Was Satan once a good guy?

[Faith In God]

Oy.

Ok, like I said, I meant in the "apart from the Law, Sin is dead" way.

Create...wrong word.

The Law gives Sin its power.

The law gives sin its power? not really. without the law, there is no knowledge of sin. we merely see sin for what it really is with the law.

 

[JVAC]

The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing"(Lateran Council IV-1215: DS 800)

Yes, I know. It is truly the orthodox opinion on the matter.

-James

 

[TSIBHOD]

Does anyone wish to dispute that the most contextually warranted definition of "from the beginning" in John 8:44 and I John 3:8 is "from the devil's own beginning"? If so, please present your argument.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Satan was not always bad, because here is a quote in Luke, where Jesus sent his diciples out.

Luke 10

17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

In this context, Satan's "fall" is not speaking of a moral fall, but of a fall from power. The disciples say, "Hey, look, we have power over demons." Jesus says, "'I know, I saw Satan's power crumbling. He is fallen from his position of power just like lightning "falls" from the sky...." The verse provides no evidence in either direction as to whether Satan was originally good and fell from moral goodness or not.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I don't think you understood my point. Some argue that it is against God's nature to create an evil being, because apparently, they think that to create an evil being is to be an evil being. If God, however, created a being that He knew would become evil, does that not make Him evil then by those standards? It would seem that God can indeed create a being that He knows will become evil without being evil Himself. So why can He not create a being that is evil "from the beginning," and still not be evil Himself?

God wants all of His creation to choose him, using their gift of free will... An evil being would never "choose God". So why would God create it?

Does God long for love and companionship or not? Maybe He is like us,,, constantly making things harder than they really are. (creating evil beings to keep Him busy).

Does anyone wish to dispute that the most contextually warranted definition of "from the beginning" in John 8:44 and I John 3:8 is "from the devil's own beginning"? If so, please present your argument.

from the beginning could mean, from the beginning (when He created the angels) OR from the beginning (when He created man) or the beginning of principalities OR from the beginning of powers..

If God is an eternal being, there is no beginning, it's relative to what has begun...

...since our beginning, Satan has been evil.

 

[TSIBHOD]

An evil being would never "choose God". So why would God create it?

For our benefit. Consider Job. He was purified by his experience. God did not allow those calamities to happen to Job just "for fun." Satan was created as a tool for purifying the righteous. Isaiah 54:16 ESV:

Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

 

[@@Paul@@]

For our benefit. Consider Job. He was purified by his experience. God did not allow those calamities to happen to Job just "for fun." Satan was created as a tool for purifying the righteous. Isaiah 54:16 ESV:

Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

So: Adam was created to sin, so that Satan (the evil created being) would have something to do in making the sons of the first sinner, righteous, through a process of purification where we (the sinning sons of Adam) are tempted by Satan..... That makes sense.


Maybe, Adam and Satan were created GOOD, and they both chose to sin.

 

[verismo]

The law gives sin its power? not really. without the law, there is no knowledge of sin. we merely see sin for what it really is with the law.

OK, whatever: but I'd say that if something is dead without the other, I'd say it got some power from it. But that is just me.

 

[TSIBHOD]

So: Adam was created to sin, so that Satan (the evil created being) would have something to do in making the sons of the first sinner, righteous, through a process of purification where we (the sinning sons of Adam) are tempted by Satan..... That makes sense.


Maybe, Adam and Satan were created GOOD, and they both chose to sin.

The sin of man was not necessary. Job was tempted and did not sin.

God has created a "smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose." God says elsewhere in the Bible that we are purified in fire (1 Corinthians 3, for example) and that the dross is burnt away.

 

[@@Paul@@]

The sin of man was not necessary. Job was tempted and did not sin.

I don't understand what you mean... Adam did not need to fall?

Are you saying Job never ever sinned?

 

[HoT-MetaL]

TSIBHOD... your arguments are weak.

Theyre all based on assumptions.

Youre saying that God created an evil satan. Thats wrong. God is pure and holy.

God Bless, metal.

 

[TSIBHOD]

hotmetal, let me address you first. "Your arguments are weak." Okay, prove it. My arguments are not "based on assumptions." They are based on the Bible and on an interpretation of it that seems necessary to me, and that should at least seem valid to you.

@@Paul@@,
My point was that God did not create Satan because He wanted man to sin. God wanted the purification resulting from temptation. God wanted Job to be tried, but He did not want Job to sin in his trial. I am not saying that Job was sinless, but that he passed his test and that God wanted him to pass it. God also would have liked for Adam to have passed his test, but for reasons unknown to us, this was not possible. Enough about those things.

The point here is that Satan has a purpose, and that purpose is to purify us by testing us.

 

[TSIBHOD]

BTW,

If you voted (or you do vote) the second option ("He was a murderer from the beginning."), please post that you did so, if you don't mind. Since there are so few of us who hold this view, I would be interested to know who it is who holds it. If you don't want to be public about it, you can just give me a PM. I'm just curious. Thanks.

 

[magnum]

Guys,

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is your answer! Poll or no poll. The word says he was a murderer from the begining

 

[InnerPhyre]

You cannot fall from Grace if you were never in a state of Grace to begin with. Satan was a holy angel....a beautiful creation of God. Pride perverted and twisted him. He was a murderer from the beginning of the universe, but God and the angels existed long long before.

 

[Michael713]

God wants all of His creation to choose him, using their gift of free will... An evil being would never "choose God". So why would God create it?

Um, aren't we evil????

our thougts are evil......

we sin........

but we choose God.............I choose God..........

 

[Michael713]

Guys,

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is your answer! Poll or no poll. The word says he was a murderer from the begining

but, as was stated before, there are MANY beginnings..........

sin was born in Lucifer, not God......

therefore, God did not create sin, he just created Satan......AFTER Satan was created, sin was born......even if sin was born in Satan a spilt-second after God created him, God still created him perfect FIRST......

 

[verismo]

BTW,

If you voted (or you do vote) the second option ("He was a murderer from the beginning."), please post that you did so, if you don't mind. Since there are so few of us who hold this view, I would be interested to know who it is who holds it. If you don't want to be public about it, you can just give me a PM. I'm just curious. Thanks.

I voted "from the beginning" mainly because of the 1 Jn quote (the second chioce is a Scriprute quote, so you can't vote against it), but I believe that he was created a holy angel, not created evil. God doen't create evil things; but he does let them be free to choose it as the Devil did. So yes, the question is: beginning of what?

 

[TSIBHOD]

Those who think that it must be a different beginning spoken of in the Bible seem to be reasoning that God would not create something "evil." Honestly, I do not see how it follows that because God is good, He cannot create an evil being, though He can create a being that He knows will become evil. So perhaps someone who thinks this can explain?

 

[magnum]

Guys, How can ayone argue with the scripture? Read below.

Oh, I voted that he was a murderer from the beginning. After all the writer of John knew better than I.

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is your answer! Poll or no poll. The word says he was a murderer from the begining