VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, I believe they will , as they will be just 2 of the 144,000, who go out to the world to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19

But Gods people are present, as the 'beast' conquers them. Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:25, Zechariah 14:1-2

The Christians who must remain under persecution, cannot be new converts, as they are identified as people who keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.
Your wrong idea of them being new converts, is impossible and your fable of the Church being raptured off to heaven before any kind of trial or test; is totally un scriptural and will not happen.

You are revising Scripture. The 6th seal is the most detailed evidence that there are no believers on Earth during the Trib. “Everyone” is gathered there. Everyone behaves only as unbelievers would behave. You can’t escape those facts. They are proof there are no believers on Earth.

The new converts that occur are converted by the 144k. They obviously teach the Ten Commandments and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How many Christians today can recite the Ten Commandments? How many can even define the gospel of Jesus Christ? You are misunderstanding the thorough effectiveness of the 144k and the reality (belief system) of the new converts in the Trib.

They wil have seen irrefutable evidence of the reality of God. They then get a profound reality on salvation by grace. They then accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit brings on their spiritual renewal.

They then want nothing more than to share the priceless gift they have just received. They learn and recite the Ten Commandments and the gospel of Jesus Christ. This drives the hardcore unbelievers crazy and they martyr every new convert they can find.

You keep denying the words of Jesus in Rev 3:10: “I will keep you FROM the hour of trial.” That can only mean that believers are not on Earth during the Trib. If we’re not on Earth during the Trib, where are we?

Apostle John proves in Rev 22:8 that he was shown everything about Rev by the angel sent to him. Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Apostle John thereby proves he never left Patmos during his vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That proves that Rev 4:1 was just another verse he was compelled to record in Scripture as a future event.

Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10 will be fulfilled by the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven, per Rev 4:1.

 

[keras]

No, who really will proclaim not the coming but the real establishment of GOD's Kingdom is written in Revelation 11:15-18:

Who then are those people in Isaiah 66:19 ?

Please cease from posting long scripture quotes. You flood the threads and we all read our Bibles, you are not my teacher.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Who then are those people in Isaiah 66:19 ?

Please cease from posting long scripture quotes. You flood the threads and we all read our Bibles, you are not my teacher.

I know this: Isaiah 66:19 has nothing to do with the Trib. You, once again, have submitted a verse that is irrelevant to our discussion.

 

[keras]

What verse mentions Christians who must remain under persecution? Keras, no believers enter the Trib. Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 that we believers will be kept from the Trib. You are at odds with Jesus in your claim.

It was Jesus who said: ....the dragon waged war on those who keep the Commandment of God and witness to Jesus. Rev 12:17
You are wrong.

Do you have any recognition of new converts in the Trib? There will be millions of them

There is no mention of any new converts during the time of world satanic control. On the contrary, we are told that ; all the world will follow the 'beast, in wondering admiration. Rev 13:3
You are wrong again.

Show me proof of Christians in the Trib. You are probably confusing them with new converts. Keras, there will be several millions of new converts in the Trib, proven by Rev 7:9. They are the GM

The faithful Christian people of God will be present when the 'beast' conquers them. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
Your confusion shows when you say Rev 7:9 is in the Great Trib. They will be the same peoples, as in Rev 12, but several years later.
3 strikes and you are OUT.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It was Jesus who said: ....the dragon waged war on those who keep the Commandment of God and witness to Jesus. Rev 12:17
You are wrong.

There is no mention of any new converts during the time of world satanic control. On the contrary, we are told that ; all the world will follow the 'beast, in wondering admiration. Rev 13:3
You are wrong again.

The faithful Christian people of God will be present when the 'beast' conquers them. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
Your confusion shows when you say Rev 7:9 is in the Great Trib. They will be the same peoples, as in Rev 12, but several years later.
3 strikes and you are OUT.

You, again, are ignoring the irrefutable proof of there being no Christians on Earth by the fact that "everyone" on Earth is present for the 6th seal. They all prove then and there that everyone of them is an unbeliever, by their very non-Christian behavior. You can't prove those are Christians.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You, again, are ignoring the irrefutable proof of there being no Christians on Earth by the fact that "everyone" on Earth is present for the 6th seal. They all prove then and there that everyone of them is an unbeliever, by their very non-Christian behavior. You can't prove those are Christians.

The 144k clearly train new converts on the Ten Commandments and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[keras]

I know this: Isaiah 66:19 has nothing to do with the Trib. You, once again, have submitted a verse that is irrelevant to our discussion.

I was replying to Oseas.
Isaiah 66:18b-21 tells us how the faithful Christian peoples will gather and live in all of the holy Land. The Lord will select 144,000 missionaries out of them to go out in pairs: Proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. As Prophesied in Revelation 7:1-14 and Rev 14:1-7

Perfectly relevant and proof of where the Lords people will be in the end times. NOT wasting time in heaven!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The 144k clearly train new converts on the Ten Commandments and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I was replying to Oseas.
Isaiah 66:18b-21 tells us how the faithful Christian peoples will gather and live in all of the holy Land. The lord will select 144,000 missionaries out of them to go out in pairs: Proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. As Prophesied in Revelation 7:1-14
Perfectly relevant and proof of where the Lords people will be in the end times. NOT wasting time in heaven!

You are making up your own verses. You are revising Rev 7 wherein it states exactly where the 144k come from. Rev 7:4-8 (ESV):

[4] And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

[5] 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
[6] 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
[7] 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
[8] 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. (ESV)

 

[keras]

You, again, are ignoring the irrefutable proof of there being no Christians on Earth by the fact that "everyone" on Earth is present for the 6th seal. They all prove then and there that everyone of them is an unbeliever, by their very non-Christian behavior. You can't prove those are Christians.

We Christians are told to take cover too; Isaiah 26:20-21
You must show when and how the Christians are raptured, or your whole belief system fails.

The 144k clearly train new converts on the Ten Commandments and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Where?
The Bible only says the 144k proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19 and it is them, not an allegorical shouting angel in Revelation 14:6-7

 

[keras]

You are making up your own verses. You are revising Rev 7 wherein it states exactly where the 144k come from. Rev 7:4-8 (ESV):

[4] And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

[5] 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
[6] 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
[7] 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
[8] 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. (ESV)

We know who and where to tribes of Judah and Benjamin, plus some of Levi, are now.
But where and who are the millions of the 10 Northern tribes?

I will inform you: They are the Christian peoples, scattered among the nations; soon to be gathered as many Prophesies say and when we arrive in the holy Land, we will all be assigned to a tribe according to our individual characteristics. Isaiah 11:11-12

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We Christians are told to take cover too; Isaiah 26:20-21
You must show when and how the Christians are raptured, or your whole belief system fails.

Where?
The Bible only says the 144k proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:19 and it is them, not an allegorical shouting angel in Revelation 14:6-7

Past verses you have submitted on that same subject did not apply to the Trib. You are quoting out-of-context, again. Those previous verses applied exclusively to the Jews held in captivity in Egypt. You continually ignore the context of the verses you present. You are trying to fool people by what those verses mean, because you don't know the context to those verses.

You can't refute that no believers are on Earth during the 6th seal, though "everyone" is present for the 6th seal, and all behave as unbelievers would only behave.

You can't refute the words of Jesus that we believers will be kept from the Trib. We will not enter the Trib. We will not be on Earth during the Trib.

You can't refute the words of Apostle John in Rev 22:8 that prove he was shown EVERYTHING he heard and saw to learn Rev, by the angel sent to show him those things.

You can't refute that Rev 4:1 is wholly in the future and is therefore the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We know who and where to tribes of Judah and Benjamin, plus some of Levi, are now.
But where and who are the millions of the 10 Northern tribes?

I will inform you: They are the Christian peoples, scattered among the nations; soon to be gathered as many Prophesies say and when we arrive in the holy Land, we will all be assigned to a tribe according to our individual characteristics. Isaiah 11:11-12

You are violating the words of Rev 7:1-8. The 144k are gathered all at once and appear in Heaven before their service in the Trib. They are all protected servants of God, who undoubtedly appear in Rev 9:4 as the ONLY people on Earth other than unbelievers --- those who dwell on the earth. Rev 9:4 (NIV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We know who and where to tribes of Judah and Benjamin, plus some of Levi, are now.
But where and who are the millions of the 10 Northern tribes?

I will inform you: They are the Christian peoples, scattered among the nations; soon to be gathered as many Prophesies say and when we arrive in the holy Land, we will all be assigned to a tribe according to our individual characteristics. Isaiah 11:11-12

You are violating the words of Rev 7:1-8. The 144k are gathered all at once and appear in Heaven before their service in the Trib. They are all protected servants of God, who undoubtedly appear in Rev 9:4 as the ONLY people on Earth other than unbelievers --- those who dwell on the earth. Rev 9:4 (NIV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We know who and where to tribes of Judah and Benjamin, plus some of Levi, are now.
But where and who are the millions of the 10 Northern tribes?

I will inform you: They are the Christian peoples, scattered among the nations; soon to be gathered as many Prophesies say and when we arrive in the holy Land, we will all be assigned to a tribe according to our individual characteristics. Isaiah 11:11-12

You can't refute that no believers are on Earth during the 6th seal, though "everyone" is present for the 6th seal, and all behave as unbelievers would only behave in Rev 6:15-17.

You can't refute the words of Jesus in Rev 3:10 that we believers will be kept from the Trib. We will not enter the Trib. We will not be on Earth during the Trib.

You can't refute the words of Apostle John in Rev 22:8 that prove he was shown EVERYTHING he heard and saw to learn Rev, by the angel sent to show him those things.

You can't refute that Rev 4:1 is wholly in the future and is therefore the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Word of GOD is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?

My Lord JESUS, Christ JESUS, make it very clear, saying: John 15:
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit He - the Father - taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

I'd suggest that the evil present within all of us will never understand, or obey, regardless of any claims to the contrary. Primarily because it's an honest claim. Mark 7:21-23

 

[Apple Sky]

You can't refute the words of Jesus in Rev 3:10 that we believers will be kept from the Trib. We will not enter the Trib. We will not be on Earth during the Trib.

In Rev 3:10 what church/people was Jesus talking about ?

I think what Jesus is saying to these people is that he will keep them safe from temptation via the trib. Meaning we are all going to be tempted by something

Revelation 3:10 — King James Version (KJV 1900)​

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

In Rev 3:10 what church/people was Jesus talking about ?

I think what Jesus is saying to these people is that he will keep them safe from temptation via the trib. Meaning we are all going to be tempted by something

Revelation 3:10 — King James Version (KJV 1900)​

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Jesus’ promise in Rev 3:10 is about the future generation who will be alive when the 7-year Trib starts. The “hour of trial” / “hour of temptation” is the 7-year Trib, otherwise known as Daniel’s 70th week in Daniel 9:27.

Jesus promised He would keep all believers from the Trib. That aligns perfectly with 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Let’s define God’s wrath. It is well-defined in Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

In the verse above, “war” is one of the most dreadful forms of God’s wrath. Here’s Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:4 is about the 2nd seal. It will feature one of the four most dreadful forms of God’s wrath: wars. Wars in the 2nd seal will occur all over the world simultaneously. It’s truly Hell on Earth. Many inhabitants of Earth will be killed.

So, we know that God’s wrath will come in the 2nd seal. That satisfies the requirement for God’s wrath, at the beginning of the Trib, for the purposes of 1 Th 1:10.

“Delivers us” in 1 Th 1:10 relates to the second usage of “deliverance,” in the Bible. That second usage translates to “snatch away.” Therefore, that verse is about our being “snatched away” when God’s wrath will come in the Trib. We know from Rev 6:4 that God’s wrath will come in the 2nd seal.

1 Th 1:10 is the first verse Apostle Paul wrote about the pre-Trib rapture. We will be raptured (snatched away) from Earth immediately prior to the Trib due to God’s wrath about to come in the 2nd seal.

That is what Jesus means in Rev 3:10. He will keep us from “the hour of trial.” We believers will not enter the 7-year Trib.

 

[Apple Sky]

This was part 5 of a new end-time Bible prophecy series "The Post-Tribulation Rapture & the Great Day of God's Wrath." Jesus and the Apostles were very clear in the Bible about the timing of the rapture in the sequence of end-time events.
Jesus taught that the rapture or resurrection of the righteous dead and we which are alive at His coming would be "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-31).
And the Apostle John confirms this in the book of Revelation as does the Apostle Paul in his letters to the churches.
There is also a big misconception about the "day of wrath." Do not let misguided pastors and indoctrinated Christians deceive you about this at the very time we are close to entering the Great Tribulation.

 

[OnePlanPeopleDestiny]

Scripture teaches that there's only one last trumpet, only one first resurrection of the dead in Christ, only one gathering of all living saints, only one second coming of our Lord and King Jesus Christ. There is no secret pretrib rapture taught in scripture; it is the private interpretation of man. We will be snatched up to meet the Lord as He is returning to pour out HIS wrath on an unbelieving world. Peace and blessings to all my brothers and sisters in Christ. Amen amen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This was part 5 of a new end-time Bible prophecy series "The Post-Tribulation Rapture & the Great Day of God's Wrath." Jesus and the Apostles were very clear in the Bible about the timing of the rapture in the sequence of end-time events.
Jesus taught that the rapture or resurrection of the righteous dead and we which are alive at His coming would be "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-31).
And the Apostle John confirms this in the book of Revelation as does the Apostle Paul in his letters to the churches.
There is also a big misconception about the "day of wrath." Do not let misguided pastors and indoctrinated Christians deceive you about this at the very time we are close to entering the Great Tribulation.

Let me be respectfully as brief as I can. Anyone who says Matt 24:31 is the rapture, is sorely mistaken. The primary rapture verses are 1 Th 4:16-17. Now, there are other verses that complement those two verses, but Matt 24:31 isn't one of them. For instance, the trumpet in verse 31 and the trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 serve entirely different purposes. Also, each one is sounded only once, so they can't be said to have multiple roles, when neither is sounded more than once.

In Matt 24:31, the trumpet blast sends out angels to gather "the elect." Now, in the context of the Trib and the 2A (2nd Advent), we need to know our applicable definitions. In the context of the Trib and the 2A, "the elect" refers only to Jews. We must remember that the Jews are the reason for the Trib. That is made crystal clear in Matt 23:37-39. They are on a different track in the Trib, and in the 2A. Their country also gets the brunt of what goes on in the Trib.

So, let's understand, that what is meant by "the elect" in the Trib and 2A is solely about native-born Israelites. That is also true of Matt 24:31. Those gathered are the Jews who fled religious persecution in Israel over centuries. They fled to many different countries. The purpose of Matt 24:31 is to gather all of those exiled Jews and bring them back home. It is an exceedingly beautiful gesture by God to send out His angels to specifically bring home all the exiled Jews.

Lastly, about Matt 24:31, that gathering has no distinct destination. Where does that gathering go? If that verse was related to the rapture, it would be a gathering "unto Him," as in 2 Th 2:1; 1 Th 4:17; and John 14:3. A "gathering unto Him" occurs in all of those rapture verses, but not in Matt 24:31. It is logical to then conclude that those Jews are gathered either for Rev 19:14 or Matt 25:33-40. The key is, the gathering in Matt 24:31 does not go to Heaven, as all rapture verses do immediately.

So, Matt 24:31 fails in every detail about about being a rapture verse. It's a very beautiful verse for its stated purpose. But, that purpose is not a rapture to Heaven.