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Okay, I was going to post this in the Lutheran forum, but I decided to put it here first, and maybe start a parallel thread later.
This has been a source of confusion for me of late
I have read both Lutherans and Orthodox claim that we believe the same thing, only have a confusion of terms, and have read both Lutherans and Orthodox claim that our views are as different as the sun and moon. My knowledge of Theosis is limited, so it has been hard for me to gauge who has misconseptions about it and who does not, and whether some are just trying to blur differences that are real. I do notice that often when different Orthodox speak against the Lutheran belief, they are often full of misconceptions, and have more to do with Reformed and Anabaptist views.
From the LCMS website, it seems that from our position, the objection is less with the content than just that justification and sanctification are not clearly differenciated. And considering the West's past with indugences, Manicheanism, Pelagianism, etc., we are somewhat wary when that is done.
I know at least on the surface we believe the same thing. I read a couple of pages out of an Orthodox book in the library the other day during lunch. I read the story (loosely paraphrased from memory) about the bishop who was walking a long and a lady asked him "Bishop, are you saved?" And he asked her, "Do you mean am I saved, am I being saved, or will I be saved?" And the lady did not know what to say, so he said, "Well all three are true, I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." Okay, I know I butched it , but I'm sure you know the story or a similair one. My point is that we believe in the same thing.
First point, Sola Fide/Faith Alone. An unfortunate slogan that we perhaps never should have coined. The truth is, we do not really believe in faith alone, in other words, when we say faith alone, we do not mean that it is faith that justifies us, especially in the gnostic sense, but we believe in Christ Alone, that it is Christ and His merit that justifies us. We do in fact believe that works, sacraments, preservance, chastity, etc., are indeed necessary for salvation and that there is even merit in it. What we do not believe is that it is such actions that are the source (?) of our justification, sanctification, salvation, etc.
I like the way Melanchthon explained it:
"He who does not love remains in death." Therefore it is impossible to say that a person is righteous by faith alone.
I agree with the above if you understand that faith must not be alone. But it does not follow from this that love is the cause of the remission of sins, just as it is necessary to add patience to faith, but it does not follow that our patience is a cause of our remission of sins. The exclusive particle does not exclude our virtues from being present, but it does exclude them as being the cause of our reconciliation, and this exclusionary idea does mean that the merit of Christ alone is the cause of our reconciliation. And we must also understand that it is necessary to remove our human imaginings from the righteousness of the Law which arises out of love for God.
Martin Chemnitz is always good as well:
The Testimonies of Scripture are clear, that the renewal of the new man, as also the mortification of the old, is not perfect and complete in this life but that it grows and is increased day by day until it is perfected in the next life, when this corruptible will have put on incorruption. Profitable also and necessary in the church are exhortations that the the regenerate should not neglect, extinguish, or cast away the gifts of the Spirit which they have recieved but that they stir them up with true and earnest exercises, calling on the help of the Holy Spirit, that He may give an increase of faith, hope, love, and of the other spiritual gifts; for what the punishment of spiritual neglligence is the parable of spiritual negligence is the parable of the talents shows. There is also no doubt that faith is effectual through love, that it is the mother goods works, and that good works please God through faith for the sake of Christ. And in this sense the statement in James 2:21-24 can be understood and accepted appropriately and rightly, that through the numerous good works that followed Abraham is declared to have been truly justified by faith, and it is shown that faith is not empty and dead, but true and living.
This has been a source of confusion for me of late
I have read both Lutherans and Orthodox claim that we believe the same thing, only have a confusion of terms, and have read both Lutherans and Orthodox claim that our views are as different as the sun and moon. My knowledge of Theosis is limited, so it has been hard for me to gauge who has misconseptions about it and who does not, and whether some are just trying to blur differences that are real. I do notice that often when different Orthodox speak against the Lutheran belief, they are often full of misconceptions, and have more to do with Reformed and Anabaptist views.
From the LCMS website, it seems that from our position, the objection is less with the content than just that justification and sanctification are not clearly differenciated. And considering the West's past with indugences, Manicheanism, Pelagianism, etc., we are somewhat wary when that is done.
I know at least on the surface we believe the same thing. I read a couple of pages out of an Orthodox book in the library the other day during lunch. I read the story (loosely paraphrased from memory) about the bishop who was walking a long and a lady asked him "Bishop, are you saved?" And he asked her, "Do you mean am I saved, am I being saved, or will I be saved?" And the lady did not know what to say, so he said, "Well all three are true, I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." Okay, I know I butched it
, but I'm sure you know the story or a similair one. My point is that we believe in the same thing.First point, Sola Fide/Faith Alone. An unfortunate slogan that we perhaps never should have coined. The truth is, we do not really believe in faith alone, in other words, when we say faith alone, we do not mean that it is faith that justifies us, especially in the gnostic sense, but we believe in Christ Alone, that it is Christ and His merit that justifies us. We do in fact believe that works, sacraments, preservance, chastity, etc., are indeed necessary for salvation and that there is even merit in it. What we do not believe is that it is such actions that are the source (?) of our justification, sanctification, salvation, etc.
I like the way Melanchthon explained it:
"He who does not love remains in death." Therefore it is impossible to say that a person is righteous by faith alone.
I agree with the above if you understand that faith must not be alone. But it does not follow from this that love is the cause of the remission of sins, just as it is necessary to add patience to faith, but it does not follow that our patience is a cause of our remission of sins. The exclusive particle does not exclude our virtues from being present, but it does exclude them as being the cause of our reconciliation, and this exclusionary idea does mean that the merit of Christ alone is the cause of our reconciliation. And we must also understand that it is necessary to remove our human imaginings from the righteousness of the Law which arises out of love for God.
Martin Chemnitz is always good as well:
The Testimonies of Scripture are clear, that the renewal of the new man, as also the mortification of the old, is not perfect and complete in this life but that it grows and is increased day by day until it is perfected in the next life, when this corruptible will have put on incorruption. Profitable also and necessary in the church are exhortations that the the regenerate should not neglect, extinguish, or cast away the gifts of the Spirit which they have recieved but that they stir them up with true and earnest exercises, calling on the help of the Holy Spirit, that He may give an increase of faith, hope, love, and of the other spiritual gifts; for what the punishment of spiritual neglligence is the parable of spiritual negligence is the parable of the talents shows. There is also no doubt that faith is effectual through love, that it is the mother goods works, and that good works please God through faith for the sake of Christ. And in this sense the statement in James 2:21-24 can be understood and accepted appropriately and rightly, that through the numerous good works that followed Abraham is declared to have been truly justified by faith, and it is shown that faith is not empty and dead, but true and living.
I myself come from more of an atheist background than anything else. I just kind of wondered what was the point of the book by the time I was done? That's not to say I didn't learn anything from it.