Trump may be trying the Kissinger move trying to reward them to split them from China. It will not work!

[eclipsenow]

Trump's trying to make a deal - but he's the oldest President America has had - and he's in his last term.
(The oldest! When Trump took office, he was nearly half a year older than Biden was!)
He'll be gone in 4 years. Putin will not.

IF Trump is trying to bribe Putin away from China - a reverse Kissinger - it's a joke!
Putin is laughing all the way to the bank! He's getting the deal of his life - but while Trump think's he's got the best hand - he has no real cards to play.
The moment he lays them down Putin will take them and say thank you - and leave the table with his mate Xi Jinping to go take on the EU.

Here are some of Trump's cards.
He may even evacuate American soldiers from Europe's eastern nations to try and charm Putin so much Putin will 'owe' him.
And we all know how Trump values loyalty.
But Putin will just smile, thank Trump for clearing American troops out, and serving up Ukraine on a silver platter.
Then he will continue Russia's enormous sales of oil and gas to China, and enormous imports of Chinese tech and equipment.
Putin was a spy. He knows how to act! He just has to flatter Trump for 4 years - and he will have extended his empire that little bit more.
And there will be nothing Walz can do about it in his Presidency! (Just joking - I don't know the future - but I like Walz.)

But the moment Trump realises he has been played, and the world is laughing at him, and he's an old man with nothing to lose - that could be the most dangerous moment since the Cuban Missile Crisis! (Remember what dozens of psychiatrists have diagnosed him as having!)

 

[Laodicean60]

Trump's trying to make a deal - but he's the oldest President America has had - and he's in his last term.
(The oldest! When Trump took office, he was nearly half a year older than Biden was!)
He'll be gone in 4 years. Putin will not.

What does this have to do with the price of rice in China? Tit for Tat about age Trump derangement syndrome is a real disease. It's too bad that Biden's brain showed he was a two-year-old stuttering and needing a retractable dog leash to keep him from running off. IF Trump is trying to bribe Putin away from China - a reverse Kissinger - it's a joke!
Too bad the West forced them together.

He may even evacuate American soldiers from Europe's eastern nations

Those liberal countries don't like Trump just like you don't so why breastfeed them? I hear he wants to move them to Hungary still maintaining a presence to bail the Europeans out if needed.

And we all know how Trump values loyalty.

He might hire Putin for DOGE.

He knows how to act! He just has to flatter Trump for 4 years - and he will have extended his empire that little bit more.
And there will be nothing Walz can do about it in his Presidency!

So you dropped Kamala along with the rest of America and I thought she was the best for the job. Why do you like Waltz? I'm beginning to listen to Fetterman more.

 

[ozso]

Trump's trying to make a deal - but he's the oldest President America has had - and he's in his last term.
(The oldest! When Trump took office, he was nearly half a year older than Biden was!)
He'll be gone in 4 years. Putin will not.

IF Trump is trying to bribe Putin away from China - a reverse Kissinger - it's a joke!
Putin is laughing all the way to the bank! He's getting the deal of his life - but while Trump think's he's got the best hand - he has no real cards to play.
The moment he lays them down Putin will take them and say thank you - and leave the table with his mate Xi Jinping to go take on the EU.

Here are some of Trump's cards.
He may even evacuate American soldiers from Europe's eastern nations to try and charm Putin so much Putin will 'owe' him.
And we all know how Trump values loyalty.
But Putin will just smile, thank Trump for clearing American troops out, and serving up Ukraine on a silver platter.
Then he will continue Russia's enormous sales of oil and gas to China, and enormous imports of Chinese tech and equipment.
Putin was a spy. He knows how to act! He just has to flatter Trump for 4 years - and he will have extended his empire that little bit more.
And there will be nothing Walz can do about it in his Presidency! (Just joking - I don't know the future - but I like Walz.)

But the moment Trump realises he has been played, and the world is laughing at him, and he's an old man with nothing to lose - that could be the most dangerous moment since the Cuban Missile Crisis! (Remember what dozens of psychiatrists have diagnosed him as having!)

Fictional scenario.

 

[eclipsenow]

What does this have to do with the price of rice in China?

Come on - it's only fair.

Tit for Tat about age Trump derangement syndrome is a real disease. It's too bad that Biden's brain showed he was a two-year-old stuttering and needing a retractable dog leash to keep him from running off.

He was exhausted from travel and sick the night of the debate - and it was horrible to watch.
I saw a tired old man debate someone diagnosed-at-a-distance with malignant narcissism - and was sad you guys don't have the Westminster system of government. The parties you elected do polls and strategic analysis - and hold a spill.
Biden would have been replaced.
Trump? Depends how far gone the right are in all as one becoming the far-right aka alt-right.

IF Trump is trying to bribe Putin away from China - a reverse Kissinger - it's a joke!

Agreed.

Too bad the West forced them together.

Not sure how? Americans seem to be buying Trump's crying over tiny trade imbalances and imagined NATO rip offs?

I thought it was the left that had the constitution of a tiny little flake of snow about to melt in the sun?

Those liberal countries don't like Trump just like you don't so why breastfeed them?

What are you referring to? $900 million to NATO?
What about the $190 BILLION the EU buys off America annually in weapons sales?

I hear he wants to move them to Hungary still maintaining a presence to bail the Europeans out if needed.

Why move them at all?

He might hire Putin for DOGE.

In a sense - Putin hired Trump for DOGE, and tariffs, and hating on NATO, and betraying the western democratic club of friends, and shaming Zelenskyy, and embarrassing America... the list just goes on and on.

So you dropped Kamala along with the rest of America and I thought she was the best for the job.

She was. Her party was. But they're not a true Ordo-Liberal party any more - but anything was better than Trump.
But American's are not ready for a woman, let alone a woman Trump branded as ethnically confused. (Talk about KDS - Kamala Derangement Syndrome! I thought America might reject Trump for his behaviour on the campaign trail... but it appears there's a lot more of them "Proud Boys" out there than I thought!)

Why do you like Waltz? I'm beginning to listen to Fetterman more.

It was a joke. I haven't really even followed the Democratic party since.
The whole thing is too awful.
Just watching Trump betray everything America used to stand for - democracy, freedom, liberty - and trying to keep track of it all and what the implications are - it's horrendous!

Just wait till Yalta 2.0!

 

[Hans Blaster]

I offer a challenge to the video to an apparent error in the first 30 seconds: When was Trump every a "staunch" supporter of Ukraine?

 

[Laodicean60]

Not sure how? Americans seem to be buying Trump's crying over tiny trade imbalances and imagined NATO rip offs?

If you consider Billions with some countries.

What are you referring to? $900 million to NATO?
What about the $190 BILLION the EU buys off America annually in weapons sales?

So many of you lump these two together but 190 B goes to corporations for their products and 900 M comes from taxpayer money.

Come on - it's only fair.

No not fair.

He was exhausted from travel and sick the night of the debate - and it was horrible to watch.

I love the excuses we make for our guy. No One here agreed with a Republican about Biden's mentality it was only till the debate when the bubble popped. The funny thing is that Republicans were talking about here in 2022.

Why move them at all?

Maybe he's looking for a friendlier country than Germany but I don't know.

In a sense - Putin hired Trump for DOGE, and tariffs, and hating on NATO, and betraying the western democratic club of friends, and shaming Zelenskyy, and embarrassing America... the list just goes on and on.

Trump's thing with NATO was way before this war.

Talk about KDS - Kamala Derangement Syndrome

I don't think so. Read below and if she runs again you'll still pick Waltz he doesn't have her experience. Again, Why do you like Waltz?

He knows how to act! He just has to flatter Trump for 4 years - and he will have extended his empire that little bit more.
And there will be nothing Walz can do about it in his Presidency!

So you dropped Kamala along with the rest of America and I thought she was the best for the job. Why do you like Waltz? I'm beginning to listen to Fetterman more.

 

[eclipsenow]

If you consider Billions with some countries.

America has given Ukraine something like $65 billion across 3 years to hold the line against Russia.

So many of you lump these two together but 190 B goes to corporations for their products and 900 M comes from taxpayer money.

Huh? I'm confused - it's all military spending - it's all taxpayer money.

But it seems I made one of those late night errors - and have apologised to the forum here. The EU might only buy about $60 bn in recent years - and even less in the years prior to Russia invading Ukraine.

Still - in recent years that's 10 times the investment the EU is making in America's military compared to what America invests in the EU / NATO.

But only Trump created an American culture of whining about NATO - we used to all be in this together to defend against the USSR!

 

[Laodicean60]

The purchases the EU is making are with a contract to the aerospace companies no taxpayer funding to build their planes. If we are giving Air Force planes then yes taxpayer money.

"What about the $190 BILLION the EU buys off America annually in weapons sales?"

 

[eclipsenow]

The purchases the EU is making are with a contract to the aerospace companies

? Where do you think EU military money comes from?
They buy finished American military kit - are you trying to say they go directly to the civilian producers and the US military does not get first dibs, and has no say in the matter? I think you need to double check that.

 

[Laodicean60]

? Where do you think EU military money comes from?

EU should get funding from its taxpayers, but this is irrelevant.

They buy finished American military kit

Have you heard of direct commercial sales (DCS) or foreign military sales (FMS)? Neither of these is US taxpayer-funded.

are you trying to say they go directly to the civilian producers

Yes

I think you need to double check that.

Please do.

 

[Pommer]

I offer a challenge to the video to an apparent error in the first 30 seconds: When was Trump every a "staunch" supporter of Ukraine?

If “staunch”= we get 50% of the profits from Ukrainian natural resources, very staunch, daresay the staunchest?

 

[eclipsenow]

EU should get funding from its taxpayers, but this is irrelevant.

My general point is that across the decades - American Presidents have discouraged the formation of an EU army because they KNEW that despite America pouring money into NATO each year and the cost of American bases being maintained across Europe, keeping them depending on their 'big brother' for military kit paid far, far more! Whether it's purchased in government to government or government to civilian defence contractor is irrelevant to that basic claim - America gets far more out of this deal financially than it puts in.

But that was never the point anyway! I only raise that because Trumpism frames America as losing out in all these deals - when often the facts on the ground are that America is winning several times over!

However, I've not heard of foreign governments just rocking up to American civilian defence suppliers and buying whatever they want. Maybe that's the case for some categories -but not the big stuff. F35's are strictly govt to govt.

Czeh Defence Ministry confirms F-35 fighter jet procurement remains on schedule - Defence Industry Europe

The Czech Ministry of Defence has reaffirmed its commitment to acquiring F-35 fighter jets from the United States, stating that the procurement process is progressing as planned.

defence-industry.eu

The main point?

Trump whined and whined about Europe not pulling it's weight with NATO - and there's a lot more Europe could have done - but in the last year Europe bought at least 10 TIMES more from American military weapons platforms than America spent on NATO. 10 TIMES more! At the very least. That was always part of the deal. The message was "We'll protect you - but whatever you do - don't develop your own EU army!"

 

[Laodicean60]

My general point is that across the decades - American Presidents have discouraged the formation of an EU army because they KNEW that despite America pouring money into NATO each year and the cost of American bases being maintained across Europe, keeping them depending on their 'big brother' for military kit paid far, far more!

This seems like a new subject. I don't care what NATO has to spend on their protection; this taxpayer is done supporting the wars.

Whether it's purchased in government to government or government to civilian defence contractor is irrelevant to that basic claim - America gets far more out of this deal financially than it puts in.

Not all taxpayers reap the benefits of war mongering. I'm one of them.

The main point?

Trump whined and whined about Europe not pulling it's weight with NATO - and there's a lot more Europe could have done - but in the last year Europe bought at least 10 TIMES more from American military weapons platforms than America spent on NATO. 10 TIMES more! At the very least. That was always part of the deal. The message was "We'll protect you - but whatever you do - don't develop your own EU army!"

So, this administration wants the war over. "We'll protect you, but whatever you do, don't develop your own EU army!" Where is the source for this comment? If Zelensky continues, the spending will be 95% more.

Why do so many foreigners whine about my tax dollars and where they should be spent.

 

[eclipsenow]

This seems like a new subject. I don't care what NATO has to spend on their protection; this taxpayer is done supporting the wars.

Not all taxpayers reap the benefits of war mongering. I'm one of them.

So, this administration wants the war over. "We'll protect you, but whatever you do, don't develop your own EU army!" Where is the source for this comment? If Zelensky continues, the spending will be 95% more.

Why do so many foreigners whine about my tax dollars and where they should be spent.

Dude - the government taxes all these sales to the EU. You're not subsidising anymore. They're subsidising you. Also - 80 years of major power peace helped America. Being the world's currency of choice helped America. All that could go away soon under this man - and you are tired of backing NATO? it's a pittance compared to the global and American benefits.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

The whole who to support thing in the war started by Ukranian Nazi's preparing to invade their peaceful neighbor with the support of NATO and the globalists elites can be settled easily by just looking at who rules their countries. Do we support a failed corrupt country leather by a Jewish comedian who played a president of TV or do we support a global superpower that has a long history of providing stability to Eastern Europe lead by a devout Christian who has won fights with brown bears and is friends with Steven Segal.

I am not biased in any way so it doesn't matter to me.

 

[eclipsenow]

You hear yourself right? The "Nazis" led by a Jewish man were going to invade Russia?

I mean - have you been following this area of the world?

There may have been a few far right elements in a few platoons down in that region - driven to extremism by the constant civil disturbance that has been sponsored by Putin for well over a decade. One the one hand, yes, things get complicated when a strong-man government like the USSR or former Yugoslavia or even Saddam Hussein's Iraq collapse - and then the local rival ethnic tensions and grudges can resurface until a new equilibrium is reached.

On the other hand - Putin.

But Nazi's INVADE Russia, led by a Jew?

You're not biased in any way so it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Laodicean60]

Dude - the government taxes all these sales to the EU. You're not subsidising anymore. They're subsidising you.

Yes, Boeing et al. does pay taxes at our corporate tax rate minus loopholes, which is far from the government receiving $190 billion. A lot of this goes to the companies.

Being the world's currency of choice helped America.

Yes, and it's hurting America with BRICS nations. We bully countries with the dollar, and the high price of the dollar makes it doubly hard on developing countries.

But Nazi's INVADE Russia, led by a Jew?

No but but coecidentally Nazi Germany invaded Kursk and fail and seems Ukraine did the same.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes, Boeing et al. does pay taxes at our corporate tax rate minus loopholes, which is far from the government receiving $190 billion. A lot of this goes to the companies.

I apologised publicly about the $190 bn figure - but the point remains - even with the much lower figure.

America spent only $567 million on NATO in 2023.
https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/us-contributes-16-nato-annual-budget-not-two-thirds-2024-05-31/

Part of the deal as understood and promoted by all previous Presidents before Trump was that the EU did NOT need to harmonise and form their own European Army. Why not, because it’s a great idea? Rather than 178 chaotic, different, bespoke weapons platforms from 27 different national commands - they could have one EU command streamlining and mass producing just 30 co-ordinated weapons platforms as America does. It would make them vastly more cost effective - giving them vastly more ‘bang for their buck.’ It would make them more formidable - and NATO even more formidable with America and Europe acting as one!

Question: So why would previous American President’s discourage this?
Answer: Good old fashioned self-interest. Jobs at home!

The EU has recently been spending about €90 bn on military hardware.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/defence-numbers/
63% of this is spent in America.
EU buys too much defense equipment abroad, especially from US: Report
That’s €56 bn or converted to USD $60 billion.
See the difference? Million vs billion?

Let’s spell it out.
America’s income from this deal = $60,000 million.
America’s annual NATO cost? = $ 567 million.

That means you get 105 times more return than investment!

Happy now? Going to drop the silly charade that America's been ripped off this whole time?

LET ALONE the fact that NONE of this was about money - but about our common security and ability to even HAVE economies!

Trump has undermined the Budapest Memorandum AND NATO and made the western world look weak and fumbling - provoking both nuclear proliferation and possibly accelerating aggression from Russia and China.

 

[The Liturgist]

Trump's trying to make a deal - but he's the oldest President America has had - and he's in his last term.
(The oldest! When Trump took office, he was nearly half a year older than Biden was!)
He'll be gone in 4 years. Putin will not.

That’s an ageist sentiment which ignores the fact that US government policy often spans multiple presidential administrations, even when the party holding the office changes. Indeed, the radical reversals in policy implemented by the Biden administration and their re-reversal are unprecedented.

And whether or not it will work or not, we should try to do what Kissinger did, since the alternative approach of allowing conditions to persist which encourage an alliance between the Chinese Communists and Russia would be contrary to our national interests and would increase the risk of Finlandization of South Korea and a Communist military assault on the Republic of China.

Indeed, whereas adding Ukraine to NATO would be extremely perilous, the US can maintain the status quo of supplying extensive military defenses to Taiwan. It is changes in the status quo which risk nuclear war. For the time being, China’s nuclear forces still appear lag behind those of the US and Russia, but this is not a condition I expect to continue.

 

[eclipsenow]

That’s an ageist sentiment

Really? I'm not allowed to post that after what the Republicans said 20,000 times a day about Biden.
Wow. Inconsistent much?

which ignores the fact that US government policy often spans multiple presidential administrations, even when the party holding the office changes. Indeed, the radical reversals in policy implemented by the Biden administration and their re-reversal are unprecedented.

They sure are. Biden is right of Australia's right wing, and no one in America seems to be talking about nationalising healthcare to save $1 TRILLION a year or more while guaranteeing universal coverage.
Yet the Overton Window has moved so far to the right that Trump's new normal is sort of 'ho-hum' to citizens who have not really read about the history of this stuff, but those who know can see huge policy reversals between Biden and Trump.
So if Biden is too right wing for our right, imagine what Aussies make of Trump and his betrayal of western civilisation?

And whether or not it will work or not, we should try to do what Kissinger did,

OH - just like that we're snuggling up to Putin and betraying the Budapest Memorandum - forever tarnishing America as a Judas? How much more do you want to confirm what David Brooks said about the rest of the world never trusting America again - even after Trump - because Americans themselves elected that Trump? LIKED and VALUED his betrayal of the west!?


OK - once again!

President Trump does not seem to notice or care that if you betray people, or jerk them around, they will revile you. Over the last few weeks, the Europeans have gone from shock to bewilderment to revulsion. This period was for them what 9/11 was for us — the stripping away of illusions, the exposure of an existential threat. The Europeans have realized that America, the nation they thought was their friend, is actually a rogue superpower.​

since the alternative approach of allowing conditions to persist which encourage an alliance between the Chinese Communists and Russia

Talk about trying to close the barn door after the horse has bolted - or in this case coming up with plans to ruin the engagement party and sabotage the relationship - except the 'couple' are already a decade the other side of their wedding and honeymoon!
What are you talking about?
This deal is done!
Russia and China and Iran have annual military exercises together. Russia only has 2 real sectors in the economy right now, energy and arms. They sell their energy to China, and buy in almost everything else. The 2 are wedded to each other militarily and economically.
You pretending Trump is some kind of genius by snuggling up to Putin is not even naïve... but I don't think I'll unpack what it is... because of forum rules!

would be contrary to our national interests and would increase the risk of Finlandization of South Korea and a Communist military assault on the Republic of China.

Wrong again! TRUMP has already ENSURED THAT!

At the fall of the Soviet Union, Ukraine had about a third of their nukes.
In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, the UK, America, and Russia PLEDGED to respect Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity in exchange for Ukraine transferring its nuclear weapons to Russia and joining the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) as a non-nuclear state. PLEDGED! Russia invaded and now Trump is cheering them on!
What nation is ever going to trust the US again after that betrayal? The message is loud and clear. Keep your nukes - or get your own! Trump may have just triggered the largest proliferation humanity will ever seen - until "Oh oh - Armageddon by accident" finally gets us.
And Trump was so ignorant about all this HE had the gall to tell Zelensky - "You're gambling with WW3!"

Indeed, whereas adding Ukraine to NATO would be extremely perilous,

Do you know how many analysts have predicted would have happened if the west had fully funded Ukraine?
Our economies are so much bigger than Ukraine's that eventually we would have worn Russia down. There are forces in Russia that would eventually have rejected Putinism and moved on him - probably leaving Russia more moderate.

If ONLY Trumpism had hit in a less vulnerable time - and the only country Trump would have REALLY hurt was America!

the US can maintain the status quo of supplying extensive military defenses to Taiwan.

Are you SURE about that?

How long before the whining starts about the cost of that?

It is changes in the status quo which risk nuclear war.

Oh come on! Putin does NOT want to reduce Russia to a radioactive glassed over parking lot!
Sure - there is sabre rattling.

But if we had supplied Ukraine - and not put boots on the ground - we might have burned through Russia's other leadership structures to support Putinism.