What are the wages of sin?

[Timothew]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

This is interesting.
That greek word is different than other places for "reward/wages" use in the NT. It appears to be akin to the rations of soldiers according to a lexicon.

Young) Romans 6:23 for the wages/oywnia <3800> of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Strong's Number G3800 matches the Greek &#8000;&#968;&#8061;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957; (ops&#333;nion), which occurs 4 times in 4 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

3800. opsonion neuter of a presumed derivative of the same as 3795; rations for a soldier, i.e. (by extension) his stipend or pay:-- wages.
3795. opsarion op-sar'-ee-on neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of 3702; a relish to other food (as if cooked sauce), i.e. (specially), fish (presumably salted and dried as a condiment):--fish.

Revelation 22:12 And behold!, I am coming swiftly and the wages/misqoV <3408> of Me with Me, to render to each as the work is of Him
[Reve 22:12]

NKJV) Revelation 22:12 " And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward/misqoV <3408> [is] with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Strong's Number G3408 matches the Greek &#956;&#953;&#963;&#952;&#8057;&#962; (misthos), which occurs 29 times in 28 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
AV — reward 24, hire 3, wages 2

 

[RETS]

Wages of sin ARE Death, yes- However... This poll does not take the whole of the Bible into consideration. Instead, it merely picks and chooses which Scriptures are literal and which are not.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Its an age old argument. The only thing I'll mention here is this: Do finite beings deserve an infinite fate?

Whether or not they are saved is beside the point, they do not deserve an infinite fate. We do not deserve eternal life but it is a gift from God. We do not deserve to be brutally tortured for the rest of ever, but...(fill in the blank, I will not defend this theology)

I think God will judge us, but torture without end is just cruel.

 

[RETS]

Do eternal beings not merit eternal punishment?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Quote from blog
(Individuals who say these things seem not to be understanding a very crucial fact: We humans are eternal, within a finite vessel)

If I'm eternal, why or how was I born? I do have a starting point so I'm clearly not eternal.

e·ter·nal/i&#712;t&#601;rnl/Adjective

1. Lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
2. (of truths, values, or questions) Valid for all time; essentially unchanging.

(i'm still reading the blog, just a thought that popped up)

 

[RETS]

If I'm eternal, why or how was I born? I do have a starting point so I'm clearly not eternal.

We are eternal beings within a physical body- We were born, yes, but we existed prior to our birth.

This is not to say that reincarnation or any other such form of hooey is true; merely that Scripture states we were known prior to conception. We were birthed into temporary physical bodies, but we are eternal beings.


I will tweak the definition of eternal only slightly- We, our spirits, have no known beginning but we will exist without end.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

To be an eternal being you have to 'be'. If we literally existed always, (and were not just known by God before we were born because He knows all), then why was I born and how am I responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve? It would imply that everyone who exists ever was around during Eden and that we weren't human then. Their sins should have remained their sins.

There is an idea out there called [FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]gilgul ha'ne'shamot. It can best be described as a candle lighting another candle. When a candle lights another, it gives it part of its flame. Though the second flame is of the same essence as the first candle's flame, its completely independent. This idea seems to make more sense. It would mean though that we are not eternal, as we do have a starting point.
[/FONT]

 

[Timothew]

Wages of sin ARE Death, yes- However... This poll does not take the whole of the Bible into consideration. Instead, it merely picks and chooses which Scriptures are literal and which are not.

I think I'm taking the whole of the bible into consideration, I don't think those who ignore Romans 6:23 are taking the whole of the bible into consideration. Everyone picks and chooses which scriptures are literal and which are not. Would you say Romans 6:23 is literal? If not, why not? Would you say Revelation 14:11 is literal? If so why? How about Revelation 14:10? Is that verse literal too? Can God's wrath be poured into a cup?

How about John 3:16? Literal or no?

 

[RETS]

I think I'm taking the whole of the bible into consideration, I don't think those who ignore Romans 6:23 are taking the whole of the bible into consideration. Everyone picks and chooses which scriptures are literal and which are not. Would you say Romans 6:23 is literal? If not, why not? Would you say Revelation 14:11 is literal? If so why? How about Revelation 14:10? Is that verse literal too? Can God's wrath be poured into a cup?

How about John 3:16? Literal or no?

How about we keep this in relation to the current topic, and particular posts, shall we?

First of all, Romans 6:23 comes at the end of a passage which speaks about our freedom from sin, so every related Scripture which composes that thought must be taken into account.

Furthermore, Paul states that the wages of sin is death. In Genesis 2:16-17, God tells Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Specifically, He states "on that day, you will surely die." Now, neither Adam nor Eve actually died the day they ate it, did they? Well, not physically- They died spiritually, and this is the death which is spoken of in Romans 6.

That death did not mean non-existence. It meant our complete and utter separation from the source of life- God Himself. Look at the before and after picture: Prior to sin, man walked with the Creator in the Garden. They talked, probably laughed, and enjoyed one another's company. Post-fall? No talking with the Lord face to face; no walking with Him, etc. His presence was still there, as is evidenced in Genesis 4, yet the relationship was not.

In short, the relationship that God had with Adam and Eve was severed. Through the death of Christ, we are brought back into relationship with Him once more. This very concept in spoken of in Romans 5. Now that we are in Christ, though, are we sinless? No! We still fall to temptation, and not one Christian on the face of this earth can claim otherwise.

How then are we not dying, as is spoken of in Genesis and Romans? Because we are free of the CURSE of sin- Which is death. Ironically, the curse of the Law? Also death, because the law kept would prevent people from sin. When the Law was broken, it meant there was sin, and thus- Death. The curse of the Law was a physical death and the curse of sin was a spiritual death.

However...

Revelation 20 and 21 both speak of the unbelievers, those who are not found in the Book of Life, are cast into the lake of fire- The same fate as Satan, as the Beast, as the False Prophet. This is termed "the second death." It is not referred to as oblivion, destruction, non-existence, etc. It means the same as it did in Romans, and the same as it did in Genesis, only this time, it's eternal.



My earlier point is that many Christians would like to take a single verse and have it stand apart, on its own, with no further input or context from the rest of Scripture. Those who call for the execution of Atheists and Homosexuals are notorious for this. This thread appears to do the same. I didn't know how to describe my meaning with a single word, thanks to a solid week of insomnia, and ended up misusing "literal." This was my mistake, and for that, I apologize.

 

[Deaver]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

In Romans 6:23, death is eternal separation from God in hell (literally a dark, obscure place), in which unbelievers suffer conscious torment forever see Luke 16:24-25, where you can see the torment.

Ever since Adam, we all will have a physical death “dust to dust”. For the unbeliever their soul will be in Hell for eternity. For believers they will be will God for eternity, in some glorified body.

 

[Soulgazer]

We are already dead, living in a world of death. We cannot enter into life if we are not willing to leave death behind.

"For people do not gather figs from thorns or from thorn trees, if they are wise, nor grapes from thistles. For, on the one hand, that which is always becoming is in that from which it is, being from what is not good, which becomes destruction for it and death. But that which comes to be in the Eternal One is in the One of the life and the immortality of the life which they resemble."

-Gnostic Peter

"Everything that came from the perishable will perish, since it came from the perishable. But whatever came from imperishableness does not perish but becomes imperishable. So, many men went astray because they had not known this difference and they died."

-Sophia of Jesus

When you turn yourselves towards death, it will make known to you election. In truth I say to you, none of those who are afraid of death will be saved. For the Kingdom of God belongs to those who have put themselves to death. Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit."

- Secret James

But what am I telling you now? Those who are living shall die. How do they live in an illusion? The rich have become poor, and the kings have been overthrown. Everything is prone to change. The world is an illusion! - lest, indeed, I rail at things to excess!

- Treatise on the Resurrection

 

[granpa]

the wages of sin is death.
so sin is work and you get paid with death.
hence you are a slave to sin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_drive

In classical Freudian psychoanalytic theory, the death drive ("Todestrieb") is the drive towards death, self-destruction and the return to the inorganic: 'the hypothesis of a death instinct, the task of which is to lead organic life back into the inanimate state'.[1] It was originally proposed by Sigmund Freud in 1920 in Beyond the Pleasure Principle, where in his first published reference to the term he wrote of the 'opposition between the ego or death instincts and the sexual or life instincts'.[2] The death drive opposes Eros, the tendency toward survival, propagation, sex, and other creative, life-producing drives. The death drive is sometimes referred to as "Thanatos" in post-Freudian thought, complementing "Eros", although this term was not used in Freud's own work, being rather introduced by one of Freud's followers

 

[Wheeler]

The wages of sin is "death." But what is defined as "death?" "Death," it seems, is not having love for your brother. It is all about having love for each other (true life) or not having love (death) for your brothers and sisters in Christ.

1 John 3:14 KJV
(14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

 

[Timothew]

The wages of sin is "death." But what is defined as "death?"

Good question, How we define death determines our theology concerning Romans 6:23.

"Death," it seems, is not having love for your brother. It is all about having love for each other (true life) or not having love (death) for your brothers and sisters in Christ.

1 John 3:14 KJV
(14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

My take on 1 John 3:14 is that John is saying that we have passed from death into life, we are no longer subject to death, we will have a resurrection to life. We know that we will have the resurrection into life because of the evidence that we have love for the brethren. Whoever does not have love for his brother remains under the penalty of death. There is no evidence (the love) that he has received eternal life from Christ.

 

[granpa]

I would say that the very definition of a 'brother' is someone that loves you and that you ought to have love for.

cain hated his brother even though his brother loved him.
indeed, he apparently hated abel precisely because abel loved him.

hating people because they love you (want what is best for you) is indeed death.

 

[Timothew]

In Romans 6:23, death is eternal separation from God in hell (literally a dark, obscure place), in which unbelievers suffer conscious torment forever see Luke 16:24-25, where you can see the torment.

Ever since Adam, we all will have a physical death “dust to dust”. For the unbeliever their soul will be in Hell for eternity. For believers they will be will God for eternity, in some glorified body.

In Romans 6:23, death is thanatos, which means "death".
Luke 16:24-25 is part of a parable, not all of the parts of a parable are meant to be taken literally.

 

[Timothew]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please vote in the poll. Are the wages of sin death or something other than death?

This is a public poll.

The poll is not getting many votes

Is the question too obvious?

I would have thought there would be a lot more "No the wages of sin is eternal torment". Not that the bible says that, but because sooo many people believe that.

 

[RETS]

The poll is not getting many votes

Is the question too obvious?

I would have thought there would be a lot more "No the wages of sin is eternal torment". Not that the bible says that, but because sooo many people believe that.

You're mistaking "wages" with "sentencing."

 

[Timothew]

You're mistaking "wages" with "sentencing."

Oh, OK.

The price I receive for my service of sin is death.

Yes, that makes a lot more sense.