Twenty thousand horsemen - NOT 200 million

[3 Resurrections]

"And the number of the forces of the horsemen is two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them." (Revelation 9:16 - YLT)

The usual interpretation of this verse has mistakenly multiplied these numbers of "two myriads of myriads" together. The resulting inflated number totals an army of horsemen so vast that it has led to many fantastical suggestions as to which country on earth could possibly field this many combatants at one time.

The word "myriad" means 10,000. Two myriads (2 X 10,000) are equal to 20,000 TOTAL. Are we to multiply this yet again by another 10,000? No, not according to the Jewish writing technique that is prevalent throughout scripture.

When special emphasis is to be put on a subject, the pattern in scripture is to double the word. This is why we have Christ saying "Verily, verily, I say unto you". This is why the Hebrew people in Egypt when making well-fired brick were said to "burn them to a burning". This is why Christ "led captivity captive" (meaning a multitude of captives). This is why Belshazzar's writing on the wall said "Mene, mene" twice, just for emphasis that God had really, really numbered his kingdom and finished it in Daniel 5:25-26.

For even more added emphasis placed upon something, scripture will triple the word, such as "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." Such as the final three most severe trumpet judgments in Revelation 8:13, when the angel said, "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabiters of the earth...". Such as Jeremiah 7:4 warning against the deceivers who would try to trick the people by repeatedly saying "the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these."

This Hebrew writing technique is a reflection of the Hebrew law in Deuteronomy 19:15 stating "...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." This double and triple emphasis applied to visions as well, such as Peter's vision of the sheet and the unclean animals. This vision was repeated no less than three times in Acts 10:16 for absolute certainty about God's mind on the matter of the Gentile believers being considered clean in His sight. Such as Joseph telling Pharaoh about his double dream of the fat and lean cattle, and the full and withered ears of corn. "And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass."

Certainty and imminence.

These are the two reasons for doubling something in scripture, as King Belshazzar found out that very night when his kingdom was taken from him. God meant "Mene, mene" to apply to that very same night of drunken revelry when Belshazzar's kingdom ended.

Now, backing up again to Revelation 9:16's "two myriads of myriads" of horsemen when John heard their very specific number. This is yet another example of the "two myriads" being repeated once more, just for emphasis on how certain John knew their number to be. Also just how imminent this prophecy was for that time period.

We are not to multiply these numbers together to arrive at 200 million. It is a very certain, very definite 20,000 TOTAL HORSEMEN. For this prophecy, God had determined not only the exact year, but the month, the day, and even down to the very hour when these 20,000 horsemen would kill the third part of men during this 6th trumpet judgment in Jerusalem. It was that certain to happen. And it was that soon to happen for John's readers.

 

[ewq1938]

"And the number of the forces of the horsemen is two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them." (Revelation 9:16 - YLT)

The usual interpretation of this verse has mistakenly multiplied these numbers of "two myriads of myriads" together. The resulting inflated number totals an army of horsemen so vast that it has led to many fantastical suggestions as to which country on earth could possibly field this many combatants at one time.

The word "myriad" means 10,000. Two myriads (2 X 10,000) are equal to 20,000 TOTAL.

That only would be "two myriads" but leaves out the other use of myriads.


Gill:

were two hundred thousand thousand; or "two myriads of myriads"; two hundred millions, or twenty thousand brigades of ten thousand each; that is, a very large and prodigious number, almost infinite and incredible,

Barnes:

Were two hundred thousand thousand - A thousand thousand is one million, and consequently the number here referred to would be 200 million.


Clarke:

Two hundred thousand thousand - Δυο μυριαδες μυριαδων· Two myriads of myriads; that is, two hundred millions; an army that was never yet got together from the foundation of the world, and could not find forage in any part of the earth.


1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Here is the same word, used once which is 10,000 but when the word is compounded in a double usage, it's far more than 20,000.

The Greek scholars quoted above have understood it correctly.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Greek scholars quoted above have understood it correctly.

I'm sorry, but none of these scholars you have listed caught the Hebrew writing technique that John employed using the pattern of double emphasis for the certainty and imminence factors. Remember, John's Revelation was saturated with OT symbolism from the OT prophets. The double and triple emphasis is found in this book elsewhere, besides just this one verse.

In addition, the number of men that these horsemen killed in this sixth trumpet judgment that took place in Jerusalem amounted to a total of 7,002. That was 7,000 killed during the same hour the earthquake took place in Revelation 11:13, and the two witnesses in addition. That is the "third part of men" in Jerusalem that were killed in this sixth trumpet.

Do the math. Let's say you and these scholars are correct on the horsemen numbering 200 million. That means it would have to take 200 million to kill 7,002 people. Do you realize what that means? The battle odds for that number would mean it would take all of 28,563 horsemen to kill just ONE MAN. That doesn't say very much about the supposed battle skill of the proposed number of 200 million that was supposedly so overpowering in Revelation 9:17-19.

On the contrary, if I am correct on this 20,000 number of horsemen, then the battle odds would be reduced to a more realistic 3 to 1 ratio.

 

[ewq1938]

On the contrary, if I am correct on this 20,000 number of horsemen, then the battle odds would be reduced to a more realistic 3 to 1 ratio.

The Greek words needed to represent only 20,000 aren't used. What is used is something that represents far larger of a number. The Greek scholars are correct on this.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Greek words needed to represent only 20,000 aren't used.

This is the same type of language that was used to describe the battle strength of God's chariots in Psalms 68:17 (KJV). "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them as in Sinai, in the holy place." With a literal rendering, this verse says, "God's chariots, two myriads of thousands, and again myriads of thousands:" (literally, "of repetition:") "the Lord among them, Sinai in holiness." This shows us that God's mighty strength in battle is represented by the "two myriads of thousands", or "twenty thousand" chariots that accompany Him.

The battle strength of the number of horsemen in Revelation 9:16 (twenty thousand) was meant to reflect that same number of God's chariots in Psalms 68:17 (twenty thousand). Their mission was a God-ordained one; executing His divine purpose, with the same level of His power given to them in order to accomplish that purpose.

 

[BobRyan]

We are not to multiply these numbers together to arrive at 200 million. It is a very certain, very definite 20,000 TOTAL HORSEMEN. For this prophecy, God had determined not only the exact year, but the month, the day, and even down to the very hour when these 20,000 horsemen would kill the third part of men during this 6th trumpet judgment in Jerusalem. It was that certain to happen. And it was that soon to happen for John's readers.

you are dealing with a number not a phrase like "This is very very important"

Like the 144,000 in Rev 7 - given as 12 thousand from each tribe. No matter how many times it repeats 12, or twelve thousand you have add them up... because it is a number.

 

[DavidPT]

"And the number of the forces of the horsemen is two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them." (Revelation 9:16 - YLT)

The usual interpretation of this verse has mistakenly multiplied these numbers of "two myriads of myriads" together. The resulting inflated number totals an army of horsemen so vast that it has led to many fantastical suggestions as to which country on earth could possibly field this many combatants at one time.

The word "myriad" means 10,000. Two myriads (2 X 10,000) are equal to 20,000 TOTAL. Are we to multiply this yet again by another 10,000? No, not according to the Jewish writing technique that is prevalent throughout scripture.

When special emphasis is to be put on a subject, the pattern in scripture is to double the word. This is why we have Christ saying "Verily, verily, I say unto you". This is why the Hebrew people in Egypt when making well-fired brick were said to "burn them to a burning". This is why Christ "led captivity captive" (meaning a multitude of captives). This is why Belshazzar's writing on the wall said "Mene, mene" twice, just for emphasis that God had really, really numbered his kingdom and finished it in Daniel 5:25-26.

For even more added emphasis placed upon something, scripture will triple the word, such as "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts." Such as the final three most severe trumpet judgments in Revelation 8:13, when the angel said, "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabiters of the earth...". Such as Jeremiah 7:4 warning against the deceivers who would try to trick the people by repeatedly saying "the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are these."

This Hebrew writing technique is a reflection of the Hebrew law in Deuteronomy 19:15 stating "...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." This double and triple emphasis applied to visions as well, such as Peter's vision of the sheet and the unclean animals. This vision was repeated no less than three times in Acts 10:16 for absolute certainty about God's mind on the matter of the Gentile believers being considered clean in His sight. Such as Joseph telling Pharaoh about his double dream of the fat and lean cattle, and the full and withered ears of corn. "And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass."

Certainty and imminence.

These are the two reasons for doubling something in scripture, as King Belshazzar found out that very night when his kingdom was taken from him. God meant "Mene, mene" to apply to that very same night of drunken revelry when Belshazzar's kingdom ended.

Now, backing up again to Revelation 9:16's "two myriads of myriads" of horsemen when John heard their very specific number. This is yet another example of the "two myriads" being repeated once more, just for emphasis on how certain John knew their number to be. Also just how imminent this prophecy was for that time period.

We are not to multiply these numbers together to arrive at 200 million. It is a very certain, very definite 20,000 TOTAL HORSEMEN. For this prophecy, God had determined not only the exact year, but the month, the day, and even down to the very hour when these 20,000 horsemen would kill the third part of men during this 6th trumpet judgment in Jerusalem. It was that certain to happen. And it was that soon to happen for John's readers.

You are adding 10,000 plus 10,000 when you should be multiplying 10,000 times 10,000 then multiply that by two. It comes up to around 200 million.

10,000 times 10,000 = 100,000,000. 100,000,000 times 2 = 200,000,000

Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Or to make it even simpler, just use what is recorded in this verse, like such---200(two hundred) times 1000(thousand) = 200,000. 200,000 times 1000(thousand) = 200,000,000

The math comes out the same either way, therefore undeniably proving 200 million is meant.

 

[friend of]

What country are you from @3 Resurrections ?

 

[3 Resurrections]

you are dealing with a number not a phrase like "This is very very important"

It's both. Not either / or.

And this prophecy has already been fulfilled back in the first century during the plotted Idumean attack on Jerusalem.

Josephus tells us that there were 20,000 Idumean warriors who were tricked by John of Gischala into coming against Jerusalem under 4 commanders, all listed by name in Wars 4.4.2.235 (compared with the 4 messengers of Revelation 9:14-15).

During the Idumeans' nighttime attack, Josephus said a prodigious storm had broken out, with "amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake" (Wars. 4.4.5.286 compared with Revelation 11:13's earthquake that took place the same hour as the death of the two witnesses in Jerusalem).

That morning, these Idumeans (in league with the Zealots who had tricked them into coming) had hunted down and slain the two former high priests, Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel (Revelation 11's 2 witnesses). These two former high priests had been restricting the two radical factions then in Jerusalem from their full oppression of the city's inhabitants (the restricting "torment" in Revelation 11:10 that these two witnesses had caused these two other radical parties present in the city).

The Idumeans then stripped Ananas and Joshua's bodies, leaving them unburied (as in Revelation 11:9). They then stood on top of their dead bodies; making jokes about both of their speeches to the people, who had been urging restraint for the Zealots' radical warmongering efforts (the "rejoicing and making merry" in Revelation 11:10, once the two witnesses were dead and their testimony to the people eliminated).

By that morning, Josephus wrote in Wars 4.5.1.313 that 8,500 dead bodies had piled up in Jerusalem after the battle, the earthquake, and a group of those who committed suicide rather than be taken by the Idumeans. (Which is remarkably similar to the 7,000 slain during the earthquake in Revelation 11:13).

By murdering the two witnesses Ananas and Joshua and their more moderate followers, fully one out of the three factions present in Jerusalem at the time was wiped out (Ananas' moderate faction being the "third part of men" that were slain in Revelation 9:15 by the 20,000 horsemen). This left the 2 other competitive factions in Jerusalem after the attack by the 20,000 Idumeans: the deceptive John of Gischala in power with his followers, and also the Zealots led by Eleazar and Zacharias forming their opposition.

A tragic episode, but one foreordained by God in judgment on the city of Jerusalem, even before the Romans arrived under Titus.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What country are you from @3 Resurrections ?

The deep South in the US. "It's a whole other country", as Forrest Gump would say.

 

[DavidPT]

It's both. Not either / or.

And this prophecy has already been fulfilled back in the first century during the plotted Idumean attack on Jerusalem.

Josephus tells us that there were 20,000 Idumean warriors who were tricked by John of Gischala into coming against Jerusalem under 4 commanders, all listed by name in Wars 4.4.2.235 (compared with the 4 messengers of Revelation 9:14-15).

Let's assume one is to add 10,000 plus 10,000 rather than multiply those together. That still doesn't add up to 20,000 since this ignores the following Greek word recorded in that verse---duo---a primary numeral; "two":--both, twain, two.


That means it is meaning 2 times what thousand thousand is meaning. That comes up to 40,000 not 20,000.

I realize you are being serious per what you are proposing, yet I can't take what you are proposing as serious. The math doesn't work out with what you are proposing per Josephus' account no matter how you look at it.

 

[DavidPT]

We are not to multiply these numbers together to arrive at 200 million. It is a very certain, very definite 20,000 TOTAL HORSEMEN. For this prophecy, God had determined not only the exact year, but the month, the day, and even down to the very hour when these 20,000 horsemen would kill the third part of men during this 6th trumpet judgment in Jerusalem. It was that certain to happen. And it was that soon to happen for John's readers.

1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.


This verse proves numbers like that are to be multiplied.

an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

If we add those together this alone equals 570,000. That means this---a thousand thousand has to be involving more than 570,000, obviously. If we add 1000 plus 1000 that only totals 2000. One is to believe all they of Israel only totaled 2000? Isn't that what thousand thousand adds up to if we add those 2 numbers? We need to multiply these not add them. 1000 times 1000 = 1 million.


2 Samuel 24:9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

This verse records 800,000

1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

Assuming thousand thousand = 1 million, this verse records 1 million and 100,000. That is 300 thousand more than 2 Samuel 24:9 records.

1 Chronicles 27:1-15 record 288,000 total.

2 Chronicles 1:14 records 12,000.

800,000 + 288,000 + 12,000 = 1 million and 100,000, thus agrees with 1 Chronicles 21:5, or it's just a coincidence how the math works out like this I guess. No matter what, 2 Samuel 24:9 alone undeniably proves that thousand thousand has to be multiplied. That means the same is true in Revelation 9 and that thousand thousand in question.

 

[Jamdoc]

Seems like a stretch to try and justify preterism.

Sorry, doesn't work.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I find it strange that no one is paying any attention at all to the very precise matching chronology of the Idumean attack on Jerusalem after the AD 66 war had begun, as compared to the Revelation 9-11 account of the sixth trumpet judgment, which included these 20,000 horsemen. These matching chronologies are not going away. What are the odds that this extensive series of historical events recorded in Josephus is such a close match for the predicted events listed in Revelation 9-11 for the sixth trumpet judgment? Far too many connections to be merely coincidental.

I once gave Dr. K. Gentry a version of this series of events recorded in Josephus that matched Revelation's sixth trumpet judgment. He responded that he already had definitely noticed the same similarity, but eventually chose to discard these obvious connections for one reason. He simply could not see why God would have designed a plan to have the 2 witnesses killed and still call them HIS 2 witnesses. He thought it wrong that an era which was God's judgment of demonstrably dissolving the high priesthood would have still been calling these two former high priests HIS 2 witnesses. I thought that was a very weak rebuttal, since scripture shows plenty of examples of God having His own prophets die, after they have performed what He wanted them to accomplish for Him during a certain time period.

There are even examples such as God the "King" in the Matthew 22:7 parable sending out "HIS armies" to burn up the city of those who had murdered His servants - even though this was going to utilize pagan and corrupt agencies to accomplish God's ultimate purpose of burning up the city of Jerusalem. So, I cannot see how this objection of Dr. K. Gentry's was a valid one.

That means it is meaning 2 times what thousand thousand is meaning. That comes up to 40,000 not 20,000.

The term "myriad" is a stand-alone unit amounting to 10,000. Similarly, the Psalms 68:17 verse interprets "two myriads of thousands" as being "twenty thousand" of God's chariots in total. This verse does not multiply 2 X 10,000 x multiple 1,000's, as you are thinking it should. Just like the word "myriad", scripture uses the word "thousand" as a similar stand-alone military unit, such as David being sent as a young man to the captain of his brothers' "thousand".

We use the same type of military terminology to refer to a "platoon", a "battallion", or a "company" today. These are all terms composed of a set, numbered amount. Likewise, in Roman times, a "legion" was a certain number of men included within that specific unit. For John to write "two myriads of myriads" would be no different than a Roman general announcing he would send "two legions of legions" into battle.

Let's put this in modern-day vernacular. Suppose I went to Krispy Kreme donuts and told the salesperson at the counter, "I would like to get two dozen of a box of a dozen donuts, please." (That would be "two dozen of a dozen donuts".) Hopefully, the salesperson ringing up my order will not mistakenly multiply the two dozens I asked for by yet another dozen and hand me a collection of 288 donuts total (2 X 12 X 12). With any sense, they will give me the 24 donuts I requested. Same thing here with the "two myriads of myriads" of horsemen.

 

[DavidPT]

I find it strange that no one is paying any attention at all to the very precise matching chronology of the Idumean attack on Jerusalem after the AD 66 war had begun, as compared to the Revelation 9-11 account of the sixth trumpet judgment, which included these 20,000 horsemen. These matching chronologies are not going away. What are the odds that this extensive series of historical events recorded in Josephus is such a close match for the predicted events listed in Revelation 9-11 for the sixth trumpet judgment? Far too many connections to be merely coincidental.

I find it strange that you are not paying attention to the posts I made that debunk what you are proposing. thousand thousand has to be multiplied not added. It's that simple. Then we have to multiply that by 2, meaning in Revelation 9.

10,000 times 10,000 = 100 million. 100 million times 2 equals 200 million.

200 million makes zero sense in the first century. It makes good sense in the 21st century since China would be from the east, and that they have enough ppl in that region to force enlistment where their armies could grow 100 times in size in no time. Or we could maybe assume demons or something, but why would demons be coming from the east, though?

Let's put this in modern-day vernacular. Suppose I went to Krispy Kreme donuts and told the salesperson at the counter, "I would like to get two dozen of a box of a dozen donuts, please." (That would be "two dozen of a dozen donuts".)

If a box of donuts consists of 12 donuts, and that if you wanted 2 dozen of these, that would mean you are requesting 24 boxes of donuts. That would be 288 donuts in total. If you were only wanting 2 dozen donuts you would be requesting 2 boxes, not 2 dozen boxes.

What if you were ordering these donuts for 100 or more ppl that you work with? Would it be unreasonable to order 288 donuts? Would it be reasonable to order 24 donuts?

 

[3 Resurrections]

I find it strange that you are not paying attention to the posts I made that debunk what you are proposing. thousand thousand has to be multiplied not added. It's that simple

I'm sorry, DavidPT, it's not that simple. Your method of multiplication is not the way Psalms 68:17 interprets this kind of language. At least the KJV translators recognized that when they correctly translated "two myriads of thousands" as being "twenty thousand" total. They did not multiply 2 X 10,00 X multiple 1,000's, but merely multiplied 2 X 10,000 to arrive at the "twenty thousand" chariots of God in that text. It's the same with the "two myriads of myriads" in Revelation 9:16. Just as in Psalms 68:17, we are not to multiply the total of 20,000 by the extra 10,000.

200 million makes zero sense in the first century. It makes good sense in the 21st century since China would be from the east, and that they have enough ppl in that region to force enlistment where their armies could grow 100 times in size in no time. Or we could maybe assume demons or something, but why would demons be coming from the east, though?

I realize this is the usual nation which people revert to when attempting to find a country which might have these vast numbers of horsemen. But there is also a problem with the interpretation that these horsemen must come from a country that is based in the East - like China. That isn't exactly the way the Greek reads. Read Revelation 16:12 carefully in various translations, and it shows that it is not a nation of the east from which the "kings" originate, but that the "kings'" attack on their target would focus on the eastern side of that targeted location.

This is what happened with the 20,000 Idumean horsemen coming to the eastern entry gate of Jerusalem, where they demanded admittance. Ananus, the leader of the moderate faction, refused to let them enter that eastern gate into the city.

The mention of the Euphrates River in Revelation 9:14 and Revelation 16:12 is very much a symbolic one. It was meant to duplicate the one-night take-down of the Babylonian empire, when Cyrus "dried up" the Euphrates River that night by diverting the Euphrates River into channels. This lowered the river's water level enough so that he and his army could sneak under the Euphrates River's submerged water gates into the city, and take down Belshazzar's Babylonian empire in a single night.

Since Jerusalem in Revelation is symbolically called "Babylon the Great", then the Euphrates River gate entrance into the ancient city of Babylon would symbolize the main entrance gates of Jerusalem / "Babylon the Great" in this first century time period. The 20,000 Idumeans with their 4 commanders were symbolically "bound at the great River Euphrates" by Ananus forbidding them entrance by locking the eastern entry gates of Jerusalem against them.

Under cover of that nighttime storm and earthquake, the plotting Zealots snuck out of the Temple and sawed the bars of the eastern gates open, which released the Idumeans into the city for their attack on Ananus and his moderate followers. This was a copy of Cyrus's army breaking into the ancient city of Babylon via the Euphrates River gates entrance. God had promised long before Cyrus was every born that He would "loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates, and the gates shall not be shut; I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:..." (Isaiah 45:1-2).

Far, far in advance, God had prophesied Cyrus's actions in taking down the drunken Belshazzar and the Babylonian empire in a single night. God had also prepared long before the exact year, month, day and the hour for the army of 20,000 Idumeans to replicate this attack on Jerusalem / "Babylon the Great". The Idumeans' one-night destruction of the last limiting constraint on the Zealot's rebellion was accomplished by the death of the two moderate high priest witnesses, Ananus and Joshua. After that, chaos reigned supreme in Jerusalem, with the Zealot factions allowed to freely victimize the inhabitants of the city.

 

[Blade]

Hi no.. it is 200 million. This is from the original greek. Just looking at other translations thats 21 .. I doubt all of them are wrong.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Hi no.. it is 200 million. This is from the original greek.

From what I'm reading, apparently there was no such conceivable number as a million in ancient Greek numerology. The highest number in the ancient Greek system was the 10,000 number (a myriad). That is as high as the ancient world computations went. This is why even GOD'S ultimate battle strength in Psalms 68:17 went no higher than twice that highest number of 10,000 - namely the "twenty thousand" chariots of God. Those translating this Revelation 9:16 verse with its "two myriads of myriads" as 200 million horsemen are accidentally exaggerating the actual specific number that John gave.

When we have a detailed account in Josephus' historical record naming 4 leaders of the 20,000 Idumeans and their attack on Jerusalem, which matches the chronology found in Revelation 9:13 through Revelation 11:13, it behooves us to reconsider the typical interpretation of this number described in Greek as "two myriads of myriads".

As I said above, the number of "the third part of men" that these horsemen slew amounted to a total of 7,002 during this sixth trumpet judgment that ended in Revelation 11:13. It is patently ridiculous to think that it would take as many as 28,563 horsemen just to kill one single person (the supposed 200 million divided by the 7,002 people whom they slew). The more reasonable ratio is the 20,000 who killed the 7,002 - a ratio of 3 to 1 instead of the totally improbable 200 million versus the 7,002.

 

[DavidPT]

When we have a detailed account in Josephus' historical record naming 4 leaders of the 20,000 Idumeans and their attack on Jerusalem, which matches the chronology found in Revelation 9:13 through Revelation 11:13, it behooves us to reconsider the typical interpretation of this number described in Greek as "two myriads of myriads".

In the event some of us are wrong about some of these things, though I doubt we are, but let's still assume we could be, I wish you at least had a better argument that wasn't contradicting what you are currently proposing here. It is unconvincing, unfortunately.

Like I have already pointed out, you still need to multiply the sum of a thousand thousand by 2, which you are still not doing since it obviously destroys your theory to do so. It would mean in your case, it adds up to 40,000 not 20,000. Even 40,000 doesn't fit 20,000 Idumeans, it contradicts it.


Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.


This is how the KJV translates it. You would have us believe that the Greek word 'duo' is not recorded in this verse, and that it should instead be translated as---And the number of the army of the horsemen were thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them?

Had the text said that instead, and then assuming it is correct to add thousand thousand, only then could you achieve the 20,000 needed to support your theory.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is how the KJV translates it. You would have us believe that the Greek word 'duo' is not recorded in this verse, and that it should instead be translated as---And the number of the army of the horsemen were thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them?

No, DavidPT, that wasn't what I wrote. I'm not ignoring the word "duo". The word "myriad" has a numerical value of ten thousand. So, two times the number of "ten thousand" (which is the Greek "two myriads of myriads") is a total of twenty thousand altogether. In the ancient Greek world, the largest numerical unit topped out at ten thousand - a "myriad" - which was adequate for the needs of the time. They did not calculate amounts in units of a million, let alone 200 million. Ten thousand - a "myriad" - was absolutely the highest numerical unit that anyone could imagine needing to use for human calculations. So, when Psalms 68:17 described the superior level of God's power in battle - the "twenty thousand" chariots of God which accompanied Him - this was twice the level of power on a human scale, as was fitting for Deity's superiority.

John's reference in Revelation 9:16 to the "two myriads of myriads" was meant to reflect this ancient Psalms 68:17 description of God's battle strength (the "two myriads of thousands" that were the chariots of God, which the KJV translates as "twenty thousand" total.) Revelation's twenty thousand horsemen were going to do battle with GOD'S superior, doubled level of power backing up their enterprise. God's authorization was behind their actions, because He had prepared them for this specific point in time: the exact year, month, day, and even the very hour of their attack.