of rational thought, gain a more developed conscience, and have better capacity to control impulses.
Children who have not yet reached this stage of development need to be dealt with far more simply and directly.

So for argument's sake will assume the child is at least 8.


The next thing to consider is the child's temperament and nature. A child who comes and confesses probably already has a soft heart, an emotional heart. A child like this can be easily crushed. The father's opening line is enough to hurt and wound a sensitive or anxious child.
‘That’s interesting---you are sorry; well, I am hungry.’
This can be heard to a sensitive child's ears as being unloving and uncaring. I could easily see the sensitive child bursting into tears and running away before the father got anywhere with this spiel especially if the child is a girl.

The curious child, the investigative child, the tougher child will have a different response. This line may instead engage their curiosity, but not so the sensitive or anxious child. These kinds of words can harm because the opening line is what will be heard and what will be taken in. You will lose them before you began. The sensitive child needs an equally sensitive opening. This child is already feeling guilt and fear. They need to know that they are loved and accepted first before anything else is said.

If this child is at least 8, not sensitive or anxious and probably not female, for that child, this approach may work fine.
For the sensitive, anxious and most girls this type of approach is all wrong and will not be taken in the way the father envisions. The point is to get across a lesson and while the goal is honourable the way of achieving this won't work.

Father's need to understand that children, especially female children or sensitive children do not think the way they think and need to be ready to change their approach. Men tend to see a problem and want to annalize and fix it. Women see a problem and want to delve into the emotions of it and share it as an emotional exchange. A female of any age, including an 8 year old, coming to you with an emotional issue does not want to hear of a fix or a solution or a cryptic message. They are coming to be heard and acknowledged. This also goes for sensitive boys too. Fixes and solutions can come later but not before being heard. If you make sure to hear your female or sensitive child first then after that they will be more open to the fixing, solutions or moral teachings.

Apart from doing early childhood education, I am myself a sensitive women, so I understand completely how that first sentence could wound certain children. Please, fathers, if you have daughters or sensitive boys; acknowledge first and teach second.

 

[PeterJames0510]

Well, while I agree that children need to understand that what they did was sinful the way the father went about it was poor.

First we are not told how old this child is but if they are under the age of 7-8 they have not yet reached the age of reason. At this age children take a developmental leap in cognitive, emotional, and moral thinking. Children become more capable of rational thought, gain a more developed conscience, and have better capacity to control impulses.
Children who have not yet reached this stage of development need to be dealt with far more simply and directly.

So for argument's sake will assume the child is at least 8.


The next thing to consider is the child's temperament and nature. A child who comes and confesses probably already has a soft heart, an emotional heart. A child like this can be easily crushed. The father's opening line is enough to hurt and wound a sensitive or anxious child.
‘That’s interesting---you are sorry; well, I am hungry.’
This can be heard to a sensitive child's ears as being unloving and uncaring. I could easily see the sensitive child bursting into tears and running away before the father got anywhere with this spiel especially if the child is a girl.

The curious child, the investigative child, the tougher child will have a different response. This line may instead engage their curiosity, but not so the sensitive or anxious child. These kinds of words can harm because the opening line is what will be heard and what will be taken in. You will lose them before you began. The sensitive child needs an equally sensitive opening. This child is already feeling guilt and fear. They need to know that they are loved and accepted first before anything else is said.

If this child is at least 8, not sensitive or anxious and probably not female, for that child, this approach may work fine.
For the sensitive, anxious and most girls this type of approach is all wrong and will not be taken in the way the father envisions. The point is to get across a lesson and while the goal is honourable the way of achieving this won't work.

Father's need to understand that children, especially female children or sensitive children do not think the way they think and need to be ready to change their approach. Men tend to see a problem and want to annalize and fix it. Women see a problem and want to delve into the emotions of it and share it as an emotional exchange. A female of any age, including an 8 year old, coming to you with an emotional issue does not want to hear of a fix or a solution or a cryptic message. They are coming to be heard and acknowledged. This also goes for sensitive boys too. Fixes and solutions can come later but not before being heard. If you make sure to hear your female or sensitive child first then after that they will be more open to the fixing, solutions or moral teachings.

Apart from doing early childhood education, I am myself a sensitive women, so I understand completely how that first sentence could wound certain children. Please, fathers, if you have daughters or sensitive boys; acknowledge first and teach second.

Thank you for this; I am amazed how I had emotionally moved on from this scenario and have since talked to the daughter of the person who originally gave this scenario.

But after reading your thoughts, I think this is exactly the *feelings* I had that could not be put into words. I didn't think it was a 'universal' fix all.

The person in question who originally said this, I was assured by his daughter, would also say there were some things he said and did while the children were growing up that he would have done differently.

 

[JAM2b]

I don't like it. Its... I don't know. Honestly he sounds like a jerk.

If children apologize, then the focus should be on reconciling. If the child might not understand why something was wrong, explaining the specifics of that in particular is needed.

But teaching about confessions and complicated details of apologies and repentance should be in a time that is not stressful or emotionally charged, and when it is age appropriate for the child's ability to understand. Derailing a child's sincere effort to be honest and apologize can be emotionally jarring, confusing, and exasperating.

The best way to teach apologies and repentance is to model it yourself, and make sure your kids witness it and explain to them your own relationship with the Lord and others in that regard. Instead of breaking down a child's apology with a lecture, questioning, drilling, and higher spiritual teachings, break down your own for them.

 

[Junia]

Did you just say it's okay to berate a child over the sins they've asked forgiveness for?

if the child has confessed the don't I God it has been forgiven though. If the child has sinned against the parents and the parents know about it the child can then say sorry to make amends to them but I don't like the tone of it either. It seems patronising to the child who must be aware the y have messed up

 

[Junia]

Yes, of sin.

But if the child already feels guilty, the parent should not be the one initiating any cause-effect humiliation which is what you propose.

I

Agree completely!!! What child now needs is to be reassured that it they have told God they are sorry then they have been forgiven. It is so important to teach children about God's mercy

 

[NerdGirl]

This is from a prominent 'reformed' Baptist minister's appreciation page. I don't agree with the sentiment, but I put it out there to see what any of you think. I also linked to the facebook page it comes from.

“I don’t understand why Christians are so fuzzy in their thinking and practice concerning what has come to be called ‘apologizing.’ A pastor of my acquaintance relates the following incident as illustrative of the point I am making. If one of his children would come to him and say, ‘Dad, I’m sorry; I did this and this,’ he would respond by saying, ‘That’s interesting---you are sorry; well, I am hungry.’ He would then proceed, patiently and biblically, to instruct the child that both of these statements concerned their present state of feeling. The child is sorry, and the dad is hungry.

“Desirous of instructing his child concerning the nature of true repentance and confession of sin, he would then proceed to interact with the child along the following lines: ‘Now tell me what you mean by telling me that you are ‘sorry.’

‘Well, I did or said something I should not have done or said.’

‘Oh, you did? I agree with you; now tell me, what does God call those things we do and say that we should not do or say?’

‘God calls those things sin.’

‘That’s right, and God expects you to call what you did exactly what he says it was---that it was a sin.’

‘Well, Dad, I sinned by doing or saying this or that particular thing. Will you forgive me?’

“At that point, the father acknowledged that he freely and fully forgave his child for the particular sin that he confessed. A spiritually wise father or mother will also seek to instruct his or her child that forgiveness must be sought from God in exactly the same way. The language of Scripture is clear: ‘If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ (I John 1:9).”

---Pastor Martin, "Encouragement for Pastors' Wives" booklet, page 27 (available from Chapel Library). A Tribute to Pastor A.N. Martin for his 85th

It's not a bad lesson to try and impart to a child, but I'd much prefer the father allowed the child to apologize without the snarky, condescending comeback, and sit down with his son or daughter to discuss it after accepting the apology. Responding to a child who's honest and brave enough to say "I'm sorry" with "OH, well, that's interesting, I'm hungry" is incredibly unfeeling and somewhat cruel. You know what the child is trying to do, don't deflect their innocent honesty with something so immature and mean. Accept the apology, tell them you forgive them, THEN sit them down, having established a safe, loving emotional space with them, and talk about the nature of apologizing, sin, etc.

 

[mama2one]

when preteen says "I'm sorry", I hug her and say "apology accepted" or "I forgive you"

believe it's important to hug especially since it's not easy to say "I'm sorry" /admit when you're wrong

 

[Junia]

It's not a bad lesson to try and impart to a child, but I'd much prefer the father allowed the child to apologize without the snarky, condescending comeback, and sit down with his son or daughter to discuss it after accepting the apology. Responding to a child who's honest and brave enough to say "I'm sorry" with "OH, well, that's interesting, I'm hungry" is incredibly unfeeling and somewhat cruel. You know what the child is trying to do, don't deflect their innocent honesty with something so immature and mean. Accept the apology, tell them you forgive them, THEN sit them down, having established a safe, loving emotional space with them, and talk about the nature of apologizing, sin, etc.

Yes. As a child the father's response would have made me never feel able to apologise again. I think some will say that is melodramatic but some of us were that sensitive as.children

 

[Junia]

I have difficulty apologising even now in my late 30s because admitting something wrong to a parent could have resulted in some pretty brutal behaviour.

I have had people question if am saved or if I have a moral compass because I rarely apologise or admit wrongdoing to anyone but
God. Because to this day apologising makes me feel so worthless, small and powerless all over again

 

[Junia]

Well, while I agree that children need to understand that what they did was sinful the way the father went about it was poor.

First we are not told how old this child is but if they are under the age of 7-8 they have not yet reached the age of reason. At this age children take a developmental leap in cognitive, emotional, and moral thinking. Children become more capable of rational thought, gain a more developed conscience, and have better capacity to control impulses.
Children who have not yet reached this stage of development need to be dealt with far more simply and directly.

So for argument's sake will assume the child is at least 8.


The next thing to consider is the child's temperament and nature. A child who comes and confesses probably already has a soft heart, an emotional heart. A child like this can be easily crushed. The father's opening line is enough to hurt and wound a sensitive or anxious child.
‘That’s interesting---you are sorry; well, I am hungry.’
This can be heard to a sensitive child's ears as being unloving and uncaring. I could easily see the sensitive child bursting into tears and running away before the father got anywhere with this spiel especially if the child is a girl.

The curious child, the investigative child, the tougher child will have a different response. This line may instead engage their curiosity, but not so the sensitive or anxious child. These kinds of words can harm because the opening line is what will be heard and what will be taken in. You will lose them before you began. The sensitive child needs an equally sensitive opening. This child is already feeling guilt and fear. They need to know that they are loved and accepted first before anything else is said.

If this child is at least 8, not sensitive or anxious and probably not female, for that child, this approach may work fine.
For the sensitive, anxious and most girls this type of approach is all wrong and will not be taken in the way the father envisions. The point is to get across a lesson and while the goal is honourable the way of achieving this won't work.

Father's need to understand that children, especially female children or sensitive children do not think the way they think and need to be ready to change their approach. Men tend to see a problem and want to annalize and fix it. Women see a problem and want to delve into the emotions of it and share it as an emotional exchange. A female of any age, including an 8 year old, coming to you with an emotional issue does not want to hear of a fix or a solution or a cryptic message. They are coming to be heard and acknowledged. This also goes for sensitive boys too. Fixes and solutions can come later but not before being heard. If you make sure to hear your female or sensitive child first then after that they will be more open to the fixing, solutions or moral teachings.

Apart from doing early childhood education, I am myself a sensitive women, so I understand completely how that first sentence could wound certain children. Please, fathers, if you have daughters or sensitive boys; acknowledge first and teach second.

Amen

 

[NerdGirl]

I have difficulty apologising even now in my late 30s because admitting something wrong to a parent could have resulted in some pretty brutal behaviour.

I have had people question if am saved or if I have a moral compass because I rarely apologise or admit wrongdoing to anyone but
God. Because to this day apologising makes me feel so worthless, small and powerless all over again

I understand this deeply. Making one's self vulnerable with a sincere apology can be incredibly difficult. It's not so hard to just push the words out: "I was wrong for __, and I'm sorry. Please forgive me." But making your heart and spirit "speak" them? Now that's hard. We've all seen the reluctant, pouty child who's willing to mumble, "Sorry" but there's nothing apologetic about their demeanor, lol.

What's helped me, Wrapped, is remembering that apologizing is all about acknowledging the truth. And I am a huge lover and cherisher of truth. So, if I'm in the wrong, I try to look at it as a truth. And then it becomes less about me, and more about respecting what's true and real and honest. Instead of, "I suck, I'm a horrible person!" I try to think, "I was wrong. I can admit that." I remind myself that being able to acknowledge a mistake or a fault is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's the only way to learn from it, to grow from it. I remind myself that everyone messes up, I'm not being singled out by God or the universe and placed in some "Sinner's Spotlight" all by myself. And whether the other person accepts my apology and forgives me or not, is completely out of my hands. My duty is to humbly and sincerely admit my wrongdoing, without demands or expectations of how they will respond. My duty is to present the truth. That's all I can do. Whether the other person forgives or not does not determine my value as a person, or my standing with God. If I've done my part, then all is well.

A lot of these internal struggles stem from abusive childhoods, like you and I experienced. Just keep working on yourself, keep moving forward. God's never done with us, not till we're dead

 

[Junia]

I understand this deeply. Making one's self vulnerable with a sincere apology can be incredibly difficult. It's not so hard to just push the words out: "I was wrong for __, and I'm sorry. Please forgive me." But making your heart and spirit "speak" them? Now that's hard. We've all seen the reluctant, pouty child who's willing to mumble, "Sorry" but there's nothing apologetic about their demeanor, lol.

What's helped me, Wrapped, is remembering that apologizing is all about acknowledging the truth. And I am a huge lover and cherisher of truth. So, if I'm in the wrong, I try to look at it as a truth. And then it becomes less about me, and more about respecting what's true and real and honest. Instead of, "I suck, I'm a horrible person!" I try to think, "I was wrong. I can admit that." I remind myself that being able to acknowledge a mistake or a fault is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's the only way to learn from it, to grow from it. I remind myself that everyone messes up, I'm not being singled out by God or the universe and placed in some "Sinner's Spotlight" all by myself. And whether the other person accepts my apology and forgives me or not, is completely out of my hands. My duty is to humbly and sincerely admit my wrongdoing, without demands or expectations of how they will respond. My duty is to present the truth. That's all I can do. Whether the other person forgives or not does not determine my value as a person, or my standing with God. If I've done my part, then all is well.

A lot of these internal struggles stem from abusive childhoods, like you and I experienced. Just keep working on yourself, keep moving forward. God's never done with us, not till we're dead

Bless you and thank you

 

[PeterJames0510]

Wow, thank you for all the perspectives.

I really thought the whole scenario was bogus when I first heard it; I've since spoken to the woman in whose family it happened and she said "You just don't understand the situation in which this happened, my father is a loving father."

I was like ... really?

 

[akmom]

What’s wrong with the original post? That the hypothetical dad is obnoxious and legalistic? Yes, I too abhor that kind of snarky personality, and the eagerness to pontificate that seems to come with it. Some people just lack the capacity to be genuine and sincere, and their attempts to teach about God come off the same way.