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Thou shalt not kill

sinimat

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I sincerly thank you for some of your heart-felt questions. However, some are very hard-hearted and cannot think beyond the current lifestyle one lives. We should not eat meat because doing so causes so much suffering and pain within the world. So many animals are needlessly killed to suit our needs, but this does not have to happen. Eating animals directly supports killing.

"But someone will have to pay
For the innocent blood
That they shed ever day, oh children mark my word
It's what the bible say Yeah! Yeah!

We no know how we and them a go work this out
We no know how we and them a go work it out
But in the beginning Jah created everything
He gave man dominion over all things
But now it's too late, you see man have lost their faith
Eating up all the flesh from off the Earth"
~Bob Marley (from the song We and Them on the album Uprising)
 
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Shy21

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AngelusSax said:
The way I see it, God Himself would not have said "every living thing that moves shall be given you to be food" (paraphrased) in the covenant with Noah was an absolute sin... as God never commands us to sin.

G-d only said that AFTER man disobeyed Him. Before that we didn't eat meat.

Some people like to listen to what G-d intended for us to eat in the beginning.

Along with eating meat we are living a sinful life. Caring about an animal's life should be of G-d. Wouldnt you agree?? Or is killing an innocent animal that feels pain of G-d?

I am happy I am not that religious to follow such a horrible act towards things that feel pain like me. Whether my life is valued over a Cow's life means nothing to me. Personally a baby animal life is very important to me....they didnt ask to be animals. Yet they are being punished for man's sin. Isnt G-d a justice god??
 
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sinimat

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Shy21,

Thank you for your sincerity. You have a warm heart. God created all of the animals and it is our responsibility to take care of them. Therefore, this means that we are to introduce a vegetarian diet into our lifestyle. By eating meat, you move farther away from God, as you are directly ingesting sin, karma and murder. A vegetarian diet is more pure and allows you to move closer to God.

Blessings,
Matthew
 
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HouseApe

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EnlightenedWitness said:
God's commandment not to kill was meant for humans not to kill humans. He specifically told Noah that he could eat meat after the flood (just not meat with the lifeblood still in it because that meat is unclean). Read Genesis and you'll get a better idea.

:thumbsup:

Actually, God's commandment not to kill was meant for Jews not to kill Jews. He often commanded them to kill others and never seemed to mind if they did it on their own accord.
 
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Shy21

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xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
Another arguement against the original claim is the plants are living organizms just like animals are. This is why I do not understand vegatarians.... unless they are vegatarians simply because it is a certain diet.

Why do people bring up this argument????

Plants lack nerve endings, brains, hormones, and other structures that would allow them to experience pain. They also lack the ability to move away from sources of stress, an evolutionary trait linked with the ability to feel pain.

Plants, when stressed, release a chemical called ethylene. People say this is the Plants “crying out” and “screaming” in pain. That is sooo untrue.

The research has shown that plants might have a stress-avoidance response, it is quite a stretch to refer to this as “pain.” It is even more erroneous to equate this response with the pain suffered by animals and human beings.

Its amazing how people try to say Plants have pain when the brain is what store our sensory organs and if a Plant doesnt have a brain.....he cant experience pain.;)
 
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kedaman

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1 Corinthians 8

Food Sacrificed to Idols

1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.



4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are socalled gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. 9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
 
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AngelusSax

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G-d only said that AFTER man disobeyed Him. Before that we didn't eat meat.

Some people like to listen to what G-d intended for us to eat in the beginning.
Yes, you are quite right.

However, God doesn't ever tell people to go and sin. So the fact that God told people, EVER, to eat meat, means eating meat is not a sin.
 
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xtxArchxAngelxtx

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Shy21 said:
Why do people bring up this argument????

Plants lack nerve endings, brains, hormones, and other structures that would allow them to experience pain. They also lack the ability to move away from sources of stress, an evolutionary trait linked with the ability to feel pain.

Plants, when stressed, release a chemical called ethylene. People say this is the Plants “crying out” and “screaming” in pain. That is sooo untrue.

The research has shown that plants might have a stress-avoidance response, it is quite a stretch to refer to this as “pain.” It is even more erroneous to equate this response with the pain suffered by animals and human beings.

Its amazing how people try to say Plants have pain when the brain is what store our sensory organs and if a Plant doesnt have a brain.....he cant experience pain.;)

I never said anything about them experiencing pain one way or another. I did state they were living, which is just as just as you or I... when looking at a scientific view.
 
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Shy21

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xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
I never said anything about them experiencing pain one way or another. I did state they were living, which is just as just as you or I... when looking at a scientific view.

Just because something is living doesnt mean they experience pain. The reason Vegetarians are Vegetarians is because animals feel pain....not because they are living:)
 
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Injured Soldier

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sinamat said:
By eating meat, you move farther away from God, as you are directly ingesting sin, karma and murder. A vegetarian diet is more pure and allows you to move closer to God.

Verse to support your argument? All I've seen so far is a few misquoted verses from Genesis. Where does Jesus say the way to God is through being nice to animals? God killed a lamb to clothe Adam and Eve in skins (the alternative, he skinned a lamb alive. Infinately more cruel). God was satisfied with Abel's sacrifice of a lamb but not Cain's of grain. Before Jesus, it was a requirement to be even considered right in God's sight to kill animals, lots of them. Jesus himself said (in Mark 7:18-19):

"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him unclean? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body"

If you want to be a vegetarian, go ahead, we're not stopping you. You will be healthier, have more energy, and will feel good about your stance. But don't you DARE try to mention a few verses out of context and tell me the real way to get closer to God that the rest of the Bible fails to mention. The only way is through Jesus. If you are saying otherwise, then the Bible calls you a liar and a false apostle. You may reject your Bible, thinking your lovey-dovey salvation is better. Or you may see the Bible is right and what you have said is wrong. But they both can't be right. Make a decision in your life and stick to it, rather than having to hijack others beliefs for your agenda.
 
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sinimat

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Dear xtxArchxAngelxtx,

Eating a piece of fruit from a tree, does not kill the entire living plant. This is completely different from killing an entire animal to satisfy lust for eating flesh.

HouseApe,

I do not understand your point. How can you selectively take certain parts from the Bible and accept them as literal truth and dismiss others? Adam and Eve were not Jews, they were humans, just like all of us. God gave them simple instructions, eat all of the green vegetation. It's a simple fact and there is nothing that people can say which can negate that. If you try, you are just in denial about the consequences of your daily actions of eating animals.
 
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HouseApe

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sinimat said:
HouseApe,

I do not understand your point. How can you selectively take certain parts from the Bible and accept them as literal truth and dismiss others? Adam and Eve were not Jews, they were humans, just like all of us. God gave them simple instructions, eat all of the green vegetation. It's a simple fact and there is nothing that people can say which can negate that. If you try, you are just in denial about the consequences of your daily actions of eating animals.

Um, I'm an atheist. I don't accept any parts of the Bible as true.

Hey, I'm a rabid environmentalist. I like to point out to Christians that the very purpose God gave to man was to tend the garden He created. Right out of Genesis, pretty close to what you are dredging up.

Doesn't work though. Christians can have about any view imaginable. Don't like how God expects Adam & Eve to live? Doesn't apply anymore, cause man in "fallen". Don't like something out of the OT? Doesn't matter, Jesus created a new covenant.

I'm afraid your argument, while perfectly valid, will be easily brushed by.
 
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AngelusSax

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It is just very perplexing to me why Christians think eating meat is acceptable.

Perhaps it's because God said it was okay time and again through the Old Testament, and Jesus also said that what enters a mouth does not make a person unclean, but what comes from it does.

If you actually take time to read the Bible past Genesis 1:1, you'll see that.
 
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Shy21

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AngelusSax said:
Perhaps it's because God said it was okay time and again through the Old Testament, and Jesus also said that what enters a mouth does not make a person unclean, but what comes from it does.

If you actually take time to read the Bible past Genesis 1:1, you'll see that.

I think he is saying in a moral way. Something that feels pain...how can you kill it and eat it? Maybe I can be wrong...I dont know.
 
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sinimat

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Shy21,

You are correct. Animals do feel pain and God has instructed humans to have dominion over all things. However, that means watching over and taking care of, not doing with as we please. People's hearts are hardened or they do not want to open up their eyes to the fact that eating animals causes pain and suffering. Some people know it in their hearts, but are too afraid to recognize that humans cause pain to so many others, animals and humans alike.

Peace to you dear soul.
 
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sinimat

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By Bill Moyers, The Star Tribune, February 1st, 2005

One of the biggest changes in politics in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the Oval Office and in Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold a monopoly of power in Washington.

Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a worldview despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality. When ideology and theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to the facts.

Remember James Watt, President Ronald Reagan's first Secretary of the Interior? My favorite online environmental journal, the ever-engaging Grist, reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony, he said, "after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back."

Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was talking about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out across the country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true - one-third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is accurate. In this past election several million good and decent citizens went to the polls believing in the rapture index.

That's right - the rapture index. Google it and you will find that the best-selling books in America today are the 12 volumes of the "Left Behind" series written by the Christian fundamentalist and religious-right warrior Timothy LaHaye. These true believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the imagination of millions of Americans.

Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to him for adding to my own understanding): Once Israel has occupied the rest of its "biblical lands," legions of the antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon.

As the Jews who have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and transported to Heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores, locusts and frogs during the several years of tribulation that follow.

I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the West Bank. They are sincere, serious and polite as they tell you they feel called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical prophecy. That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book of Revelations where four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man." A war with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed - an essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time I Googled it, the rapture index stood at 144 - just one point below the critical threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of God will return, the righteous will enter Heaven and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire.

So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to Grist to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist Glenn Scherer - "The Road to Environmental Apocalypse." Read it and you will see how millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - even hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse.

As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the U.S. Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total and more since the election - are backed by the religious right.

Forty-five senators and 186 members of the 108th Congress earned 80 to 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential Christian right advocacy groups. They include Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Assistant Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference Chair Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, Policy Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat to score 100 percent with the Christian coalition was Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently quoted from the biblical book of Amos on the Senate floor: "The days will come, sayeth the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land." He seemed to be relishing the thought.

And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 Time-CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the book of Revelations are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think the Bible predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive across the country with your radio tuned to the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations, or in the motel turn on some of the 250 Christian TV stations, and you can hear some of this end-time gospel. And you will come to understand why people under the spell of such potent prophecies cannot be expected, as Grist puts it, "to worry about the environment. Why care about the earth, when the droughts, floods, famine and pestilence brought by ecological collapse are signs of the apocalypse foretold in the Bible? Why care about global climate change when you and yours will be rescued in the rapture? And why care about converting from oil to solar when the same God who performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes can whip up a few billion barrels of light crude with a word?"

Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the Lord will provide. One of their texts is a high school history book, "America's Providential History." You'll find there these words: "The secular or socialist has a limited-resource mentality and views the world as a pie ... that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece." However, "[t]he Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited and that there is no shortage of resources in God's earth ... while many secularists view the world as overpopulated, Christians know that God has made the earth sufficiently large with plenty of resources to accommodate all of the people."

No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling that militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers." He turned out millions of the foot soldiers on Nov. 2, including many who have made the apocalypse a powerful driving force in modern American politics.

It is hard for the journalist to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me put it on a personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this world without expecting a confident future and getting up every morning to do what I can to bring it about. So I have always been an optimist. Now, however, I think of my friend on Wall Street whom I once asked: "What do you think of the market? "I'm optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my optimism is justified."

I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will protect the natural environment when they realize its importance to their health and to the health and lives of their children. Now I am not so sure. It's not that I don't want to believe that - it's just that I read the news and connect the dots.

I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the environment. This for an administration:

a.. That wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act protecting rare plant and animal species and their habitats, as well as the National Environmental Policy Act, which requires the government to judge beforehand whether actions might damage natural resources. b.. That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle tailpipe inspections, and ease pollution standards for cars, sport-utility vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment. c.. That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to keep certain information about environmental problems secret from the public. d.. That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against polluting, coal-fired power plants and weaken consent decrees reached earlier with coal companies. e.. That wants to open the Arctic [National] Wildlife Refuge to drilling and increase drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last great coastal wild land in America.

I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental Protection Agency had planned to spend $9 million - $2 million of it from the administration's friends at the American Chemistry Council - to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in their homes. These pesticides have been linked to neurological damage in children, but instead of ordering an end to their use, the government and the industry were going to offer the families $970 each, as well as a camcorder and children's clothing, to serve as guinea pigs for the study.

I read all this in the news.

I read the news just last night and learned that the administration's friends at the International Policy Network, which is supported by Exxon Mobil and others of like mind, have issued a new report that climate change is "a myth, sea levels are not rising" [and] scientists who believe catastrophe is possible are "an embarrassment."

I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent appropriations bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and obscene) riders attached to it: a clause removing all endangered species protections from pesticides; language prohibiting judicial review for a forest in Oregon; a waiver of environmental review for grazing permits on public lands; a rider pressed by developers to weaken protection for crucial habitats in California.

I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the computer - pictures of my grandchildren. I see the future looking back at me from those photographs and I say, "Father, forgive us, for we know not what we do." And then I am stopped short by the thought: "That's not right. We do know what we are doing. We are stealing their future. Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world."

And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are greedy? Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability to sustain indignation at injustice?

What has happened to our moral imagination?

On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'"

I see it feelingly.

The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a journalist I know the news is never the end of the story. The news can be the truth that sets us free - not only to feel but to fight for the future we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to despair, the cure for cynicism, and the answer to those faces looking back at me from those photographs on my desk. What we need is what the ancient Israelites called hochma - the science of the heart ... the capacity to see, to feel and then to act as if the future depended on you.

Believe me, it does.

 
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theywhosowintears

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sinimat said:
It clearly says in the Bible that before the fall of man, God's creation was entirely vegetarian. Why do so called "Christians," who claim to follow Jesus, promote killing by eating animals? The message of Jesus was to love, not kill.

Fundamental "Christians" believe in the words of the Bible. However, they continue to ignore the very first instructions of God:

From The Book of Genesis:
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Gen 1
28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Gen 3
21Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. -God was the first to kill an animal, to covern Adam and Eve.

Acts 10
** 9The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."

*** 14But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."

*** 15And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common." 16This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

Romans 14
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand

Matthew 14
**10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ ”

Mark 7
14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’ ”...
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18“Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)
***

Anyhoo if that doesn't shine a light on the topic...nothing will...

peace
 
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