Understanding the Christian divide in politics

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What if people's lives depended on our reliability? China sees us abandoning Europe, well, I guess that means Taiwan is fair game. Iran and Hezbollah see us abandoning Ukraine, well, I guess America is inconsistent and won't be there for Israel. North Korea sees us walk away from our closest allies of the EU, well, America won't be there for south Korea either. Etc.

Who has killed more people in the last 100 years, the USA or North Korea? Who has started more needless wars, China or the USA?

It's more than reputation. It's about security and trust. Reliability.

Why should the reputation of the USA be a Christian's concern? Which country is threatening to invade the USA?

It's like showing up to work every day. Or being there for your friends. It's not about reputation, it's about being responsible.

Is it responsible to use Ukraine as proxy for getting at Russia?

You say you're going to be there to help your friend in a time of need, and then when the going gets tough, you abandon them? If you leave them, they'll never trust you again.

The USA had many 'friends' and should thr average American be willing to die for Americas friends?

And guess what, if America was ever attacked by Russia, guess who would be there? The EU. Which may not be saying a whole lot depending on the nation. But it's still a valid point.

Why would Russia attack the USA?

Because if we aren't in a position of authority, and we hand that over to Putin, then it will be Russia in a position of authority. And look at what they've done already. It will embolden further invasions of the Baltic states and further subjugation of our allies in europe Europe. It will embolden Iran against Israel, China against taiwan, and more.

So Hitler is just the 10th Hitler to be opposed?

As an example, the military power of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are a fraction of the military power of Ukraine. If not for the US, Putin would march right through all three of them. Same with Moldova. Poland would naturally be pulled in.

And why does this concern the USA? Does the USA need more military bases in Europe?

Simultaneously we have Russia weaponizing natural gas resources, by cutting off supplies that people need to survive winter in Germany. Is this the nation you would rather hand authority over to? Same with North Korea or Iran. Iran has a national holiday in anticipation of the destruction of America. Is that who you want in power or want to hand over power to?

Hold on. It was Ukraine or the USA that destroyed Nordstream, not Russia. Why are the Germans entitled to Russias natural gas?

You know that Iran also has higher taxes for non-muslims and has laws that include death to apostates of Islam. Is that really who you want to hand power over to? The same nation that wants to destroy Israel as well.

So the USA should fight Iran?

Or north Korea, do we really even need to explain this?

So should the USA invade North Korea?

Meanwhile in the US, despite its shortcomings, there is religious freedom. It's what our nation was founded on.

Okay and why should I as a Christian support your country which is becoming increasingly Godless?

 

[Job 33:6]

Hold on. It was Ukraine or the USA that destroyed Nordstream, not Russia. Why are the Germans entitled to Russias natural gas?

It's not about entitlement. It's about Russia weaponizing resources that people use to survive winter. Just because a resource comes from a country, that doesn't make it right to cut it off in an effort to freeze people to death.

So the USA should fight Iran?

So should the USA invade North Korea?

No. But you would be wise not to allow them to conquer their neighbors.

Nobody is invading Russia. But we are helping Ukraine survive against Russians invasion.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It's not about entitlement. It's about Russia weaponizing resources that people use to survive winter. Just because a resource comes from a country, that doesn't make it right to cut it off in an effort to freeze people to death.

Weaponizing resources. How does that work. If someone has something someone else needs, it's their duty to give it up?

I agree that it's terrible for Germany and it's economy that it no longer has cheap Russian energy but that is a consequence of German leadership backing Ukraine instead of remaining neutral.

No. But you would be wise not to allow them to conquer their neighbors.

Who does Iran want to conquer and why should the USA and it's clients go all out to stop them?

Nobody is invading Russia. But we are helping Ukraine survive against Russians invasion.

You understand that Russia was asking for Ukranian neutrality prior to the invasion. How has the USA helped Ukraine by using them as a proxy?

 

[Job 33:6]

Weaponizing resources. How does that work. If someone has something someone else needs, it's their duty to give it up?

If people depend on it to survive winter, then morally, you shouldn't just pull the rug from under them.

Not sure why you're trying to justify Russia's actions on this.

And really this is a perfect example of why it wouldn't be reasonable to grant Putin more power. He's willing to risk millions freezing to death in order to hang on to crimea.

You understand that Russia was asking for Ukranian neutrality prior to the invasion.

There's no justification for Russia invading its neighbors land and destroying them. You're making up justifications for war.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If people depend on it to survive winter, then morally, you shouldn't just pull the rug from under them.

Is that what Russia did? As I understand it Germany agreed to sanction Russis.

Not sure why you're trying to justify Russia's actions on this.

I don't understand how you think Germany is entitled to Russian natural gas.

There's no justification for Russia invading its neighbors land and destroying them. You're making up justifications for war.

Alright so we're back to my original question. Is defending Ukraine worth a potential WW3?

 

[Job 33:6]

Is that what Russia did? As I understand it Germany agreed to sanction Russis.

Yea, after Russia started blowing up half of Ukraine.

I don't understand how you think Germany is entitled to Russian natural gas.

They aren't entitled. But that doesn't make attempting to freeze Germans to death a good thing to do.

Alright so we're back to my original question. Is defending Ukraine worth a potential WW3?

Yes. Because it's not just about Ukraine. Every single one of those Baltic nations is on Putins hit list. And he's clearly lost his mind threatening a nuclear apocalypse every other day.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yea, after Russia started blowing up half of Ukraine.

And why would Russia then give natural gas to Germany?

They aren't entitled. But that doesn't make attempting to freeze Germans to death a good thing to do.

Is it not on the Germans to come to terms with the Russians if they are that desperate for cheap energy?

Yes. Because it's not just about Ukraine. Every single one of those Baltic nations is on Putins hit list. And he's clearly lost his mind threatening a nuclear apocalypse every other day.

If Putin isn't a reasonable actor then it literally doesn't matter what the US does. I tend to think Putin is reasonable even if you can't agree with his motives and this should mean coming to terms. But if you're right and he's Hitler version 6 that the USA absolutely had to defeat no matter the cost then it doesn't matter. My only question for you is are you willing to die for Estonia?

 

[Job 33:6]

And why would Russia then give natural gas to Germany?

Because invading Ukraine doesn't then give someone a good reason to freeze people to death.

If Putin isn't a reasonable actor then it literally doesn't matter what the US does. I tend to think Putin is reasonable even if you can't agree with his motives and this should mean coming to terms. But if you're right and he's Hitler version 6 that the USA absolutely had to defeat no matter the cost then it doesn't matter. My only question for you is are you willing to die for Estonia?

Yes. Because it's not just Estonia. It's Lithuania, Latvia, Moldova, Poland. Now we have Sweden and Finland joining NATO. Europe as a whole is in danger. And therefore, us too.

but also, Id say you're thinking too highly of Putin.

It's not about life or death. Rather it's about doing what's right. Nobody wanted to fight Hitler. But we all just had to do what we had to do.

And if Putin is as reasonable as you think he is, then he ought to put an end to his interests in invading all his neighbors.

And supporting Ukraine also does not require a result of WW3. An alternative result is Putin simply going home.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Because invading Ukraine doesn't then give someone a good reason to freeze people to death.

It's not Russia that's freezing the Germans. If the Germans know support for Ukraine costs them x resource then that's on them.

Yes. Because it's not just Estonia. It's Lithuania, Latvia, Moldova, Poland. Now we have Sweden and Finland joining NATO. Europe as a whole is in danger. And therefore, us too.

So Russia wants to conquer the world?

but also, Id say you're thinking too highly of Putin.

I do think more highly of him than you do obviously. I think if Putin was as unstable as you're portraying he would launched the nukes already.

It's not about life or death. Rather it's about doing what's right. Nobody wanted to fight Hitler. But we all just had to do what we had to do.

So therefore we must fight Total wars to defeat every enemy of the USA who happens to be a Hitler?

And supporting Ukraine also does not require a result of WW3. An alternative result is Putin simply going home.

Magical thinking. Putin and Russia cannot just go home. That's not how the world works.

 

[Job 33:6]

It's not Russia that's freezing the Germans. If the Germans know support for Ukraine costs them x resource then that's on them.

Well obviously Germany misunderstood the circumstances when they signed their initial agreements with gazprom. An error that they're unlikely to make again for the foreseeable future.

But still, doesn't make it make it right nonetheless.

So Russia wants to conquer the world?

Well, for starters Putin wants to maime all the Baltic states. You've mentioned Estonia. But you can add Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, and Poland to that list. Starting with Ukraine of course.

I do think more highly of him than you do obviously. I think if Putin was as unstable as you're portraying he would launched the nukes already.

There is no "already". It's a yes or no option. And any leader willing to launch nuclear weapons over Ukraine, is automatically on the crazy list. He suggests that he may. Who are we to assume that he's bluffing?

So therefore we must fight Total wars to defeat every enemy of the USA who happens to be a Hitler?

When a Hitler arises. Sometimes you just have to be prepared to step up to the plate. Well, unless you want to be maimed too.

But again, supporting Ukraine does not automatically result in WW3. Putin can, as unimaginable as you think it may be, simply accept defeat.

And I don't think Putin is as bad as Hitler. However, my opinion would quickly change if he used nuclear weapons.

Magical thinking. Putin and Russia cannot just go home. That's not how the world works.

Why not?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I guess that's a concern but more for those on the right side of politics. Those on the Left seem to think the literalness of Scripture shouldn't determine anything. It for instance can be literally true that abortion or porn is immoral and or evil, but both must be legally acceptable.

Yes, the Left is able to bracket their religion and objectively look at it on a par with other religions and even non religious beliefs that exist in our culture where there is not dominant religion. Legal acceptability is a matter for courts and legislature to decide.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Well obviously Germany misunderstood the circumstances when they signed their initial agreements with gazprom. An error that they're unlikely to make again for the foreseeable future.

I think Germany well understood the circumstances as does any country. You are simply being unreasonable in expecting one enemy to support the other.

But still, doesn't make it make it right nonetheless.

If someone is aiding an enemy of mine, it is perfectly right to no longer supply that person with stuff they want or need. Again, Russian natural gas is not a right. It's a product.

Well, for starters Putin wants to maime all the Baltic states. You've mentioned Estonia. But you can add Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, and Poland to that list. Starting with Ukraine of course.

I mean if that's true you might as well commit the USA directly because WW3 is now inevitable. I personally think Putin knows that attacking NATO in the long run simply won't work. I mean, risk assessment is possible and Putin isn't a Russian Ultra nationalist.

There is no "already". It's a yes or no option. And any leader willing to launch nuclear weapons over Ukraine, is automatically on the crazy list. He suggests that he may. Who are we to assume that he's bluffing?

He's not bluffing but he's reminding Western leaders of what potential interference in Ukraine could lead to. It's a very real threat, but one he probably doesn't want to make good on because of the consequences. Yet they are always there as a final option.

When a Hitler arises. Sometimes you just have to be prepared to step up to the plate. Well, unless you want to be maimed too.

Some of us are not willing to sacrifices ourselves in order to stop the new Hitler. It seems every enemy the USA fights and that Neocons like yourself argue for military confrontation with is a new Hitler and it get's tiring after a while. Strategic necessity, the bloat of empire, these are all beyond your thinking and you don't seem to care about the consequences of the US presence globally. Rather at any cost you would see it extended even if it means provoking a war.

But again, supporting Ukraine does not automatically result in WW3. Putin can, as unimaginable as you think it may be, simply accept defeat.

Again magical thinking. This is not how wars realistically end. You need to come to terms, not just expect the other side to agree with you and give up.

And I don't think Putin is as bad as Hitler. However, my opinion would quickly change if he used nuclear weapons.

If he's not as bad as Hitler then he can be negotiated with. The thing is, you seem to think he's worse and that he's crazy and utterly irrational.

Why not?

Name an instance of this happening with a conflict of this scale.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think Germany well understood the circumstances as does any country. You are simply being unreasonable in expecting one enemy to support the other.

If Germany had anticipated an effort to freeze it's population to death, it's pretty obvious they wouldn't have made a deal to purchase gas from Russia to begin with.

If someone is aiding an enemy of mine, it is perfectly right to no longer supply that person with stuff they want or need. Again, Russian natural gas is not a right. It's a product.

Again, cutting this product off in an effort to freeze innocent people to death is not a good thing to do. And there really is no way to rationally justify such an action.

I mean if that's true you might as well commit the USA directly because WW3 is now inevitable. I personally think Putin knows that attacking NATO in the long run simply won't work. I mean, risk assessment is possible and Putin isn't a Russian Ultra nationalist.

For now, I would agree. So long as NATO remains united, and the US remains supportive of the EU.

He's not bluffing but he's reminding Western leaders of what potential interference in Ukraine could lead to. It's a very real threat, but one he probably doesn't want to make good on because of the consequences. Yet they are always there as a final option.

Sure. Hence why he must be stopped. No rational leader would threaten a nuclear apocalypse over Ukraine. Yet Putin does this on a regular basis.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think Germany well understood the circumstances as does any country. You are simply being unreasonable in expecting one enemy to support the other.

If someone is aiding an enemy of mine, it is perfectly right to no longer supply that person with stuff they want or need. Again, Russian natural gas is not a right. It's a product.

I mean if that's true you might as well commit the USA directly because WW3 is now inevitable. I personally think Putin knows that attacking NATO in the long run simply won't work. I mean, risk assessment is possible and Putin isn't a Russian Ultra nationalist.

He's not bluffing but he's reminding Western leaders of what potential interference in Ukraine could lead to. It's a very real threat, but one he probably doesn't want to make good on because of the consequences. Yet they are always there as a final option.

Some of us are not willing to sacrifices ourselves in order to stop the new Hitler. It seems every enemy the USA fights and that Neocons like yourself argue for military confrontation with is a new Hitler and it get's tiring after a while. Strategic necessity, the bloat of empire, these are all beyond your thinking and you don't seem to care about the consequences of the US presence globally. Rather at any cost you would see it extended even if it means provoking a war.

Again magical thinking. This is not how wars realistically end. You need to come to terms, not just expect the other side to agree with you and give up.

If he's not as bad as Hitler then he can be negotiated with. The thing is, you seem to think he's worse and that he's crazy and utterly irrational.

Name an instance of this happening with a conflict of this scale.

And if he is willing to negotiate, then we wouldn't want the best hand possible to negotiate with, and that's further reason to support Ukraine. He's not going to negotiate if he doesn't have a reason to.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

And if he is willing to negotiate, then we wouldn't want the best hand possible to negotiate with, and that's further reason to support Ukraine. He's not going to negotiate if he doesn't have a reason to.

You're assuming the Ukraine can beat Russia and that has not been demonstrated. Are you willing to risk the lives and future of Ukraine itself simply so that it becomes another satellite regime under the USA? I gotta give Neo conservatives like yourself credit, you are willing to kill millions in the advance of US world hegemony. I don't think I have that in me.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You mean the left is more willing to act as if religion, even their own religion, is not true. Objectivity doesn't mean pure or total secularism. When it comes to any court or law, the so called Christian left prefers law and the courts to act as if atheism were true.

Just being pragmatic. We cannot expect a society that is secular to comply with our Christian beliefs. We can advocate for them but as I have said before, even Christians do not agree on those beliefs and theri practical applications.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Just being pragmatic. We cannot expect a society that is secular to comply with our Christian beliefs. We can advocate for them but as I have said before, even Christians do not agree on those beliefs and theri practical applications.

There's pragmatism but then there's also giving way. Your politics and way of doing things is Indistinguishable from a leftist atheists way of doing things.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

There's pragmatism but then there's also giving way. Your politics and way of doing things is Indistinguishable from a leftist atheists way of doing things.

Did you miss that part where I said, "We can advocate for..."?

We can advocate for beliefs and values and vote accordingly.

Evidently you want to force your own beliefs on the culture.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Did you miss that part where I said, "We can advocate for..."?

We can advocate for beliefs and values and vote accordingly.

Evidently you want to force your own beliefs on the culture.

I want my values to influence culture yes. What Christian value that is explicitly Christian, would you advocate for against the interests of the secular left?

 

[Job 33:6]

You're assuming the Ukraine can beat Russia and that has not been demonstrated. Are you willing to risk the lives and future of Ukraine itself simply so that it becomes another satellite regime under the USA? I gotta give Neo conservatives like yourself credit, you are willing to kill millions in the advance of US world hegemony. I don't think I have that in me.

I'd say that the possibility has been demonstrated. Demonstrated in Russia's retreat from Kyiv. Their retreat from Kherson. Their retreat from Kharkiv. The systematic elimination of their naval ships. The vulnerability of their borders. Among other things.

Has nothing to do with US hegemony, and everything to do with liberty of a free peoples. Nobody is saying that Ukraine should go take over Moscow. But if it's a question of protecting illegally annexed oblasts of Ukraine (that Russia annexed yet still has yet to gain control of)? That's justice.