WELS seems every bit as divided as LCMS after all? :/

[kdm1984]

I haven't had an account on Facebook for quite some time now, but I can still read discussions on the site. I've been reading the WELS Discussions page for a few weeks now to get a better sense of the larger community.

Have to say...it's very disappointing.

It has definitely not lived up to the unity Paul expresses Christians should have in 1 Corinthians 1:10:

WELS Discussions (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)

There is little agreement there as to how far we should go in respecting government and authorities, which has come up a lot lately, with debates even as to what WELS says on its own web site. There is also the same stuff I see elsewhere on other Christian sites: all the debates over BLM, and the question of women's ordination (which is why I've been going around to numerous Christian subreddits, forums, etc. to argue against women's ordination -- everyone's so terrified women's ordination will happen even in the most conservative denominations; I almost get the sense that I have this massive obligation to keep all us women in line and put all of us in our place, because apparently no one else is doing it).

My impression of WELS, until I got to that Facebook page, was that it was less divided than LCMS, with clear lines and expectations that people followed better. I thought its smallness would also be preferable and make it prone to more unity and less division.

Obviously I was wrong!

Perhaps there are no bodies of churches out there largely free of corruption. Was Paul too idealistic in his expectation that Christians/the Corinthians have unity, or are we only now in an age where everything is so bad that unity just isn't possibly anywhere anymore?

(I've certainly kicked around the idea that social media is horrible and has corrupted everything, and perhaps I need to focus only on the specific congregation I attend, and not consider fellowship with others online, even if they're in the same denomination of church I attend. I seem to recall I was fine at my local LCMS, until I tried to reach out in broader LCMS fellowship on places like Reddit and Discord following COVID-19...)

 

[Daniel9v9]

My impression is that both WELS and the LCMS in their official capacity, are very united (respectively) given their fidelity to our Confessions. I know there was a liberal exodus of the LCMS some decades ago, but from what I gather, doctrinally it's a lot more united as a body now.

However, when we talk about individual congregations and on a lay-level, there is bound to be an element of clashing opinions, sometimes bad practices with good intentions, and other times the occasional rejection of the official stance on certain things. Sometimes these issues can grow into more extensive controversies.

Are you feeling tension on a synodical level or more on a congregational level? Or both?

Paul's call for unity is often misunderstood and sometimes even used as a means for establishing dishonest unions (Unionism or Syncretism). Of course, we should always strive for doctrinal unity and true fellowship, while allowing for freedom in adiaphora (things neither commanded nor forbidden in Scriptures), but the unity of the Church does not hinge on our efforts, but on Christ's work - He is the one who unites us. We are regrettably schismatic given our sinful nature, yet there is unity in Christ. This has always been the case, but it's been understood differently in different traditions. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, defines unity as an external membership to their church. Lutherans, however, make a distinction between a visible and an invisible Church. In the visible Church, there is schism, sin, and nominal members, but in the invisible Church (the Holy Church proper) there is the perfect unity that Paul talks about, by virtue of Christ's work.

It can be helpful to understand the Church through the marks or characteristics that our Lord lays out for us in Matthew 13, with particular emphasis on the second point below:

1. The Church is generated by the Word of God rightly received in faith. (The Parable of the Sower)

2. The condition of the visible Church is mixed, making it an impossibility of having on earth a perfectly pure visible Church. (The Parable of the Weeds)

3. The Church is recognised by its humble beginning, steady progress, and final mighty consummation. (The Parable of the Mustard Seed)

4. The Church has a self-diffusing manner of working and all-assimilating power. (The Parable of the Leaven)

5. The Church is recognised as a precious treasure, found in the providence of God, by those who were not searching for it. (The Parable of the Hidden Treasure)

6. The Church is of incomparable glory, and found by the earnest seeker. (The Parable of the Pearl of Great Value)

7. There will be a final complete sundering of the evil from the good after the all-comprehending work of the Church. (The Parable of the Net)

So, this is all to say that, though it's very sad and frustrating to see schism and strife in the Church, and we both should and must strive to overcome it, we are also called to be longsuffering and bearing with our (collective) sin. There is no externally perfect church body on earth - and those who claim there is don't know the depth of sin - but we can take comfort in that, wherever the belief in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, our one God and one Lord Jesus Christ is held, where the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered, there we have the true Church.

 

[kdm1984]

Thanks!

The tensions seem to result mostly online. Honestly, if all I ever did was attend my local WELS (or, when I was in LCMS, the local LCMS), I'd be oblivious to these kinds of controversies.

I suppose partly it's because people don't like to discuss difficult topics face-to-face. When I attend the local church, I go to the services, and sometimes other local church-related events, such as midweek dinners when I was at LCMS. In the sermons, hymns, and even local fellowship opportunities, stuff like BLM and women's ordination just doesn't ever come up. People are polite. I honestly don't even ever get to know them very well, or vice versa. We just go to church, share pleasantries, clean some tables, and that's that.

Online, people get into all the difficult stuff. And that's when you find out how divided things are. Or at least, maybe it's that way for the people who like to participate in those kinds of online forums, blogs, subreddits, Discords, and Facebook groups. Maybe there really are people in important positions in WELS who are trying to infiltrate secular leftism and feminism and BLMism and Marxism in the denomination, and so they think there's a need to argue about such things online. But I'm not seeing that at my own local level. (Then again, I live in a very white, conservative area.)

 

[Nova2216]

Thanks!

The tensions seem to result mostly online. Honestly, if all I ever did was attend my local WELS (or, when I was in LCMS, the local LCMS), I'd be oblivious to these kinds of controversies.

I suppose partly it's because people don't like to discuss difficult topics face-to-face. When I attend the local church, I go to the services, and sometimes other local church-related events, such as midweek dinners when I was at LCMS. In the sermons, hymns, and even local fellowship opportunities, stuff like BLM and women's ordination just doesn't ever come up. People are polite. I honestly don't even ever get to know them very well, or vice versa. We just go to church, share pleasantries, clean some tables, and that's that.

Online, people get into all the difficult stuff. And that's when you find out how divided things are. Or at least, maybe it's that way for the people who like to participate in those kinds of online forums, blogs, subreddits, Discords, and Facebook groups. Maybe there really are people in important positions in WELS who are trying to infiltrate secular leftism and feminism and BLMism and Marxism in the denomination, and so they think there's a need to argue about such things online. But I'm not seeing that at my own local level. (Then again, I live in a very white, conservative area.)

So, you are looking for unity. (on the word of God)



Check this out.
Mission Printing Home Page

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thanks!

The tensions seem to result mostly online. Honestly, if all I ever did was attend my local WELS (or, when I was in LCMS, the local LCMS), I'd be oblivious to these kinds of controversies.

I suppose partly it's because people don't like to discuss difficult topics face-to-face. When I attend the local church, I go to the services, and sometimes other local church-related events, such as midweek dinners when I was at LCMS. In the sermons, hymns, and even local fellowship opportunities, stuff like BLM and women's ordination just doesn't ever come up. People are polite. I honestly don't even ever get to know them very well, or vice versa. We just go to church, share pleasantries, clean some tables, and that's that.

Online, people get into all the difficult stuff. And that's when you find out how divided things are. Or at least, maybe it's that way for the people who like to participate in those kinds of online forums, blogs, subreddits, Discords, and Facebook groups. Maybe there really are people in important positions in WELS who are trying to infiltrate secular leftism and feminism and BLMism and Marxism in the denomination, and so they think there's a need to argue about such things online. But I'm not seeing that at my own local level. (Then again, I live in a very white, conservative area.)

Thanks for sharing - that's all very interesting and I can relate on a few points.

Although sermons are not to be polemical, I think there is a persistent softness or unhelpful niceness to many sermons in our day. This is not only found in Lutheran circles but is quite universal to Christendom of this age, and it's perhaps most clearly seen in contemporary churches (which draws heavily on secular ideas, which in turn have very distinct philosophical problems - and all of this have a tendency to bleed into conservative churches under the banner of outreach). This is could be worthy of a whole discussion on its own, but to keep things brief-ish*:

Pastors are called to preach the Word in its fullness, and that does extend to difficult issues. If issues such as BLM, women's ordination, and secularism etc. never make a feature in Church, perhaps it could be a good idea to gently ask the pastor to address these things either briefly and concretely in a sermon, or perhaps preferably, a bit more extensively, in some sessions after the service or on a weekday. Or even online. I'm convinced, personally, that these things could be very appropriately and efficiently taught as part of a catechesis or dogmatics series. This could be as short or as long as people see fit.

My suspicion is that if things are not clearly and explicitly taught, many ideas will go unchallenged, and ultimately people will simply echo whatever the world is saying about these things. And the world, at least the vocal minority of elites online, have a remarkable reach and influence. It's the job of the pastor to face these things head-on, and equip the congregation with the right Biblical response, with a firm conviction and gentleness. And it's the duty of the congregants to studiously receive the Scriptural position to heart and, to the best of our abilities, be educated to make clear distinctions between what is good and what has the appearance of being good.

I'd be surprised if WELS were infiltrated by many liberal scholars and pastors, given their required unconditional subscription to the Book of Concord, and going by their orthodox doctrinal standard as found in their Evangelical Lutheran Dogmatics. So I wouldn't worry too much. But on a practical, congregational level, perhaps try and stir up more catechesis or Bible studies, and I think this would eventually change people's attitudes online. It's certainly possible to do these things online as well, but many don't have the patience.

So it's all a shared burden between the actions of WELS as a body (which I think is good), and individual pastors and congregants (which often is a bit of a mixed bag, which is only natural). Maybe the best, most accessible, and most obvious thing is to pray! Pray for the pastor and for your brothers and sisters, for true fellowship and unity.

*I always aim to be brief, but this wasn't brief at all, sorry!

 

[kdm1984]

I'm ok with longer posts. I actually like having to carefully sift through what someone says.

I've been at other churches, including the non-denominational Calvary Chapel, CC (2013-2017), and an independent fundamental Baptist church, IFB (2017-2018), and I agree about the propensity for niceness/softness in the sermons.

I will say that, at CC and the IFB, I don't recall there being the same fear of women's ordination, specifically, that I've seen a lot in online LCMS and WELS online social circles. (Of course, IFB is so infamously strict on gender roles that I doubt they'd worry about feminists attending their church, LOL!) I also attended these places when BLM didn't have the secular reach they do now, so there's that.

Occasionally at the LCMS (2018-2020), I'd hear things against abortion, or a pastor may remind the congregation that Christians aren't immune from the sins of pornography or gossip, etc. Or I may hear the reminder that all nations, races, and peoples are created by God, with an additional reminder that we shouldn't protest things by rioting, because that's breaking the law, and Christians shouldn't break laws (this may be a "nice" and indirect way of saying they're against BLM, lol). Or I may hear that we should obey the governing authorities so long as they don't infringe upon our right to be Christian (conservative people tend to be anti-government, so they're fine with authorities like the police, but not, say, the mask mandate -- although Lutherans are better about this than a lot of other denominations, who are usually much more vehement against masks as though it were some kind of anti-religious law foisted upon them, which I find strange -- but that's beside the main point, so I digress).

So yes, the Lutheran congregation does the polite thing, listens, and then goes about their way. Again, it's only online where I see all the disagreement come up. Maybe there's a lot less unity even in the local congregations than I know about, but it isn't visible on Sundays or family events and other places where people put on "middle class American face-to-face social niceness." I do know there's a thing in the upper Midwest called "Minnesota nice," where people actively avoid conflict and disagreement. German American Lutherans seem to have this programmed into them, possibly, even down here in Missouri, and it only disappears in the same place where it disappears for everyone -- online. In other places I've attended or lived at, notably the South, people are much less subtle in their communication, even face-to-face.

I agree that prayer is the best way to go about things. My online discussions with LCMS members often didn't go well, and that's the large reason why I returned to WELS, the place of my infant baptism.

 

[Daniel9v9]

I'm ok with longer posts. I actually like having to carefully sift through what someone says.

I've been at other churches, including the non-denominational Calvary Chapel, CC (2013-2017), and an independent fundamental Baptist church, IFB (2017-2018), and I agree about the propensity for niceness/softness in the sermons.

I will say that, at CC and the IFB, I don't recall there being the same fear of women's ordination, specifically, that I've seen a lot in online LCMS and WELS online social circles. (Of course, IFB is so infamously strict on gender roles that I doubt they'd worry about feminists attending their church, LOL!) I also attended these places when BLM didn't have the secular reach they do now, so there's that.

Occasionally at the LCMS (2018-2020), I'd hear things against abortion, or a pastor may remind the congregation that Christians aren't immune from the sins of pornography or gossip, etc. Or I may hear the reminder that all nations, races, and peoples are created by God, with an additional reminder that we shouldn't protest things by rioting, because that's breaking the law, and Christians shouldn't break laws (this may be a "nice" and indirect way of saying they're against BLM, lol). Or I may hear that we should obey the governing authorities so long as they don't infringe upon our right to be Christian (conservative people tend to be anti-government, so they're fine with authorities like the police, but not, say, the mask mandate -- although Lutherans are better about this than a lot of other denominations, who are usually much more vehement against masks as though it were some kind of anti-religious law foisted upon them, which I find strange -- but that's beside the main point, so I digress).

So yes, the Lutheran congregation does the polite thing, listens, and then goes about their way. Again, it's only online where I see all the disagreement come up. Maybe there's a lot less unity even in the local congregations than I know about, but it isn't visible on Sundays or family events and other places where people put on "middle class American face-to-face social niceness." I do know there's a thing in the upper Midwest called "Minnesota nice," where people actively avoid conflict and disagreement. German American Lutherans seem to have this programmed into them, possibly, even down here in Missouri, and it only disappears in the same place where it disappears for everyone -- online. In other places I've attended or lived at, notably the South, people are much less subtle in their communication, even face-to-face.

I agree that prayer is the best way to go about things. My online discussions with LCMS members often didn't go well, and that's the large reason why I returned to WELS, the place of my infant baptism.

That's quite an ecumenical journey you've been on. I come from a Pentecostal house and migrated around in charismatic, evangelical and non-denominational circles, until I found a home in orthodox Lutheranism, so I can appreciate the journey.

There are many interesting things here, and I think, in some ways, these are quite typical issues to the US. Particularly regarding BLM, and controversy and perhaps even conspiracy theories regarding Covid and masks. Here in Japan, we don't really wrestle with the same issues, at least not to the same extent, but I'm very aware of what's going on in the west. I'm originally from Norway and I lived a decade in the UK. And the Synod I belong to is based in Oregon, so most of my theological studies are American, which has included US Church history.

Everything you say sounds about right to me - particularly with regards to fundamental Baptist views on family and gender, and LCMS' stance on abortion, which, at least on an official level, is very firm, as it should be. I'm still surprised to hear about conflict over women's ordination, though. That's not something I've been exposed to much in my confessional Lutheran circles. Again, I think it's unlikely for any confessional Lutheran body to embrace women's ordination. If they did, that would, in my mind, result in a formal schism. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's on the cards for either WELS or LCMS anytime soon.

I listen to Issues Etc (LCMS affiliated podcast) which I find very good and agreeable, but something I've noticed is that they seem to tread very carefully on subjects surrounding Covid and masks, which does reflect what you're saying about people's attitudes towards it. Wearing masks is very common here in Asia, and it has been for many years before the outbreak. It's not a joy to wear, but there's just no controversy about it. It's just understood to be a responsible thing to do in order to contain oneself, not primarily to protect oneself. I think this is a perfectly sound and Biblical attitude.

My impression is that on the issue of BLM, confessional Lutherans are a bit more firm, primarily because of BLM (as an organisation) beliefs with respect to family and gender, which is thoroughly anti-Scriptural. Sadly this can result in individual congregations distancing themselves from the debate of racism entirely. It kind of goes both ways - it is possible to talk about and condemn racism without being a "liberal" BLM supporter, and it is possible to be white and not racist without supporting BLM.

I think it's easier to change cultures on a local level through real fellowship and pastoral guidance, which takes time, but eventually, by God's grace, takes root and moves hearts. It can be challenging to do the same exclusively online, as people are used to shorter formats, and there are just too many competing ideas - and much of it is very shallow and subjective, so it can be difficult to know even where to start. I think we just have to be prayerful and try and focus our attention on areas where we may be able to contribute. The world has become a shouting match, but there are many people online who are genuinely looking for answers and comfort, and it's just a case of trying to engage with those in accordance with the Word of God, to the best of our ability. So, in other words, knowing that the visible Church will always be a mixed bag of believers, schismatics and nominals, we just have to be longsuffering while striving for unity and loving our neighbour where we can.

 

[LizaMarie]

I was raised and confirmed LCMS a long time ago, then was non- denominational for awhile, then came back to my Lutheran roots,but attended ELCA for a couple of years in -between-then went WELS.
I've been a member of a WELS church since '93. We've had six pastors in that time.
My experience in the WELS is that at the clergy level they are all quite conservative and solid because,
as Daniel 9V9 says, they have to be required to subscribe to the book of Concord and the Lutheran confessions. Every Pastor I have encountered in the WELS at least through our Church, other churches and the principal at our Lutheran day school (who was a Pastor) are very conservative both doctrinally and socially. My brother is LCMS and I think it is still mostly the case with them, too. I like issues.org and some of their writings. It is true that they a few decades ago moved towards being liberal but that was corrected I believe. The laity may be a different issue, though ,as there are going to be some who have grown up in the Church(cradle confessional Lutherans) who have been influenced by what is going on in the world. It is true that Confessional Lutheran pastors don't preach as much on social issues as one would like, although one of our pastors did address same-sex marriage when the issue came up for a vote in our state, (prior to the 2015 Supreme Court decision) and said we had an obligation to support Biblical marriage.
When I was a member of a non-denominational mega- church in the '80's, every one there was a sold out conservative Christian, as they were mostly new born- again Christians, but some of their children today are very much into the secular world. In those cases they usually stop attending Church once they become old enough. I have learned that what one sees online is not always representative of a Church.
When I attended the ELCA back in the late 80's early 90's the pastor there was conservative but had been once LCMS. He left that denomination because he supported women's ordination.
I doubt we will see women's ordination in the WELS or LCMS for a long time.