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Was it God or Angel who gave Moses the Law?

squint

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Was it God or angels who gave Moses the Law?

2 Kings 17:13

Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.

Daniel 9:10

Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

Acts 24:14

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Has Moses or any man seen God?

Genesis 32:30

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face

Ref text would help your arguments.

Not much to argue about with plain statements.

What does the early church fathers or respected commentary say about these questions?

Why replace plain reading with someone else's filters?

s
 
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Standing Up

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Was it God or angels who gave Moses the Law?

Has Moses or any man seen God?

Ref text would help your arguments.


What does the early church fathers or respected commentary say about these questions?

Where do you get the idea it was angels who gave Moses the Law?
 
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Frogster

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Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

Hebrews 2:2
For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,

They seem involved,but not sure to what extent though.
 
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Standing Up

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Thanks Frogster--

From Vines:
an ordinance, e.g., Rom 13:2 (cp. diatasso, "to appoint, ordain"), is rendered "disposition" in Act 7:53; RV, "as it (the law) was ordained by angels" (marg., "as the ordinance of angels;" lit., "unto ordinances of angels"). Angels are mentioned in connection with the giving of the Law of Moses in Deu 33:2. In Gal 3:19; Hbr 2:2 the purpose of the reference to them is to show the superiority of the Gospel to the Law. In Act 7:53 Stephen mentions the angels to stress the majesty of the Law.


From NASB:
Deut. 33:2 He said, "The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones; At His right hand there was flashing lightning for them.

Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The angels are witnesses, not the Giver.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Heb. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast (angels as witnesses), and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb. 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation (by what witness do we know this?); which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
Heb. 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
 
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Cribstyl

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Where do you get the idea it was angels who gave Moses the Law?

It appears that prophets and apostles know their bible.....

The story of Moses begins by indentifying what Moses actually saw.

Exd 3:1-15





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Exd 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.
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Exd 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
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Exd 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.
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Exd 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground.
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Exd 3:6 Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.


That's why the New Testament declares......No man has ever seen God

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Jhn 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].


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1Jo 4:12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
 
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Standing Up

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It appears that prophets and apostles know their bible.....

The story of Moses begins by indentifying what Moses actually saw.

Exd 3:1-15





copyChkboxOff.gif
Exd 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.
copyChkboxOff.gif
Exd 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
copyChkboxOff.gif
Exd 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.
copyChkboxOff.gif
Exd 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground.
copyChkboxOff.gif
Exd 3:6 Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.


That's why the New Testament declares......No man has ever seen God

copyChkboxOff.gif
Jhn 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].


copyChkboxOff.gif
1Jo 4:12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.


Angel of the Lord is a whole different question than did angels give Moses the Law.

Anyway, it's an interesting OT study to look at the angel of the Lord references and see that God shows up. See also the angel of the Lord in the NT at the rolling back of the stone.

Maybe this is why JW see Jesus as an angel/archangel. It's wrong, but maybe that is why.
 
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Cribstyl

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Angel of the Lord is a whole different question than did angels give Moses the Law.

Anyway, it's an interesting OT study to look at the angel of the Lord references and see that God shows up. See also the angel of the Lord in the NT at the rolling back of the stone.

Maybe this is why JW see Jesus as an angel/archangel. It's wrong, but maybe that is why.

This is the prime text I had in mind when I raised my questions.



KJV - Act 7:53 -Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].


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NKJV - Act 7:53 -who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it."



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NLT - Act 7:53 -You deliberately disobeyed God's law, though you received it from the hands of angels.*" Footnote:
* Greek received the Law as it was ordained by angels.




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NIV - Act 7:53 -you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it.”


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ESV - Act 7:53 -“you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”



These texts reenforces that idea.

Gal 3:19Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Hbr 2:2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Was it God or angels who gave Moses the Law?

Has Moses or any man seen God?

Ref text would help your arguments.


What does the early church fathers or respected commentary say about these questions?
The only encounter the early church had with that is when Philip encountered the angel of the Lord/Spirit of the Lord in Acts 8. I suppose if it were in the same context as Moses it would redefine Christianity.
 
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Standing Up

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The only encounter the early church had with that is when Philip encountered the angel of the Lord/Spirit of the Lord in Acts 8. I suppose if it were in the same context as Moses it would redefine Christianity.


See also Mt. 28:2, Acts 5:19, Acts 12:7, and Acts 12:23.

Why would it redefine Christianity?
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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See also Mt. 28:2, Acts 5:19, Acts 12:7, and Acts 12:23.

Why would it redefine Christianity?
Perhaps not redefine but at least expand on:

Acts 8:33
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Talking about Jesus the eunich was baptised into the knowledge of who the scripture spoke of on the direct leading of the Holy Spirit.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ac 8:33Verse 33. In his humiliation. This varies from the Hebrew, but is copied exactly from the Septuagint, showing that he was reading the Septuagint. The Hebrew is, "he was taken from prison, and from judgment." The word rendered "prison" denotes any kind of detention, or even oppression. It does not mean, as with us, to be confined in a prison or jail, but may mean custody, and be applied to the detention or custody of the Saviour when his hands were bound, and he was led to be tried. Cmt. on Mt 27:2. It is not known why the Seventy thus translated the expression "he was taken from prison" etc., by "in his humiliation," etc. The word "from prison," may mean, as has been remarked, however, from oppression, and this does not differ materially from humiliation; and in this sense the Seventy understood it. The meaning of the expression in the Septuagint and the Acts is clear. It denotes that in his state of oppression and calamity, when he was destitute of protectors and friends, when at the lowest state of his humiliation, and, therefore, most the object of pity, that in addition to that, justice was denied him, his judgment--a just sentence--was taken away, or withheld, and he was delivered to be put to death. His deep humiliation and friendless state was followed by an unjust and cruel condemnation, when no one would stand forth to plead his cause. Every circumstance thus goes to deepen the view of his sufferings.

His judgment. Justice, a just sentence, was denied him, and he was cruelly condemned.
And who shall declare his generation? The word generation, used here, properly denotes posterity; then an age of mankind, comprehending about thirty years, as we speak of this and the next generation; then it denotes the men of a particular age or time. Very various interpretations have been given of this expression. Lowth translates it, "His manner of life, who would declare?" referring, as he supposes, to the fact that when a prisoner was condemned and led to execution, it was customary for a proclamation to be made by a crier in these words, "Whoever knows anything about his innocence, let him come and declare it." This passage is taken from the Gemara of Babylon.--Kennicott, as quoted by Lowth. The same Gemara of Babylon on this passage adds, that "before the death of Jesus, this proclamation was made forty days; but no defence could be found"--a manifest falsehood; and a story strikingly illustrative of the character of the Jewish writings. The Gemara was written some time after Christ, perhaps not far from the year 180, Lardher, and is a collection of commentaries on the traditional laws of the Jews. That this custom existed is very probable; but it is certain that no such thing was done on the trim of the Saviour. But instances are wanting where the word "generation" has this meaning. The Chaldee paraphrase translates the passage in Isaiah, "He shall collect our captivity from infirmities and vengeance; and who can declare what wonderful things shall be done for us in his days?" Others have referred this question to his Deity, or Divine generation; intimating that no one could explain the mystery of his eternal generation. But the word in the Scriptures has no such signification; and such a sense would not suit the connexion. (See Calvin, in loco.) Others have referred it to his own spiritual posterity, his disciples, his family: "The number of his friends and followers who could enumerate?"--Calvin, Beza, etc. But this as little suits the connexion. Another sense which the word has, is to denote the men of any particular age or time, Mt 11:16; 23:36; Lu 16:8, etc. And it has been supposed that the question here means, "Who can describe the character and wickedness of the generation when he shall breathe enormous crime of that age, in putting him to death?' This, perhaps, is the most probable interpretation of the question, for these reasons:
(1.) It is the most usual signification of the word, (see Schleusner,) and would be its obvious meaning in any other connexion.
(2.) It suits the connexion here. For the prophet immediately adds as a reason for the fact that no one can describe that generation, that he was put to death--a deed so enormous, as to make it impossible to describe the wickedness of the generation that would do it. This was the sum, the crowning act of human guilt--a deed so enormous as to defy all attempt at description. The murder of the Messiah; the crucifixion of the Son of God; the killing of the highest Messenger that heaven could send, was the consummation of all earthly wickedness. There was no other deed so enormous that could be performed; and there were no words to describe this. The same thing is implied in what the Saviour himself said, Mt 23:37-38; Lu 13:34; 19:42, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem," etc. The idea in these places is, that notwithstanding their sin in killing the prophets, and stoning those who had been sent to them, he would still have been willing to receive and pardon them, but for this enormous act of wickedness in putting the Messiah to death--a deed which they were about to accomplish, and which should be attended with the destruction of their state and nation. The Hebrew word "declare" Isa 53:8 means, properly, to meditate, to think of, and then to speak, to declare. It means probably in that place," Who can think of, who can conceive the enormity of the crimes of that age, so as fully to publish or declare them?"
For his life, etc. This is the act of wickedness just referred to--putting the Messiah to death. The Hebrew is, "For he was cut off from the land of the living," i. e., he was put to death. The expression used in the Acts was taken from the Septuagint, and means substantially the same as the Hebrew.
{*} "generation" "The men of his generation who can describe"
As witnesses of the life and death of the Messiah the disciples were to carry His message.
If it had been as Moses was directed I think we would a more complete commentary of Jesus but He lacked the protection of God and therefore a complete record before being taken away and in the words of what the eunich was reading "who can declare this?" I think Moses' teachings, while including much from man had 40 yrs of God influence and wasn't cut off ahead of time, as this scripture seems to indicate.
 
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Standing Up

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Perhaps not redefine but at least expand on:

Acts 8:33
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Talking about Jesus the eunich was baptised into the knowledge of who the scripture spoke of on the direct leading of the Holy Spirit.


As witnesses of the life and death of the Messiah the disciples were to carry His message.
If it had been as Moses was directed I think we would a more complete commentary of Jesus but He lacked the protection of God and therefore a complete record before being taken away and in the words of what the eunich was reading "who can declare this?" I think Moses' teachings, while including much from man had 40 yrs of God influence and wasn't cut off ahead of time, as this scripture seems to indicate.

Okay, good, not going toward JW (Jesus is an angel of some sort).

Everyone know about Peter and the rock, but few know about the Sons of Thunder. They were the first and last apostles to die. They were the eye witnesses. They wrote and completed the canon, although it may not have been assembled as we know it when John passed.

They declared His generation. It is all there. It is written, such that nothing more is needed (although yes, folks fight over what is unwritten).
 
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I'm amazed that the commentary seems to address the other verses you mentioned as to prison release. The interpretation gives substance to the event of Philip answering the eunich's question. That speaks to me of the need to break free from the unwritten things folks fight over.
 
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Standing Up

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I'm amazed that the commentary seems to address the other verses you mentioned as to prison release. The interpretation gives substance to the event of Philip answering the eunich's question. That speaks to me of the need to break free from the unwritten things folks fight over.

Sorry, don't know what you're saying here. But if it is something to the effect that if God wanted His witnesses alive, then yes, He'll not only raise them up, instruct them, but also protect them.

Acts 27:23 may also apply.

I'd stress the relationship of the angel of the Lord with doctrinal witnessing of what was in canon, and not with some further "revelation", such as what certain groups believe (LDS is the easy example with the angel who appeared to Joseph Smith, Roman Catholicism with Marion apparitions is the not so easy one; which perhaps speaks to your "unwritten things folks fight over").
 
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SummaScriptura

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This is a hard nut to crack.

Moses spoke with God face to face.

Stephen says it came through angels.

Perhaps Stephen is speaking of other portions from the entirety of the books of Moses. In other words, yes, God spoke face to face with Moses, but he also gave parts of the law (meaning the narrative parts too) through angels. There's a lot of angels in the Pentateuch.

Just some musings.
 
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Cribstyl

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This is a hard nut to crack.

Moses spoke with God face to face.

Stephen says it came through angels.

Perhaps Stephen is speaking of other portions from the entirety of the books of Moses. In other words, yes, God spoke face to face with Moses, but he also gave parts of the law (meaning the narrative parts too) through angels. There's a lot of angels in the Pentateuch.


Just some musings.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Exd 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
 
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