Watchman v. Prophet

[ByTheSpirit]

So if someone makes a statement, like the entire Body of Christ is lukewarm, not only without supporting evidence, but ignoring evidence to the contrary, should then be dismissed without evidence.

Thank you, we agree

You know the ones who persecuted the early Christians the most were the Jews who thought they were right with God and needed to defend their honor and faith and yet ironically they couldn't have been more wrong about their position... In fact Jesus even said a time would come when believers would be persecuted by those who thought they were indeed serving God. If statements made by certain individuals do not apply to you, as you seem to insist constantly, then let it go. In one ear and out the other, but by the way some insist on justifying themselves, it leaves something to wonder.

 

[FoundInGrace]

You know the ones who persecuted the early Christians the most were the Jews who thought they were right with God and needed to defend their honor and faith and yet ironically they couldn't have been more wrong about their position... In fact Jesus even said a time would come when believers would be persecuted by those who thought they were indeed serving God. If statements made by certain individuals do not apply to you, as you seem to insist constantly, then let it go. In one ear and out the other, but by the way some insist on justifying yourselves, it leaves something to wonder.

Don't you find it interesting though that instead of encouraging unity here, division amongst the saints is encouraged.
All of us have been saved by the blood of Jesus.
All of us have different personal journeys with Him.
All of us are at different places in our passion and walking with Him.
so some will be lukewarm, some will be firing hot, some will be cold.

To say all are lukewarm is an obviously incorrect and untrue statement and yet many defend this obviously untrue statement, even though for those who are weak and new amongst us telling them they are lukewarm when they are just starting out or when they are having a hard time is a heavy burden to bear that some are definitely not guilty of. but no one seems to care that telling someone who is doing the best they can for their wonderful Savior that they are lukewarm over and over again has the potential to be harmful and discouraging. you do your best for your Lord and someone keeps telling you you are lukewarm, over time that has potential to erode.

some are yes, but SOME ARE ACTUALLY NOT LUKEWARM!!! why is it such a big deal to acknowledge hey some of our mentors the fathers in the faith that we look up to, the saints out on the mission field, the older mums at the young mums groups who are helping the young mums and ministering GOd's love and truth there, that maybe just maybe they are not lukewarm. That God is working through many of His own.

When we call someone lukewarm who is not over and over and over again, it is damaging to one's faith and walk when they are not.

Some are Lukewarm, yes, but it is an untrue incorrect statement to say ALL are.

Why not simply qualify the message by saying SOME AMONGST US ARE LUKEWARM and then continue on instead of starting with a premise that ALL are?

why is it so difficult for someone to do that when it solves so many issues, especially it makes it so the message given is not a heavy burden on those who should not have a heavy burden laid on them. Some yes need a hard line approach which qualifying the message also would do, it focusses that message on those who need it.

As I have said I am not against most of the essence of the message, but its presentation currently lays a heavy burden on those not who are not worthy of it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Don't you find it interesting though that instead of encouraging unity here, division amongst the saints is encouraged.
All of us have been saved by the blood of Jesus.
All of us have different personal journeys with Him.
All of us are at different places in our passion and walking with Him.
so some will be lukewarm, some will be firing hot, some will be cold.

To say all are lukewarm is an obviously incorrect and untrue statement and yet many defend this obviously untrue statement, even though for those who are weak and new amongst us telling them they are lukewarm when they are just starting out or when they are having a hard time is a heavy burden to bear that some are definitely not guilty of. but no one seems to care that telling someone who is doing the best they can for their wonderful Savior that they are lukewarm over and over again has the potential to be harmful and discouraging. you do your best for your Lord and someone keeps telling you you are lukewarm, over time that has potential to erode.

some are yes, but SOME ARE ACTUALLY NOT LUKEWARM!!! why is it such a big deal to acknowledge hey some of our mentors the fathers in the faith that we look up to, the saints out on the mission field, the older mums at the young mums groups who are helping the young mums and ministering GOd's love and truth there, that maybe just maybe they are not lukewarm. That God is working through many of His own.

When we call someone lukewarm who is not over and over and over again, it is damaging to one's faith and walk when they are not.

Some are Lukewarm, yes, but it is an untrue incorrect statement to say ALL are.

Why not simply qualify the message by saying SOME AMONGST US ARE LUKEWARM and then continue on instead of starting with a premise that ALL are?

why is it so difficult for someone to do that when it solves so many issues, especially it makes it so the message given is not a heavy burden on those who should not have a heavy burden laid on them. Some yes need a hard line approach which qualifying the message also would do, it focusses that message on those who need it.

As I have said I am not against most of the essence of the message, but its presentation currently lays a heavy burden on those not who are not worthy of it.

I look at it like this... Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Solomon compares how we should interact together as iron being sharpened. That is a contentious process! There will be some friction, there will be some heat, but the end result is a sharper more refined blade. I have not seen where gideon has called EVERYONE as individuals lukewarm, but I have seen him refer to the church as such. Such a broad statement should not be taken personally. If for instance you attended a place of worship that was losing membership because there were divisions among the body. Worship was lacking, and the preaching was not quite there, such a statement "lukewarm" could apply to that church but certainly not to you. I have seen churches like this, so certainly it could apply to the universal church. Statistics prove how lukewarm the church is. With 1/3 of the world's population claiming Christ as Savior, there should be very little fighting and social injustice, and yet it is EVERYWHERE. We in the Church can't even get along with each other! How can a body do anything productive if it doesn't agree with itself? If the eyes say, I want to do this, but the mouth says no I'm going to do this, and still the arms declare, no it must be this way, what kind of productivity can such a state bring? None. Look at what Jesus says of the lukewarm church:

Revelation 3:14-22 ESV

14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. 15“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

The church that Jesus Himself called lukewarm considered themselves rich, prosperous, in need of nothing, and yet the Lord knew that they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. What a despicable state to be in! Having the ability to fix themselves all along and yet being blind to the fact they needed fixing. And yet unlike the other churches Jesus does not say a single individual in this church was outside of this label. He merely states that those who would conquer MUST buy for themselves garments of white and REPENT... gideon is not speaking a biblically unsound message, if anything he is merely echoing what Jesus Himself has said. There has been MUCH debate over whether or not the churches of Revelation were literal ages, or just literal churches or both, but if Jesus called even one church lukewarm there is no reason to believe He wouldn't consider the entire church as such. And it comes down to facts once again, with so many claiming Christ as Savior, there is no need for all the social injustice and fighting that happens on the planet and yet it is there.

The true Church of Christ will rise up though, and will overcome for it has been decreed that those who love the Lord will walk with Him in righteousness and holiness! He will not come for a bride that is not prepared for the wedding! He will prepare us and He will redeem us from the troubles of the world, for He is coming again! Lift your eyes towards the Heavens, for the day of redemption is drawing nigh! Hallelujah and Glory, honor and praise be to the One who loves us and has redeemed us from our sins by His very own precious blood! Jesus You alone are worthy Oh Lord! May we be found in You! May we be found in You Jesus!

 

[Always in His Presence]

You know the ones who persecuted the early Christians the most were the Jews who thought they were right with God and needed to defend their honor and faith and yet ironically they couldn't have been more wrong about their position... In fact Jesus even said a time would come when believers would be persecuted by those who thought they were indeed serving God. If statements made by certain individuals do not apply to you, as you seem to insist constantly, then let it go. In one ear and out the other, but by the way some insist on justifying themselves, it leaves something to wonder.

Are you saying I should ignore the truth?

It would be like someone observing that some in the military are deserters. You cant deny that it happens. So my friend you must be a Deserter also.

You were a soldier, why would you desert? Shame on you.

That is EXACTLY what he is doing with the Body of Christ.

And btw. Thank you for your service. I'm Navy

 

[Always in His Presence]

Don't you find it interesting though that instead of encouraging unity here, division amongst the saints is encouraged.
All of us have been saved by the blood of Jesus.
All of us have different personal journeys with Him.
All of us are at different places in our passion and walking with Him.
so some will be lukewarm, some will be firing hot, some will be cold.

To say all are lukewarm is an obviously incorrect and untrue statement and yet many defend this obviously untrue statement, even though for those who are weak and new amongst us telling them they are lukewarm when they are just starting out or when they are having a hard time is a heavy burden to bear that some are definitely not guilty of. but no one seems to care that telling someone who is doing the best they can for their wonderful Savior that they are lukewarm over and over again has the potential to be harmful and discouraging. you do your best for your Lord and someone keeps telling you you are lukewarm, over time that has potential to erode.

some are yes, but SOME ARE ACTUALLY NOT LUKEWARM!!! why is it such a big deal to acknowledge hey some of our mentors the fathers in the faith that we look up to, the saints out on the mission field, the older mums at the young mums groups who are helping the young mums and ministering GOd's love and truth there, that maybe just maybe they are not lukewarm. That God is working through many of His own.

When we call someone lukewarm who is not over and over and over again, it is damaging to one's faith and walk when they are not.

Some are Lukewarm, yes, but it is an untrue incorrect statement to say ALL are.

Why not simply qualify the message by saying SOME AMONGST US ARE LUKEWARM and then continue on instead of starting with a premise that ALL are?

why is it so difficult for someone to do that when it solves so many issues, especially it makes it so the message given is not a heavy burden on those who should not have a heavy burden laid on them. Some yes need a hard line approach which qualifying the message also would do, it focusses that message on those who need it.

As I have said I am not against most of the essence of the message, but its presentation currently lays a heavy burden on those not who are not worthy of it.

QFT

 

[FoundInGrace]

I look at it like this... Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Solomon compares how we should interact together as iron being sharpened. That is a contentious process! There will be some friction, there will be some heat, but the end result is a sharper more refined blade. I have not seen where gideon has called EVERYONE as individuals lukewarm, but I have seen him refer to the church as such. Such a broad statement should not be taken personally. If for instance you attended a place of worship that was losing membership because there were divisions among the body. Worship was lacking, and the preaching was not quite there, such a statement "lukewarm" could apply to that church but certainly not to you. I have seen churches like this, so certainly it could apply to the universal church. Statistics prove how lukewarm the church is. With 1/3 of the world's population claiming Christ as Savior, there should be very little fighting and social injustice, and yet it is EVERYWHERE. We in the Church can't even get along with each other! How can a body do anything productive if it doesn't agree with itself? If the eyes say, I want to do this, but the mouth says no I'm going to do this, and still the arms declare, no it must be this way, what kind of productivity can such a state bring? None. Look at what Jesus says of the lukewarm church:

Revelation 3:14-22 ESV

14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. 15“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

The church that Jesus Himself called lukewarm considered themselves rich, prosperous, in need of nothing, and yet the Lord knew that they were wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. What a despicable state to be in! Having the ability to fix themselves all along and yet being blind to the fact they needed fixing. And yet unlike the other churches Jesus does not say a single individual in this church was outside of this label. He merely states that those who would conquer MUST buy for themselves garments of white and REPENT... gideon is not speaking a biblically unsound message, if anything he is merely echoing what Jesus Himself has said. There has been MUCH debate over whether or not the churches of Revelation were literal ages, or just literal churches or both, but if Jesus called even one church lukewarm there is no reason to believe He wouldn't consider the entire church as such. And it comes down to facts once again, with so many claiming Christ as Savior, there is no need for all the social injustice and fighting that happens on the planet and yet it is there.

The true Church of Christ will rise up though, and will overcome for it has been decreed that those who love the Lord will walk with Him in righteousness and holiness! He will not come for a bride that is not prepared for the wedding! He will prepare us and He will redeem us from the troubles of the world, for He is coming again! Lift your eyes towards the Heavens, for the day of redemption is drawing nigh! Hallelujah and Glory, honor and praise be to the One who loves us and has redeemed us from our sins by His very own precious blood! Jesus You alone are worthy Oh Lord! May we be found in You! May we be found in You Jesus!

I do agree with what you are saying and see it similar however I also am concerned for those in the church who are babes in Christ who will not just shrug off a message telling the whole church she is lukewarm and not take it personally. You have the maturity to do that but many of the young and struggling do not and will take it as a reprimand and beating where it is not needed which can be harmful to their walk with God.

Gideon has often said the whole church is lukewarm, without exception.


Here's just a few quotes from Gideon, I can find many more if you like, he does not let anyone off, all in the body of Christ are lukewarm in his eyes if you are to believe his own words.


"Brother, the entire body of Christ has been led into teaching thatkeeps us in the flesh, mediocre."

"No wonder the church is mired in religiousity, despair and lukewarmness, for we have for far too long accepted this lie and let satan rob us of what God has given us."

"We have become a church that no longer believes that holiness and victory is even possible."

"Is this not why we as a body are weak and Laodecian-like?"

"We are satisfied with our life insurance policy, our ticket stamped for heaven and are found quite content to remain as we are."


not some, or many, but "we, the entire body of Christ" are lukewarm before God.
I hope you can see where I am coming from.

So many of these statements are simply not true of the whole church, some are lukewarm, some are burning hot, some are cold. To Gideon, he tells us we are all content in our sin.. its not true. If he said some or many or most even are content to remain in our sin, then no problem! But he does not in his posts distinguish or acknowledge that we all are in different places in our walks with the Lord. Sadly there is no acknowledgment of this, we are all treated the same - babes in Christ, those on the journey for a while, the mature in Christ, all are lukewarm and content to remain in our sin in his addresses.. which is not accurate or true.

That is why I have issues with the presentation. It causes division because of the inaccurate untrue statements.

If you have ever been in a spiritually abusive environment, even a mild one, you will understand that most of all I am concerned for those young in faith, the weak, the struggling being told over and over again they are lukewarm if that is not the case. When a heavy burden is being put on the shoulders of those that do not deserve it, then I do take issue with that.

Matthew 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!


Thank you for your response, it helped me see where you are coming from, appreciate it.