Thoughts on God's sovereignty, omniscience and the laws of physics.

[Rescued One]

Dodging the question. . .

Do you see Jesus as harsh in Mk 9:42-48?

But you weren't asking ME a question.

 

[Clare73]

But you weren't asking ME a question.

Dodging the question. . .

Do you see Jesus as harsh in Mk 9:42-48?

 

[Rescued One]

Dodging the question. . .

Do you see Jesus as harsh in Mk 9:42-48?

Why are you asking me? You and I aren't God. I apologize if I offended you.

 

[Rescued One]

Does God's will result in some who are never saved?

 

[KevinT]

Are you a Universalist? Do you think God saves everyone?

For it is appointed unto man once to die but after this the judgment.

No, I don't think God saves everyone.
I just see that the Bible portrays God standing constantly ready to help us, pleading with us to accept His help to avoid destruction from our sinful behavior. When we ignore God, I feel we are not destroyed by the "wrath of God", but rather by the natural consequences of life. Yes, God made all of the universe and thus also is the author of those same natural consequence. But when I fall and skin my knee, I don't think that it hurts because of the "wrath of God." And when someone turns away from God and gets more skinned than just their knees, I likewise don't see this as God actively inflicting "wrath" on them.

So I don't like considering your deceased relatives as recipients of "wrath", and certainly not as "vessels of wrath," as if that is all they were good for.

Best wishes,
Kevin

 

[KevinT]

Does God's will result in some who are never saved?

Did you read the original posts and the early responses? That addresses this same question. I started this thread with a hypothetical wherein a child is killed by a car, and consider if this was God's will. Having someone die without salvation would be a similar situation.
In short, God's "will" has several nuanced aspects to it.

KT

 

[Rescued One]

No, I don't think God saves everyone.
I just see that the Bible portrays God standing constantly ready to help us, pleading with us to accept His help to avoid destruction from our sinful behavior. When we ignore God, I feel we are not destroyed by the "wrath of God", but rather by the natural consequences of life. Yes, God made all of the universe and thus also is the author of those same natural consequence. But when I fall and skin my knee, I don't think that it hurts because of the "wrath of God." And when someone turns away from God and gets more skinned than just their knees, I likewise don't see this as God actively inflicting "wrath" on them.

So I don't like considering your deceased relatives as recipients of "wrath", and certainly not a "vessel of wrath," as if that is all they were good for.

Best wishes,
Kevin

You will note that I was asking a question. I dldn't state emphatically that anyone is a vessel of wrath.

Romans 9

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:


I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
26and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”
29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”
Israel’s Unbelief
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

​

 

[Rescued One]

No, I don't think God saves everyone.
I just see that the Bible portrays God standing constantly ready to help us, pleading with us to accept His help to avoid destruction from our sinful behavior. When we ignore God, I feel we are not destroyed by the "wrath of God", but rather by the natural consequences of life. Yes, God made all of the universe and thus also is the author of those same natural consequence. But when I fall and skin my knee, I don't think that it hurts because of the "wrath of God." And when someone turns away from God and gets more skinned than just their knees, I likewise don't see this as God actively inflicting "wrath" on them.

So I don't like considering your deceased relatives as recipients of "wrath", and certainly not as "vessels of wrath," as if that is all they were good for.

Best wishes,
Kevin

Thanks. Even my living siblings don't believe in God or sin.

 

[Rescued One]

Does mankind have free will? Does this impact God's sovereignty? Does the physical laws we find in the universe give any insight into this? I'd like to explore this here.

A child is struck and killed by a car. Was this in accordance with God's will?

The car struck her because the driver was drunk
The driver was drunk because he had become a slave to alcohol
He was a slave because his parents were not able to teach him avoid the trap of an addicting substance
His parents didn't do a great job because of actions of their parents
A chain of cause and effect can go all the way back to Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve failed when the were tempted by the devil through the serpent, and Satan and cronies have been adding misery all along the way.
Lucifer turned into the evil devil because God made the universe such that rebellion was possible
So all this is a result of the way God made the universe.

So was the child's death in accordance with God's will?

Texts supporting free will.​

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right. Source

• John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
  
  
• 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
  
  
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
  
  
• Gal 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
  
  
• Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
  
  
• Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
  
  
• Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
  
  
• Rom 13:2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
  
  
• Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
  
  
• Isaiah 55:6-7 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
  
  
• Deut 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live...
  
  
• Ezekiel 18:30-32 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Texts against free will​

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything. Source

• Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is no other; ... I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do.
  
  
• Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
  
  
• Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. NOTE: see here for alternative translations.
  
  
• Psalms 33:10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations
  
  
• Eph 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
  
  
• Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
  
  
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" John 6:44
  
  
• Rom 8:7-8 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

Does God control the Universe?​

One of my friends who follows a Reformed faith which often emphasizes the sovereignty of God, asked me once, "Do you think there is any part of the universe, any atom or any minute element, that is not under the control of God?" I have thought about this questions often. The implication is that if all the parts of the universe ARE under God's control, then they must be doing exactly what He wants them to be doing.

• What does it mean to be under the control of God? Is God actively thinking about every atom and choosing a unique and individualized path for it? Or is God massively parallel (to use a computer concept), and doing all the things all at once? Did He decide how things would work (i.e. establish physical laws), and then consistently stick to those principles? If those physical laws are used to kill someone with an exploding bomb, does that mean that God "did it?"
  
  
• If God wanted to, could He set up a universe that contains randomness? Classical physics from Isaac Newton envisioned a world comprised of atoms all zooming around with individual speeds, masses and directions. And if one could just know all the little parts, then once could predict how everything would play out, like a gigantic clockwork. Nothing can vary, and the entire future is already determined by the current state of the all the atoms. But with careful study of God's universe, we have actually found that there appears to be built in randomness at the level of the quantum. (More about this here.) If God did not want everything to be boringly predictive and instead created aspects of the laws of physics that are random and NOT predictable, would that mean that God is not in control? I would argue NO. As a computer programmer, I can create a tiny artificial world inside a computer. Think about a computer game that appears 3D with characters running around inside it. I can make that world operate by any rules I want, and if I choose to make some elements random and surprising even to me, I would argue that the computerized world is still under my control.
  
  
• Can there be a conflict exist in God's universe between His ultimate will (that all be in harmony), and His practical individualized will (e.g. striking the priest Uzzah dead for touching the ark to teach His people proper respect)? In my example of the exploding bomb above, God might have a will to establish consistency in the universe. So the laws of physics are always the same, all the time. He may also have a will to not have children killed by cruel bombs. So there is a conflict. He could quickly alter the laws of physics such that they work differently such that no child will be killed by a bomb. But how would that play out? Think about Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. God could see that Cain was angry with his brother Abel and considering murder. God came down and personally tried to reason with Cain and head off the situation. But when Cain didn't cooperate, and instead used the laws of physics to kill Abel, God did NOT send an angel to grab Cain's hands, or suddenly change the neurons in Cain's brain so they thought differently, or alter the physical laws such that his murder failed. Why not when God clearly didn't want Abel killed? Because to do so would violate the His principle of autonomy for His children, taking away their free will and turning them into robots. Instead, God solved the problem a different way, though Christ.
  
  
• When Eve ate the forbidden fruit, was this in accordance with the will of God? Did God predestine this action? Was there a chance that she could have NOT eaten it? My belief is that God chose to create a universe wherein it was possible (though not desired) for one of His creations to turn against Him, and thus Lucifer became the devil or Satan. Was this in accordance to God's will? Yes and no. 'Yes' in that God maintained the rules of the universe that allowed for this horror -- just as the rules would later be used in the murder of Abel. But 'No' in that God did not want such things to come about. But once there is an enemy, it is possible for others such as Eve to be persuaded to join in distrustful rebellion. And that is exactly what happened. It was probably inevitable that this would happen on one of the home worlds of the Sons of God (Job 1:6). But was God happy about all the death that would be caused as a result? No. To repeat the text above Ezekiel 18 “...I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

Conclusions​

• God is Sovereign in that He has all the power. So my Reformed friends are correct in this.
• God has used His power to establish rules and principles in the universe. Like gravity that never changes.
• Sometimes His principles can conflict with each other.
• Just because God enables something to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He is happy about it.
• So God being "in control" doesn't mean God wants everything to be the way it is.
• I have never known anyone to be able to explain HOW free will works. But I think it is God's most precious creation, and He went to amazing lengths, even submitting to death on a cross, to show us how to submit our will to God and how it is the only way to be truly free from horrors of a wrong path.

I suspect this will be controversial. What do you all think?

Kevin

Some children are believers. Train up a child in the way he should go. But God doesn't tell us everything. So I'm without an answer.

 

[KevinT]

Thanks. Even my living siblings don't believe in God or sin.

Same here. :-(

KT

 

[Mark Quayle]

Notice that the texts below are appeals to mankind to do the right thing, to repent, to choose what is right.

Notice also, that those of my point-of-view do not deny that man does actually choose, and that his choices are real, with real —even eternal— consequences. We agree completely with those texts that are commonly used to support free will, and do not need to excuse them away, in order to promote God's sovereignty.

Notice that these texts show that regardless of what a man might want to do, God is all powerful and is able to override everything.

Notice also, that your statement doesn't really deal with the solid meaning of being Omnipotent. It isn't a matter of overriding what happens by "whatever reason or cause" but a matter of causing absolutely everything to come to pass precisely as it does. If you would like to hear a logical sequence of thought as to why this is so, please ask.

In general, the many texts used to demonstrate sovereignty and predestination etc, are much stronger than merely claiming the ability to override.

 

[Clare73]

Why are you asking me? You and I aren't God.

I am asking you because you prejoratively referred to someone's statement as harsh.

Do you see Jesus as harsh in Mk 9:42-48?

I apologize if I offended you.

It's not about offending me.

It's about your personal meaning of harsh.

 

[Clare73]

Does God's will result in some who are never saved?

Yes. . .because all are born condemned (Ro 5:18), and he chooses to save only some.

 

[Mark Quayle]

NOTE: this is a CROSS-POST.
Original post here. I want to include that text I wrote there in this thread for my future reference. I feel it touches on similar themes as this thread.

QUESTION: is God omniscient?

In classical, Newtonian, thinking, the entire universe is like a giant clockwork. And with sufficient knowledge, someone like God can simply "turn the crank" a bit faster to figure out where a planet will be in its rotation around the sun on a particular future day, or what a human will be doing on that same day. But subsequent research seems to show that God's universe has randomness built into it.

Steven Wolfram, the man behind Wolfram Alpha, has developing a controversial theory of cellular automata wherein every tiny element of the universe just follows simple rules that when combined create the world we see around us. While many think he is on the wrong track, he often mentions an interesting corollary of being "computationally bound." To simplify the limitation, it is that THERE ARE NO FORMULAS that allow one to predict what will happen in the future. Yes, given the rotational speed of the Earth around the sun, it would seem that we can know exactly where it will be a trillion years in the future. But what about randomness found in the behavior of matter at a quantum level? Or the fact that galaxies such as our own Milky Way galaxy can collide with each other? Or that a massive asteroid could hit the earth deflecting its path? Or the Butterfly Effect wherein the tiniest of changes of initial conditions can have tremendous effects on outcome. In the end, you have to wait and actually see what happens. In a Newtonian world view, we would say that God with a perfect understanding of the current state of every atom can know all about the incoming asteroid or colliding galaxies. But if there truly is randomness built in by God, then God Himself could theoretically not know exactly how it will play out.

By what I'm going to say, I'm not wishing to denigrate anyone nor to exalt myself here. But it is illogical to say that God being omniscient could create without causing what he knew was going to fall out. To introduce the notion, then, of randomness, is to attribute substance to a notion that in fact is only "a shortcut to 'I don't know'." If God created, and is omniscient, then there is nothing happening by chance or at random. This has everything to do with the very definition of God. He is the only uncreated creator, and while it is seductive to consider the notion of him creating a principle called 'randomness' or chance because the counter-intuitive does appeal to the soul, it is self-contradictory to say that randomness or chance can produce anything in particular, and everything is particular.

I usually have no argument from anyone about that, until they realize that this implies that God actually INTENDED for everything, to include every detail, to fall out as it does.

Would randomness remove the omniscience of God? Yes and No, depending on how one defines omniscience. Imagine a person setting out to drive to the store. They know they are going to the store, and they will make sure they get there. But they might encounter all sorts of bumps in the road or needed detours along the way. But in the end they do arrive just as planned. Another example would be a parent that insists a reluctant child go to school. The child tries this and that approach to be allowed to stay home and "play hooky", but the wise parent heads each attempt off and the child goes to school as planned. In each of these examples, we could say that the person knew the "end from the beginning." They knew their goal, and they had the power to overcome circumstances that arose.

So I would say Yes God in omniscient if one means that God has plans and is able to enact them regardless of random setbacks. And furthermore with great power, able to predict those parts of the universe that have little randomness. I think the Bible texts describing God's ability to see the future fall into this camp.

But I would also say No regarding omniscience if one means that God has the path of every atom in the universe already planned out, and the future is fixed and unchangeable.

KT

Once again appealing back to either (both) the definition of GOD and the fact of Omnipotence and Omniscience, one has to logically conclude that indeed every detail is intended to exist and to do what it does. "There is no rogue particle".

But if you indeed think that there are things God cannot know, you are in good company. The 'Middle Knowledge' and 'Open Theism' crowds think this. How they (or you) can suppose that there is such a principle [that is also created by God] that God, the very 'inventor' of reality, did not know enough about, but instead has to, as it seems to me, "fly by the seat of his pants", in order to bring his purposes to pass, is beyond me. To me it is simply self-contradictory. He made it, omnisciently, yet doesn't know it?? The notion places the principle, made by him, as beyond him. Anyway, like I said, I mean no disrespect. —God knows my thinking is full of inconsistencies, too, and admittedly, a fair proportion of ignorance-on-purpose.

(Disclaimer: I'm going to say something here that will sound to some like Pantheism or Panentheism, or even Animism of a sort. It is not). There is much more to say about the reasons to disagree that there is such a thing as actual randomness or chance. For myself, and admittedly this detail is not specifically orthodoxy, though orthodoxy does speak of his Immanence, I see reason to think that God is intimately involved in every thing that he created. One of my speculations, and I think there is something to it, is that the very essence of matter and energy, if not also the very essence of fact itself, and reality, is made of a very (perhaps even physical) something of God —his love. It would explain an awful lot of things we read in Scripture. "In him we live and move and have our being", could be more literal than most are comfortable considering.

Immanence also denies the Wolfram notion (as I understand it) that the details are merely programmed to fulfill their destiny, which I consider pure deism. To me it is silly. The fact that what we observe seems to follow rules does not mean that God is not actively IN those rules (to say it from a human perspective). WHAT WE OBSERVE AND ASSESS AND CATEGORIZE IS A LONG WAY FROM THE FACT OF THE MATTER.

But the implications of the overriding logic referred to by philosophers as the Cosmological Argument leave no room for chance or randomness, except as a concept WE HUMANS hold as representative for the things we simply don't have the depth of knowledge nor capacity for data to digest nor time and patience to pursue to their end —i.e., the words only mean, "I DON'T KNOW."

But, once again, I attribute substance to my own thoughts and words, as do those that think they have this figured out. "Words mean things", but ours don't mean very much.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is an old one. I do not think God ordained the fall, but He made it a possibility. This is a creation of the possible. For God to achieve His main purpose for creation, things must be "allowed" to happen. Not on a one-by-one basis as some teach from Job, but as a default creation rule. The functions of chance and even risk has to be in effect. Job is a good subject for this. The common teaching is that God had to give Satan permission to do what he did to Job. Say they that God "allowed" it to happen as a one-time special act of permission, as if it could not have happened except that God allowed it. But God did not have to give Satan permission to do anything. Satan had and has defaulted, standing permission to do anything he wants within the bounds of his innate power and ability. A lion does not need permission to get a gazelle. He has standing permission to get the gazelle from the day he was created. God did not give Satan immediate special permission, and Satan did not even ask for such permission. As stated, he did not have to ask for something he already had. It was not permission that prevented Satan from doing the evil he wanted to do. It was a hedge. The hedge came down, which opened Job to the attack of Satan. That is what God was saying to Satan when He said, "Look, all he has is in your hands." He was not giving Satan permission... he already had that. He was simply informing Satan that there was no longer a hedge.
Back to Adam and Eve. There had to be the possibility of a fall. It's not an orchestration but an opening. Yes, God knew they would fall, but knowing what will happen is not the same as making it happen. (There is the old debate asking how could God change the future if that future never happens? If it never happens (because He changed the future), then how could He know it had to be changed?) Essentially, for God to have a family that loved Him, there had to be the possibility of a fallen nature that could choose God, not by design but through suffering and struggle. God did not want autonomous robots who praised, worshiped, and obeyed on command. He wanted genuine, loving children who would serve Him from the heart. These beings had to have free will, and the risk of sin had to be allowed, or rather, open.

I hope you realize that this notion implies that God is subject to forces outside himself. The mental picture is that of God coming upon an already existing reality, instead of God being the one that created reality. To me, at least, this amounts to blasphemy. (No I'm not claiming you are blaspheming, but that you haven't thought this through. You present a very capable, but small, god.)

 

[Mark Quayle]

In this paradigm, there are no accidents, no fate, and no chance. In the above mini-drama, if the rock hits a man on the head, we would call it an accident. The hyper-control theorist would insist there are no accidents. If his theories were true, then he would be right. God directly and intentionally orchestrated the rock to fall on the man's head. But here is the problem. The scripture speaks of accidents, fate, and chance again and again. God even states there are events that He had nothing to do with. "Time and chance happen to all."

Do you think that Scripture does not "talk down" to us? Would it be God lying if he speaks in anthropomorphisms?

By the way, Ecclesiastes is mainly a parenthesis, or envelope, of thought presupposing the universe runs naturally, deistically or atheistically, separate from God's will. Notice the introduction and "the conclusion of the matter".

 

[Mark Quayle]

What drives me crazy is when the "hyper-control" believers imply that every horrible thing that happens is just the way God wanted it to be. One commenter on this forum replied once that God ordained that Eve and Adam would fall, and that there was no chance of them NOT falling, and that this was all the will of God, with the intention of God being to reveal His grace through Jesus. Many people seem to believe this way, so I have to be respectful, but it makes me want to bang my head on the wall.

For whatever it is worth, those who you term, "'hyper-control' believers", feel the same about those who relegate anything to mere chance.

 

[Rescued One]

I am asking you because you prejoratively referred to someone's statement as harsh.

Do you see Jesus as harsh in Mk 9:42-48?

It's not about offending me.

It's about your personal meaning of harsh.

Did you mean: pejoratively

​

 

[Rescued One]

Notice also, that those of my point-of-view do not deny that man does actually choose, and that his choices are real, with real —even eternal— consequences. We agree completely with those texts that are commonly used to support free will, and do not need to excuse them away, in order to promote God's sovereignty.

Notice also, that your statement doesn't really deal with the solid meaning of being Omnipotent. It isn't a matter of overriding what happens by "whatever reason or cause" but a matter of causing absolutely everything to come to pass precisely as it does. If you would like to hear a logical sequence of thought as to why this is so, please ask.

In general, the many texts used to demonstrate sovereignty and predestination etc, are much stronger than merely claiming the ability to override.

I'm doing my best to completely comprehend. But I believe God has a plan, I trust Him and His plan.

 

[Clare73]

Did you mean: pejoratively

Yeah, that's it! . . .first mistake I ever made, so glad it's over with!

And back to: Do you see Jesus as harsh in Mk 9:42-48?