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Twenty Theses Toward a Bible-Centered Political Philosophy

ArnautDaniel

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Well, let's suppose that the word "beget" does just provide some sort of name, label, or shorthand for the concept "Jesus is preeminent, and His life and teachings tell us what God is like." What's the problem? We have a concept, which, by the way, is intelligible to us; the biblical author John has given us the term "beget" to express that concept. True, he could've used another term to express the concept in question, but he didn't. But whether or not he could've done so is irrelevant, because we can still find ways to express the concept. Showing that John "commandeered" a term which meant something else in another context in order to express, in quick fashion (and yes, I'll add, with a hint of the poetic), the concept he was seeking to express, by no means undermines the concept itself.

Well, as I'm sure you guessed, as I was only using "beget" as a convenient example, I would now bring the same sort of argument against these other terms.

It still hasn't been established that any clear meaing can be ascertained.

Going back to one of the examples I used earlier: "Capital" is used in economics to refer to, in short, a business's resources. Let us, for the sake of argument, assume that prior to its being used in that sense it was used only to express the highest or most prominent form of something (capital punishment, capital city, etc.). For an economic theorist to come along and decide, "I think the best short-hand for the concept I'm trying to express is 'capital'" is perfectly legitimate. He could've chosen another term, too, but he didn't, so the best thing to do is to stick to using his chosen terminology, and when we come across the word "capital" in his economic writings, interpret it the way he wants it interpreted, regardless of what it might mean elsewhere. Now, one could criticize his chosen term, but that doesn't do anything to undermine the concept he's trying to express.

Yes, but in this case the person can ultimately point to material assets or contracts. I can be given an example of capital. I can also be presented with a new person and determine whether they have "capital" and how much.

In short there is a rule I can apply to new situations and see if there is "capital".

There is no such rule or ability to check alternative things in the theological/metaphysical case.

To return to "begotten", how could I determine if say my dog and my cat enjoyed a relationship of "begetting"?

To be a useful term, you would have to define "begetting" independently of reference to persons of the trinity, and then show that in fact when applied to persons of the trinity it appears to be true.

But you have yet to define "beget" without any reference to Jesus or the Father so that it could conceivably be applied elsehwere.

Tell me why it's legitimate to do that in, say, the economic context, but not in a theological context. To me, your distinction is arbitrary, and stems from some sort of prior belief to the effect that there aren't any theological concepts at all. (Now, I'm guessing that last is what you believe, based on some of the stuff you've written already. If I'm wrong, please let me know what your actual theological views are.)

Just tell me what the rule/definition is, and we can apply it in a whole variety of situations and see whether it is true or false.

If it happens to apply in only one case that is fine. But if it is defined so as to apply in only one case...well that makes it nothing more than a name with no other meaning.
 
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clmyers

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Well, as I'm sure you guessed, as I was only using "beget" as a convenient example, I would now bring the same sort of argument against these other terms.

It still hasn't been established that any clear meaing can be ascertained.



Yes, but in this case the person can ultimately point to material assets or contracts. I can be given an example of capital. I can also be presented with a new person and determine whether they have "capital" and how much.

In short there is a rule I can apply to new situations and see if there is "capital".

There is no such rule or ability to check alternative things in the theological/metaphysical case.

To return to "begotten", how could I determine if say my dog and my cat enjoyed a relationship of "begetting"?

To be a useful term, you would have to define "begetting" independently of reference to persons of the trinity, and then show that in fact when applied to persons of the trinity it appears to be true.

But you have yet to define "beget" without any reference to Jesus or the Father so that it could conceivably be applied elsehwere.



Just tell me what the rule/definition is, and we can apply it in a whole variety of situations and see whether it is true or false.

If it happens to apply in only one case that is fine. But if it is defined so as to apply in only one case...well that makes it nothing more than a name with no other meaning.

OK, I think we're now coming to the root of our disagreement. Now, before I post a detailed response, tell me this: It seems, from what you've said so far, that your criterion for determining the "meaningfulness" of a statement is whether or not it is empirically verifiable. Am I correct in inferring that?

By the way, I just have to say that you're an excellent sparring partner, and I find this discussion to be very enjoyable.

--Chris
 
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ArnautDaniel

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OK, I think we're now coming to the root of our disagreement. Now, before I post a detailed response, tell me this: It seems, from what you've said so far, that your criterion for determining the "meaningfulness" of a statement is whether or not it is empirically verifiable. Am I correct in inferring that?

No, I allowed for non-empirically verifiable statements to not be worthless above.

I mean I did allow for poetic usage, which, like music, operates on our feelings, and are intended to provoke a response on that level. So I think poetry is "meaningful" in the same way as a piece of music is.

But I do think propositions intended to do more than play on the emotions should be empirically verifiable either directly or through reasonable consequences. So maybe you can't verify "1+1=2", but you can verify "one apple and one apple make two apples".

There are also all sorts of ordinary everyday interactions where communication takes place, and maybe the only verification is that with the same sorts of phrases people respond in the same way, or something along those lines.

But I think any proposition which purports to make a simple factual and descriptive statement about things should be empirically verifiable.

So, since "the Son is begotten by the Father" would appear to be intended as a factual and descriptive statement, then I would expect to be told how to verify it. If it is just poetic metaphor, then that is entirely different.
 
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clmyers

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No, I allowed for non-empirically verifiable statements to not be worthless above.

I mean I did allow for poetic usage, which, like music, operates on our feelings, and are intended to provoke a response on that level. So I think poetry is "meaningful" in the same way as a piece of music is.

But I do think propositions intended to do more than play on the emotions should be empirically verifiable either directly or through reasonable consequences. So maybe you can't verify "1+1=2", but you can verify "one apple and one apple make two apples".

There are also all sorts of ordinary everyday interactions where communication takes place, and maybe the only verification is that with the same sorts of phrases people respond in the same way, or something along those lines.

But I think any proposition which purports to make a simple factual and descriptive statement about things should be empirically verifiable.

So, since "the Son is begotten by the Father" would appear to be intended as a factual and descriptive statement, then I would expect to be told how to verify it. If it is just poetic metaphor, then that is entirely different.

OK, I have a couple of further questions:

First, could you give me an example of a statement that would fit your definition of a "non-empirically verifiable" statement that is also not worthless/meaningless?

Second, are you saying that poetic metaphors cannot express any truth beyond the emotional level? To stick to your example of "beget," are you saying that, if "beget" is a poetic metaphor, it cannot express, through figurative language, an actual fact or state of affairs? Are you saying it's necessarily as nonsensical as, for example: "Twas brillig and the slithy toves / Did gyre and gimble in the wabe..."?

Third, what for you would constitute "empirical verifiability" of a statement like, "Jesus tells us what God is like"? (That's partially what I think "beget" means, if you remember.) If we suppose, for the sake of argument, the historical reliability of the New Testament, would you be willing to accept that as evidence that that statement has been empirically verified? After all, one of the claims the NT makes about itself is that it contains an accurate account of Jesus' revelation of the nature and attributes of God.

Last, you said, "I think any proposition which purports to make a simple factual and descriptive statement about things should be empirically verifiable." Why do you think that? On what are you basing your belief in this instance?

My position, just to reiterate, is that "beget" could very well be a poetic metaphor, but it is also expressing an actual fact or state of affairs. So, said another way, I don't think that the concept being expressed in this way by John is merely emotive.

--Chris
 
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ArnautDaniel

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OK, I have a couple of further questions:

First, could you give me an example of a statement that would fit your definition of a "non-empirically verifiable" statement that is also not worthless/meaningless?

To be or not to be – that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,

Or to take arms against a sea of troubles

And, by opposing, end them. To die, to sleep⎯

No more – and by a sleep to say we end

The heartache and the thousand natural shocks

That flesh is heir to – ‘tis a consummation

Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep⎯
To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub,

For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Must give us pause. There's the respect

That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th’ oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns

That patient merit of th’ unworthy takes,

When he himself might his quietus make

With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,

To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,

The undiscovered country from whose bourn

No traveler returns, puzzles the will

And makes us rather bear those ills we have

Than fly to others that we know not of?

Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution

Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,

And enterprises of great pitch and moment

With this regard their currents turn awry,

And lose the name of action.—Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered.

Second, are you saying that poetic metaphors cannot express any truth beyond the emotional level? To stick to your example of "beget," are you saying that, if "beget" is a poetic metaphor, it cannot express, through figurative language, an actual fact or state of affairs? Are you saying it's necessarily as nonsensical as, for example: "Twas brillig and the slithy toves / Did gyre and gimble in the wabe..."?

If it were meaningful and you knew it you would be able to provide an account of that meaning, rather than some heartfelt assertion. You haven't so I have no reason to grant that it is meaningful.

Third, what for you would constitute "empirical verifiability" of a statement like, "Jesus tells us what God is like"? (That's partially what I think "beget" means, if you remember.) If we suppose, for the sake of argument, the historical reliability of the New Testament, would you be willing to accept that as evidence that that statement has been empirically verified? After all, one of the claims the NT makes about itself is that it contains an accurate account of Jesus' revelation of the nature and attributes of God.

Let's suppose (for the sake of argument) that we can establish the validity of the NT. So (in whatever magical manner) the text gives what happened and what people said.

None of that says that what they said was correct or true. So it is entirely possible that all of Jesus' words were recorded, but he was flat out wrong in what he said.

Maybe he did rise from the dead, but everything he said was totally wrong.

Proving the veracity of the text as a historical document doesn't prove the veracity of the people the document describes.

Establishing the reliability of the text doesn't establish what you want it to.

Last, you said, "I think any proposition which purports to make a simple factual and descriptive statement about things should be empirically verifiable." Why do you think that? On what are you basing your belief in this instance?

I can't imagine another way to construct a meaning for the proposition. There might be one, but I haven't come across it.

My position, just to reiterate, is that "beget" could very well be a poetic metaphor, but it is also expressing an actual fact or state of affairs. So, said another way, I don't think that the concept being expressed in this way by John is merely emotive.

You could, but you would have to provide an account of how it can be established to be meaningful.

In my opinion it is useless to simply assert that you think it is meaningful without providing an account.

Now it might be possible to provide an account, but you just don't know how to do it. So it might be that we would all agree it was meaningful once that account is presented. However, absent that account, it doesn't make any sense to claim that the proposition is meaningful. Now, I've tried to be careful not to say that it is thus "meaningless", but rather to say that it doesn't have meaning in as much as we haven't provided an account of how to get meaning out of it.
 
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clmyers

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Well, I’ll agree with you in this: I can’t think of a way that I can empirically verify the biblical teaching regarding “beget.” That is, I can’t think of a way to empirically demonstrate that Jesus in fact reveals the nature and attributes of God. I believe (and this is a separate discussion, I suppose) that the New Testament claims as much, and furthermore that it claims to be an accurate historical record of everything of which it speaks. Now, that last (the historical reliability of the NT) isn’t just a bald assertion; I believe that close historical examination will lead us to that conclusion. Now, of course, you’re also right that the NT could be reliable as an historical document, but still err in its theological claims. I don’t know of any single “killer argument” that will establish beyond doubt Christianity’s claims. Rather, I think it’s all cumulative and, ultimately, a matter of probability. In other words, I liken it to a courtroom scenario: There may be no single piece of evidence that proves the guilt or innocence of the accused, but when we piece together multiple lines of evidence, we can arrive at a verdict that we regard as more probable than all other alternatives.

Now, all of that being said, I still see one problem with your requirement that a statement which is intended to express a fact or describe reality in some way (and on more than the emotive level) be empirically verifiable: How can you provide empirical verification of such a requirement?
 
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ArnautDaniel

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Now, all of that being said, I still see one problem with your requirement that a statement which is intended to express a fact or describe reality in some way (and on more than the emotive level) be empirically verifiable: How can you provide empirical verification of such a requirement?

Why would I need to?

I'm just giving an overly-technical version of something along the lines:

"If a proposition means something you should be able to explain what it means"

That is if you say:

"The sky is blue"

And I say:

"What do you mean...the sky is blue?"

Then you explain what you are talking about.

Most language is rather abbreviated, and we take a more detailed (and tedious) explanation to lurk behind everything.

Essentially, when we communicate we assume we can take some tedious detail for granted, but we also assume that someone who asserts something can explain more if prompted.

So if I ask "What do you mean...the sky is blue?" you can point at the sky, and say "that...the sky", and then you can point at a couple of things that happen to blue and say "...is the same color as those things", and I'll say "oh...okay".

I'm not seeing how you can elaborate "beget" in a similar fashion.

And I say this for a very simple reason. The elaboration above required appeal to a number of situations, but "beget" in the case given is unique. You have nothing to compare it to.

I mean, what else could it possibly mean for a proposition to mean something?
 
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clmyers

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Why would I need to?

I'm just giving an overly-technical version of something along the lines:

"If a proposition means something you should be able to explain what it means"

That is if you say:

"The sky is blue"

And I say:

"What do you mean...the sky is blue?"

Then you explain what you are talking about.

Most language is rather abbreviated, and we take a more detailed (and tedious) explanation to lurk behind everything.

Essentially, when we communicate we assume we can take some tedious detail for granted, but we also assume that someone who asserts something can explain more if prompted.

So if I ask "What do you mean...the sky is blue?" you can point at the sky, and say "that...the sky", and then you can point at a couple of things that happen to blue and say "...is the same color as those things", and I'll say "oh...okay".

I'm not seeing how you can elaborate "beget" in a similar fashion.

And I say this for a very simple reason. The elaboration above required appeal to a number of situations, but "beget" in the case given is unique. You have nothing to compare it to.

I mean, what else could it possibly mean for a proposition to mean something?

Well then, if by "compare" you mean "point to two things/concepts and describe their similarities," that can be done with the theological term "beget." We have to remember that a great deal of theological language is used analogically, which just means that theological terminology is similar to, though not exactly like, things and concepts that we know and that we experience. So, to return again to "beget," if we allow for the analogical use of language, we can say, "Do you want to know what the relationship between the first two members of the Trinity is like? It's like the relationship between a father and son." There are important similiarities between a human father and son, and between the first two members of the Godhead, similiarities which would've been especially clear to people living in the culture of first-century Palestine. For example, in that culture, firstborn sons were given the place of prominence and authority, especially over inheritance; likewise, Jesus has the place of prominence and authority over creation. Second, human fathers and sons (usually) love each other; in the same way, we learn that the members of the Trinity actually feel emotions for one another (e.g., love). Third, human sons often reflect the characters of their fathers ("like father, like son"); just as this is the case humanly speaking, Jesus reveals the character of the "invisible God" more fully than ever before. So, it's possible to say, then, in response to the question, "How do the first and second members of the Trinity relate to one another?" to say, "Well, do you see that man and his son? It's a lot like that." Keep in mind, since theological language is very often analogical, this means that there are also big differences, like, according to the Bible, the fact that Jesus is not a created being, whereas human sons are, and like the fact He and the Father never disagree, whereas humans sons and fathers quite often do so. But, in allowing the context to tell us the similarities, we must also allow the context to tell us the differences.

Now, I still don't have a way to empirically verify all of that. I mean, I can't take you to God and say, "Prove to him that this is really the way it is," or anything like that. I can point you to a collection of documents (the NT) which claims to be a divine revelation (or testimony, if you prefer that term) of such things, and then urge you to accept its testimony on the grounds that a.) it's internally consistent and b.) it's historically reliable. But that's all I can really do. Does that remove every possible doubt? Probably not. But it does mean that the acceptance of Christianity's truth claims is not unreasonable, as a great many objectors would claim. In fact, I would say Christianity is the most reasonable worldview, and the objections brought against that I'm aware of are ultimately unreasonable, so I have no problem accepting it.
 
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ArnautDaniel

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Well then, if by "compare" you mean "point to two things/concepts and describe their similarities," that can be done with the theological term "beget." We have to remember that a great deal of theological language is used analogically, which just means that theological terminology is similar to, though not exactly like, things and concepts that we know and that we experience. So, to return again to "beget," if we allow for the analogical use of language, we can say, "Do you want to know what the relationship between the first two members of the Trinity is like? It's like the relationship between a father and son."

Note the key words here of "like" and "similar to". This is "simile", and is precisely the sort of poetic usage I talked about earlier.

If you are saying "the relationship between the Son and the Father is like the relationship between sons and fathers" you are talking poetry.

There are important similiarities between a human father and son, and between the first two members of the Godhead, similiarities which would've been especially clear to people living in the culture of first-century Palestine. For example, in that culture, firstborn sons were given the place of prominence and authority, especially over inheritance; likewise, Jesus has the place of prominence and authority over creation. Second, human fathers and sons (usually) love each other; in the same way, we learn that the members of the Trinity actually feel emotions for one another (e.g., love). Third, human sons often reflect the characters of their fathers ("like father, like son"); just as this is the case humanly speaking, Jesus reveals the character of the "invisible God" more fully than ever before. So, it's possible to say, then, in response to the question, "How do the first and second members of the Trinity relate to one another?" to say, "Well, do you see that man and his son? It's a lot like that." Keep in mind, since theological language is very often analogical, this means that there are also big differences, like, according to the Bible, the fact that Jesus is not a created being, whereas human sons are, and like the fact He and the Father never disagree, whereas humans sons and fathers quite often do so. But, in allowing the context to tell us the similarities, we must also allow the context to tell us the differences.

All you are doing is saying you aren't using "beget" is a statement of a state of affairs, but only as a poetic usage. In fact, all you are saying is that one should apply the emotions they have when the consider the relationship between human sons and fathers to the relationship between the Son and the Father.

Actually you aren't even saying that, probably. What you are saying is the a person should apply the emotions society tells them the should apply to the human relationship to the divine one, as you wouldn't want some man whose father abused him to apply his feelings about father/son relationships to the divine.

The point is none of this requires that the Father or the Son exist. You could just as well say "Pink unicorns are like warm puppies". I can apply my reaction to warm puppies to these "pink unicorns" without them having to even exist.

Now, I still don't have a way to empirically verify all of that. I mean, I can't take you to God and say, "Prove to him that this is really the way it is," or anything like that. I can point you to a collection of documents (the NT) which claims to be a divine revelation (or testimony, if you prefer that term) of such things, and then urge you to accept its testimony on the grounds that a.) it's internally consistent

Hold on here, you can't establish it is "internally consistent", all you can establish is that there is a reading of it which makes it consistent. There is still the open question as to whether that reading corresponds in the case of each text to what the author intended. It is entirely possible that although you can construct the "internally consistent" reading, that it doesn't correspond to the writer's intent in the various cases.

And merely exhibiting such a reading isn't enough. You'd also have to indicate that it is a relatively "natural" reading.

I'd argue that you could give me any set of texts and I could come up with an "internally consist" reading of the entire set. It might be awkward and reaching in places, but it would be consistent.

and b.) it's historically reliable.

Again, this means a reading of the text that agrees with our present conclusions about history. There is again the question of whether that reading is a correct reading.

But that's all I can really do. Does that remove every possible doubt? Probably not. But it does mean that the acceptance of Christianity's truth claims is not unreasonable, as a great many objectors would claim. In fact, I would say Christianity is the most reasonable worldview, and the objections brought against that I'm aware of are ultimately unreasonable, so I have no problem accepting it.

If you accept Christianity based on its reasonableness, then you are committed to accepting any new religion you come across which is more reasonable.

As I suspect you aren't prepared to do that, your belief on Christianity goes beyond mere issues of reason.

In fact, since I think most of the theological claims of Christianity fall under "poetry" as I stated above, I'd have to argue that it isn't reason as much as an emotional reaction to particular poetic similes and metaphors that forms the basis of the religion.

Theology is a kind of poetry, and the believer likes the way it makes them feel.

...

One other note, which I think is important here, is that I've repeatedly stated a willingness to listen to other accounts of how we know what a statement means and whether it is true.

I never said it was impossible for there to be other accounts, only that I don't happen to know of any.

You have yet to try to develop one. All of what you've said boils down to "we Christians think X is true" without getting at why or how.

I think the fact that you are reduced to asserting that certain statements are true and meaningful without giving an account of why and how one should believe that is telling.
 
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mindlight

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1. Christianity is the only true worldview because it is the only worldview which is not ultimately incoherent. By this I mean: First, that Christianity is the only worldview that is not ultimately self-contradictory and, second, that Christianity is the only worldview which does not ultimately contradict historical and scientific facts.

2. If #1 is true, then it follows that: there is a personal, transcendent God possessed of attributes such as love, goodness, wrath, mercy, justice, grace, sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience, faithfulness, aseity, etc.; that this God has revealed Himself in the Bible; that this God has revealed the true nature of all things (including human nature) in the Bible; that this God has also revealed His moral and ethical standards in the Bible.

3. If #2 is true, then we are constrained to accept and obey what the Bible says in all things; to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to allow the Bible to shape our views of all things, including our own thoughts and practical experiences, rather than vice versa.

4. The Bible tells us that man is fallen into sin, is born innately hostile to God and His laws, and is incapable of doing anything that in God’s sight would be regarded as good, apart from regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

5. The Bible also makes plain that God has “put a check upon” man’s evil through common grace. In other words, God has not allowed mankind to live out the fullest extent of his depravity. Thus, human beings, while inherently wicked and bearing wicked fruit, are capable of works that from a human standpoint appear good or benevolent: philanthropy, kindness, charity, cooperation, etc.


True


6. Given mankind’s wickedness, and despite our ability to cooperate with one another, it is still unwise to invest one individual or small, elite group of individuals with inordinate political power. As C. S. Lewis said, it is not a good idea to give one man “irresponsible power over his fellows.” It follows, then, that political power should be as decentralized and diffused as possible. That is, some form of political democracy would work best. Thus, one function of government is to keep individuals from harming one another.

Disagree here, sometimes you need a strong group to get something done, othertimes so that everyy body else learns from them when they crash and burn. Decentralisation of the sort you are describing can just lead to chaos.

7. To keep a government’s laws from becoming arbitrary and subject to easy manipulation, it is best to codify those laws in some sort of constitution.

The organic British common law approach worked very well until recently. A constitutions worth depends on the character of those who form it.


8. To protect the rights of the minority from the “tyranny of the majority,” and to keep one particular group within the government from obtaining inordinate power, it is best to adopt a federal system allowing for separation of powers and judicial review.
9. Since direct democracy is impractical over large areas and large groups of people, it is best to use a system of republican government.
10. Since government officials may be corrupt, it is best to provide for an orderly system of popular initiative, referendum, and recall at all levels of government.


A distinctively American approach rather than a global one. Also see 6)


11. Since the Bible teaches that the poor and helpless must be cared for, poverty and oppression should be fought through a combination of private charities and domestic programs.

Can never be comprehensively effective as an approach but definitely should be a major part of the approach.
 
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