Was Pompeii Destroyed Like Sodom?

[Zippythepinhead]

I was reading an article about ancient Pompeii and how well preserved it is. The anicient ruins, the streets, even ash over bodies cast as they were covered. Then came many of the murals. They had all kinds of sexual deviancy on them from induction ceremonies to outright orgies. So did God destroy Pompeii for the same reasons he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Over indulgence of sexual sin?

 

[theotherguy]

Given that God is always consistant in punishing sin, I'd say its got to be a real possiblity. Actually thinking about it, I wonder if that is why countries and empires fall. This question requires investigation.

 

[Dennis Moore]

You're kidding, right? A volcano destroyed Pompeii. It was a natural phenomenon that we can explain with basic geology. It wasn't some divine fiat.

Also, do you have any actual references for your claim that the murals featured "sexual deviancy?" Because I've seen plenty of images from Pompeii, and they don't support your claim.

Pompeii mural images

More Pompeii mural images

A couple more images

There is a series of erotic murals (in a brothel, acting as a sort of menu for illiterate clients and workers), but it's hardly indicative of the artistry and variety of images found in Pompeii.

Pompeii was a tragic natural disaster. If it had been another violent slaughter by the angry deity of the Old Teastament, I'm sure he would have taken credit for it. And he would have fried Las Vegas long ago, if he "consistently punished" as theotherguy claims.

 

[meebs]

I was reading an article about ancient Pompeii and how well preserved it is. The anicient ruins, the streets, even ash over bodies cast as they were covered. Then came many of the murals. They had all kinds of sexual deviancy on them from induction ceremonies to outright orgies. So did God destroy Pompeii for the same reasons he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Over indulgence of sexual sin?

last i heard it was just a volcano. There are no signs or reciepts telling us that "goddidit".

 

[Zippythepinhead]

You're kidding, right? A volcano destroyed Pompeii. It was a natural phenomenon that we can explain with basic geology. It wasn't some divine fiat.

Also, do you have any actual references for your claim that the murals featured "sexual deviancy?" Because I've seen plenty of images from Pompeii, and they don't support your claim.

Pompeii mural images

More Pompeii mural images

A couple more images

There is a series of erotic murals (in a brothel, acting as a sort of menu for illiterate clients and workers), but it's hardly indicative of the artistry and variety of images found in Pompeii.

Pompeii was a tragic natural disaster. If it had been another violent slaughter by the angry deity of the Old Teastament, I'm sure he would have taken credit for it. And he would have fried Las Vegas long ago, if he "consistently punished" as theotherguy claims.

Thanks for your response. I think though that God can use natural disasters to destroy wicked people. The timing of destruction would be up to God. Nevertheless it is an interesting discussion and thus the thread.

 

[Dennis Moore]

I think though that God can use natural disasters to destroy wicked people. The timing of destruction would be up to God.

So, how can you differentiate between a random natural disaster and a Yahweh-sent Divine Smiting? Or is it just that, when you can rationalize a "sinner" being smited, it must be Yahweh-sent, but if it's hurting good Christians, it's random nature? Is it simply, "A tsunami killed a subcontinent full of heathens? God hath SMOTE them! But a hurricane ravages a state full of good Christians? What a natural tragedy!" And why would Yahweh want to do such violence,anyway? I thought the whole point of Yeshua was that there would be no more smiting, only eternal hellfire for those who chose wrong.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

So, how can you differentiate between a random natural disaster and a Yahweh-sent Divine Smiting? Or is it just that, when you can rationalize a "sinner" being smited, it must be Yahweh-sent, but if it's hurting good Christians, it's random nature? Is it simply, "A tsunami killed a subcontinent full of heathens? God hath SMOTE them! But a hurricane ravages a state full of good Christians? What a natural tragedy!" And why would Yahweh want to do such violence,anyway? I thought the whole point of Yeshua was that there would be no more smiting, only eternal hellfire for those who chose wrong.

I have never claimed any scriptural basis for the destruction of Pompeii. Just a theoretical study. Sometimes good people suffer when the wicked do. Take when Jerusalem was captured in Daniel's time. God punished Jerusalem for her wickedness by allowing the Chaldeans to overrun it. Daniel was a good man, but ended up in Babylon as part of the forced migration of the Jews.

 

[praying]

Personally I think it is threads like this among others that make Christians appear silly. God as per the Bible was dealing directly with Sodom and Gomorrah there is no evidence of this with Pompeii. He gave us free will so we can participate in all the orgies we so desire, not so He can then say AHA look at what you are doing, let me smite you.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Personally I think it is threads like this among others that make Christians appear silly. God as per the Bible was dealing directly with Sodom and Gomorrah there is no evidence of this with Pompeii. He gave us free will so we can participate in all the orgies we so desire, not so He can then say AHA look at what you are doing, let me smite you.

How does it make people look silly? Speculation of the unknown is what this forum is 50% about.

 

[Dennis Moore]

I have never claimed any scriptural basis for the destruction of Pompeii. Just a theoretical study. Sometimes good people suffer when the wicked do. Take when Jerusalem was captured in Daniel's time. God punished Jerusalem for her wickedness by allowing the Chaldeans to overrun it. Daniel was a good man, but ended up in Babylon as part of the forced migration of the Jews.

But that doesn't answer my question. Why would Yahweh smite the wicked in the first place, if he gave us free will to do as we please, and if we're going to burn in Hell when we die regardless? And wasn't Yeshua supposed to signal an end to all the smiting? And how do you differentiate a natural disaster from a Divine Smiting?

 

[praying]

How does it make people look silly? Speculation of the unknown is what this forum is 50% about.

Well it isn't unknown what destroyed Pompeii.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

But that doesn't answer my question. Why would Yahweh smite the wicked in the first place, if he gave us free will to do as we please, and if we're going to burn in Hell when we die regardless? And wasn't Yeshua supposed to signal an end to all the smiting? And how do you differentiate a natural disaster from a Divine Smiting?

We have the free will to choose our way of life. God never freed us from consequenses from our actions. If God decides to destroy someone for sin He has the power and will to do it. Destruction is a consequense not a choice.

 

[Scally Cap]

Pompeii certainly wasn't the only Roman town with erotic murals (and sculptures, and pottery, and metalwork, and, and...). If God was seriously in the smiting business, every Roman city would have ended up covered in lava.

 

[Dennis Moore]

We have the free will to choose our way of life. God never freed us from consequenses from our actions. If God decides to destroy someone for sin He has the power and will to do it. Destruction is a consequense not a choice.

Okay, that answers one of my questions ... sort of.

So, is Yahweh still in the Divine Smiting business today? How does Divine Smiting reconcile with the whole God is Love/Jesus is Savior thing? What's the criteria for Divine Smiting vs. Natural Disaster? Enquiring minds really do want to understand ...

 

[Phylogeny]

Pompeii certainly wasn't the only Roman town with erotic murals (and sculptures, and pottery, and metalwork, and, and...). If God was seriously in the smiting business, every Roman city would have ended up covered in lava.

Thanks, I was about to say as much.

A quicky history on ancient Rome: the Romans didn't differentiate what constitutes "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality", they only cared about who was dominent partner in the relationship (i.e the penetrator and the penetratee). Roman male citizens were not allowed to be the submissive in any sex act, and laws were erected to punish that were caught being in such a state. Therefore, a good roman citizen could only perform homosexual acts with a slave, which was pretty prevelant (much more so than now)---there was no stigma with having sex with another man, only in the sexual postion the man found himself in. In fact, the Romans had no comprehension of 'homosexual' vs. 'heterosexual', a student of ancient Rome once declared most Romans were essentially bisexual.

Roman women were technically suppose to stay virtuous but during various times of the Empire, the women were pretty bad too.

Let's not start on the sexual proclivities of some of their emperors...

How's that for a debauched state?

From what I gather, the ancient Romans created plenty of homoerotic art, so I don't think Pompeii was the only ones doing it (if those murals actually do exist as the OP state).

Really, if God wanted to smite cities down for their decadence, he could have made a bigger point with Rome....or Las Vegas....or heck, the ancient Athenians. Those suckers institutionalized pederasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty)!
Warning, the above link DOES show some ancient Greek murals depicting male relationships. (Am I allowed to post that? it's not porn....but someone once got into trouble posting images of the Kuma Sutra on their school account so...)

Seems like God should have smite the ancient Athenians as well.....

Oh well, maybe he was busy with other stuff during those days.

Edit: just realized one of the pics in the link provided does provide a statue from Pompeii of two males with homoerotic overtones....

 

[jayem]

The human brain has evolved to seek patterns and explanations. So it's understandable why there's a need to find reasons for momentous events, even though that leads to illogical conclusions.

Why would God destroy the city of Lisbon with an earthquake in 1755? And on a religious holiday no less? Portugal was a country of devout believers, and most of Lisbon's 250,000 residents were in its cathedrals on Nov. 1, All Saint's Day. All of the major churches collapsed on the praying multitudes. 60,000 to 90,000 deaths in all.

Why would God devastate Galveston, Texas with a hurricane in 1900? Mostly good Protestant Christians. 6000 dead in the storm surge. Still the greatest loss of life from any natural disaster in US history. So why did Galveston deserve more severe punishment than the rest of the country?

Bad things just happen. Supernatural explanations are worthless.

 

[Matt Never Existed]

Haha, I love how people will say one thing, and turn around and say/do something that goes against what they just said.

The most recent natural disaster would be the Tsunami, right? So if God was destroying sinners and heathens, sexual deviants, etc, WHY would any christian send money to support and help them?

~.^

Also, I think its more likely that the people had a town in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Volcano goes boom, town goes boom with it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also!! It has yet to be proven to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that sodom was destroyed for 'sexual' sins.

 

[graphicsguyjon]

"So did God destroy Pompeii for the same reasons he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Over indulgence of sexual sin?"

"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." Ezekiel 16:49-50

There was more than sexual sin in God's decision to destroy Sodom.

But as we have no word from God about Pompeii, there's no way we can say why it happened, other than a natural disaster. Personally, I believe that after Jesus' death and resurrection, God is withholding judgment and forms of punishment until after we die. I have nothing concrete on which to base that, it's just my opinion. So did God destroy Pompeii for the same reasons he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Over indulgence of sexual sin?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

"So did God destroy Pompeii for the same reasons he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Over indulgence of sexual sin?"

Hi Graphicsguyjon,

For you I'm going to do what I keep telling myself I won't do which is post on threads dealing with one of two topics, homosexuality being one of them.

I have some information that I would love for you to review. I didn't compile all of this and don't want to take credit for it. Someone (may be chalice_thunder) else did and I saved it on my computer. I'm going to post it again because I think you'll learn a great deal from it if you take the time to read through all of the links.
En Joy,
~Kat
~~

Homosexuality is NOT a sin!



Hey all you homosexuals and bisexuals, listen up! Homosexuality is not a sin! If you look at the Bible in context and look at the verses in context and carefully study the verses that appear to condemn homosexuality, you will find that they do not actually condemn homosexuality but only restrict it! Here is an examples:

Genesis 19, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you read the story, it is actually talking about homosexual rape. I think we would all agree that non-consensual sex is a sin. See this link for more info.

I highly recommend that you visit these sites for more info:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

http://www.godandhomosexuality.com/

I also recommend this book: "Living in Sin? A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality" by John Shelby Spong.

Responding to Pro-Gay Theology
Joe Dallas
This article addresses pro-gay theology by dividing its tenets into three categories: social justice arguments, general religious arguments, and scriptural arguments. A brief description of these positions is provided, followed by a response/rebuttal to each.

The Bible and Homosexual Practice: An Overview of Some Issues
Dr. Robert Gagnon
Theologian Robert Gagnon, in an interview, argues that both Testaments of the Bible are replete with explicit and implicit prohitibions of same-sex intercourse. He also responds to common claims regarding homosexuality and Scripture: Levitical laws don't apply, prohibitions (e.g. regarding Sodom)only pertain to rape, that Jesus was virtually silent on the issue, implying a lack of importance, that society's acceptance should be matched by the Church and that love and tolerance would demand acceptance of same-sex unions.

The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Theology, Analogies, and Genes
Dr. Robert Gagnon
Gagnon demonstrates explicit proscriptions against homosexual practice in Scripture, denies a theology of inclusion for homosexuals for inclusions' sake, analyzes analogies for disregarding Scripture's stance on homosexuality and takes issue with the Bible's alleged ignorance of innate and immutable homosexual desires (while he maintains for individual culpability). He also briefly critiques the claims of neurological and genetic primary causes for homosexual desires.

What Does the Bible Really Say About Homosexual Issues?
Tony Marco
Marco thoroughly analyzes and contrasts biblical passages regarding homosexuality and gay theology.

Homosexual Theology
Kerby Anderson
A response to several arguments offered by pro-gay theologians: the sin of Sodom, Mosaic law, New Testament passages, and "God made me gay."



Rescuing the Gospel from Bishop Spong
http://www.probe.org/docs/spong.html

www.christiangays.com has some great resources


Even if there were proof that homosexuality is genetic, we could always argue that genetics is simply the result of a fallen world.

However, there are a great number of things that may happen to peoples' bodies which are inborn, but not genetic. Studies of identical twins turn up a broad variety of differences between identical twins, but many of these differences are unambiguously non-volitional. (See the U of M twins studies for a starting point, although there are many more; see the ISTS page.)

Strictly speaking, then, whether or not homosexuality is genetic and whether or not it's volitional are unrelated.

For a clearcut example, consider fetal alcohol syndrome. No one would dream of arguing that fetal alcohol syndrome is "a choice" for the child who has it.

Thus, whether or not homosexuality is genetic is irrelenvant to the relevant question of whether God "makes people that way". I don't know whether God "makes people with fetal alcohol syndrome", but such people exist, through no choice or act of their own. Assigning guilt to them seems entirely pointless.

And yes, I'm aware that the analogy is not precise; I'm just arguing that the entire genetics question is ultimately a red herring. A great deal of research suggests that pedophilia is an inborn trait that we cannot treat or cure; this doesn't make sex with children morally acceptable.

The fair path seems to be to drop the argument on both sides, neither arguing that homosexuality is "a choice" nor arguing that it's not, because neither side has offered completely convincing proof, and the question is secondary; we need to look at the question of homosexual behavior, and come up with a response to that.

I would trade pretty much every post this board has ever had on the genetics of homosexuality for a good discussion between Ephesians3:20 and ScottEmerson on what the Bible says about sexual activity. The result would be more edifying.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

Okay, that answers one of my questions ... sort of.

So, is Yahweh still in the Divine Smiting business today? How does Divine Smiting reconcile with the whole God is Love/Jesus is Savior thing? What's the criteria for Divine Smiting vs. Natural Disaster? Enquiring minds really do want to understand ...

I suppose if we could fully understand the mind of God that might be answered? Disaster strikes all the time. Is it an act of God. Yes. Is it because people are sinning and need to be called back to repentance. Not necessrily. But sometimes the coincidental evidence does cause one to reflect on doing better at living better.