The Yahweh Name

[Der Alte]

Greetings again Yeshua HaDerekh,
I am still confused at what you are driving at, or avoiding or denying. Surely Yeho is equivalent to Yahweh, the shortened form of Yahweh. When the Masorites added the vowel pointing of Adonai and Elohim to Yahweh, to be consistent they added the same portion of this to YH and hence Yeho instead of Yah.
The change of name for Oshea to Joshua is thus Yah-Oshea, and the lesson is exactly the same as with Moses in Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 3:14 that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father would be with Joshua, to bring the children of Israel into the promised Land. The first stage of God's activity was under Moses, to deliver Israel out of Egypt, the second stage of God's activity was under Joshua, to bring them into the Land. Thus the Yahweh Name is a future tense, of activity "I will be/He will be" Exodus 6:1-8, not existence "I AM". as summarised in the OP. Like Moses, Joshua would feel inadequate to achieve this result as a leader, but the God of activity, Yahweh, would be with him to achieve God's purpose and promise to the Fathers, and bring Israel into the Land.
Kind regards
Trevor

I disagree with part of your conclusions. When YHWH first gave His name to Moses He was already, that was not something He was going to be in the future. But in some occurrences a future meaning would be appropriate.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Der Alte,

I disagree with part of your conclusions. When YHWH first gave His name to Moses He was already, that was not something He was going to be in the future. But in some occurrences a future meaning would be appropriate.

The fact that God was proclaiming a future activity necessitates that he already existed. The "I will be/He will be" is not speaking of a future existence but a future activity.

I received today a 381 page paper on this subject, and I suggest that the opening statement has much to commend it. I had to edit a large portion of the pdf translation, and I replaced some of the Hebrew, and hope I got most of the rest correct.

MAKING SENSE OF THE DIVINE NAME IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS: FROM ETYMOLOGY TO LITERARY ONOMASTICS by Austin D. Surls August 2015

(Introductory Statement):
The book of Exodus defines the divine name YHWH, providing a description of God’s character that is fundamental for biblical and theological reflection. Most have found this definition in Exod 3:13–15, in the supposedly original form “Yahweh,” which relates etymologically to the enigmatic phrase Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. However, this text is ancillary to and preparatory for the true revelation of the divine name. YHWH progressively revealed his name at three critical points in the book of Exodus (3:13–15, 6:2–8, and 33:12–23, 34:6–7). God’s response to Moses’ request for his name in Exod 3:13–15 is couched in a Pentateuchal form called an explicit naming wordplay (commonly referred to as a “folk etymology”). Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh should be translated “I will be whoever I will be,” indicating that YHWH would reveal the sense of his name through future actions and proclamations. Exodus 6:2–8 suggests that YHWH would become known by name in a new way to Moses’ generation. YHWH uttered the “recognition formula” to associate the powerful actions of the plagues and exodus events with his name. Nevertheless, YHWH’s definitive declaration of his character came after Israel’s blatant idolatry. He responded to Moses’ intercession (Exod 33:12–23) by proclaiming the name YHWH in a formulaic manner that Israel could appropriate (Exod 34:6–7). The Hebrew Bible quotes or alludes to this text in many genres, demonstrating its centrality to Israel’s faith and to Old Testament Theology.

The critical issues raised by Exod 3:13–15 and Exod 6:2–8 have attracted an overwhelming amount of attention and comment. However, they are rarely interpreted together with Exod 33:12–23 and 34:6–7. The character of God cannot be discerned from an etymological analysis of the word YHWH, but from a close study of YHWH’s deliberate onomastic ascription made in response to Israel’s sin.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Der Alte]

Greetings again Yeshua HaDerekh,
I am still confused at what you are driving at, or avoiding or denying. Surely Yeho is equivalent to Yahweh, the shortened form of Yahweh. When the Masorites added the vowel pointing of Adonai and Elohim to Yahweh, to be consistent they added the same portion of this to YH and hence Yeho instead of Yah.
The change of name for Oshea to Joshua is thus Yah-Oshea, and the lesson is exactly the same as with Moses in Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 3:14 that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father would be with Joshua, to bring the children of Israel into the promised Land. The first stage of God's activity was under Moses, to deliver Israel out of Egypt, the second stage of God's activity was under Joshua, to bring them into the Land. Thus the Yahweh Name is a future tense, of activity "I will be/He will be" Exodus 6:1-8, not existence "I AM". as summarised in the OP. Like Moses, Joshua would feel inadequate to achieve this result as a leader, but the God of activity, Yahweh, would be with him to achieve God's purpose and promise to the Fathers, and bring Israel into the Land.
Kind regards
Trevor

I disagree with part of your conclusions. When YHWH first gave His name to Moses He was already, that was not something He was going to be in the future. But in some occurrences a future meaning would be appropriate.
Hebrew does not have tenses. No present tense, no future tense. Or any other tense permutation.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Der Alte,

Hebrew does not have tenses. No present tense, no future tense. Or any other tense permutation.

Hebrew has perfect and imperfect tenses. "Ehyeh" and "Yahweh" are in the imperfect tense and best represented in English by the future tense "I will be" and "He will be".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Der Alte]

Greetings again Der Alte,

Hebrew has perfect and imperfect tenses. "Ehyeh" and "Yahweh" are in the imperfect tense and best represented in English by the future tense "I will be" and "He will be".

Kind regards
Trevor

I learned it as not tenses but states. complete imcomplete.

 

[Der Alte]

Greetings again Der Alte,
The fact that God was proclaiming a future activity necessitates that he already existed. The "I will be/He will be" is not speaking of a future existence but a future activity.
I received today a 381 page paper on this subject, and I suggest that the opening statement has much to commend it. I had to edit a large portion of the pdf translation, and I replaced some of the Hebrew, and hope I got most of the rest correct.
MAKING SENSE OF THE DIVINE NAME IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS: FROM ETYMOLOGY TO LITERARY ONOMASTICS by Austin D. Surls August 2015
(Introductory Statement):
The book of Exodus defines the divine name YHWH, providing a description of God’s character that is fundamental for biblical and theological reflection. Most have found this definition in Exod 3:13–15, in the supposedly original form “Yahweh,” which relates etymologically to the enigmatic phrase Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. However, this text is ancillary to and preparatory for the true revelation of the divine name. YHWH progressively revealed his name at three critical points in the book of Exodus (3:13–15, 6:2–8, and 33:12–23, 34:6–7). God’s response to Moses’ request for his name in Exod 3:13–15 is couched in a Pentateuchal form called an explicit naming wordplay (commonly referred to as a “folk etymology”). Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh should be translated “I will be whoever I will be,” indicating that YHWH would reveal the sense of his name through future actions and proclamations. Exodus 6:2–8 suggests that YHWH would become known by name in a new way to Moses’ generation. YHWH uttered the “recognition formula” to associate the powerful actions of the plagues and exodus events with his name. Nevertheless, YHWH’s definitive declaration of his character came after Israel’s blatant idolatry. He responded to Moses’ intercession (Exod 33:12–23) by proclaiming the name YHWH in a formulaic manner that Israel could appropriate (Exod 34:6–7). The Hebrew Bible quotes or alludes to this text in many genres, demonstrating its centrality to Israel’s faith and to Old Testament Theology.
The critical issues raised by Exod 3:13–15 and Exod 6:2–8 have attracted an overwhelming amount of attention and comment. However, they are rarely interpreted together with Exod 33:12–23 and 34:6–7. The character of God cannot be discerned from an etymological analysis of the word YHWH, but from a close study of YHWH’s deliberate onomastic ascription made in response to Israel’s sin.
Kind regards
Trevor

Think I'll go with the 10 page article at the Jewish Encyclopedia.
Here is is one paragraph.

In appearance, Yhwh (

) is the third person singular imperfect "ḳal" of the verb

("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (

, from

, the later equivalent of the archaic stem

). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "ḥai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).​

NAMES OF GOD - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

​

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Der Alte,

Think I'll go with the 10 page article at the Jewish Encyclopedia.

I prefer what I have endorsed and advocated in Posts 1 and 2, especially with the support of Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 6:1-8, and what I have stated in other Posts. The following is another aspect that I find interesting:

The Yahweh Name (cont’d)
Another aspect of the appearance of the word “Yahweh” is the two different versions. In the following, the first four occurrences are translated “GOD”, while the next two are translated “LORD”.

Isaiah 50:4–10 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up. 10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

Those occurrences that are translated “LORD” are the most common in the OT and is the Strongs #3068, while “GOD” is the Strongs #3069.
My Enhanced Strongs has the following for #3068 “unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136” (Adonai).
For #3069 “A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136]; Equal to 3068 but pointed with the vowels of 0430.”

The above explanations are sufficient evidence to dismiss the erroneous rendition “Jehovah”, and most scholars suggest “Yahweh”.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You tell me you said Yeho was a theophoric prefix. Don't know why but when Yah/Yahweh as the first part of a theophoric name it is written Yo or Yeho for the last part of a theophoric name it is written yah or yahu.

Shavua tov! Because Yo and YeHo are NOT from "Yahweh"...hint...neither is YaH

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Greetings again Yeshua HaDerekh,



I am still confused at what you are driving at, or avoiding or denying. Surely Yeho is equivalent to Yahweh, the shortened form of Yahweh. When the Masorites added the vowel pointing of Adonai and Elohim to Yahweh, to be consistent they added the same portion of this to YH and hence Yeho instead of Yah.

The change of name for Oshea to Joshua is thus Yah-Oshea, and the lesson is exactly the same as with Moses in Exodus 3:12 and Exodus 3:14 that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father would be with Joshua, to bring the children of Israel into the promised Land. The first stage of God's activity was under Moses, to deliver Israel out of Egypt, the second stage of God's activity was under Joshua, to bring them into the Land. Thus the Yahweh Name is a future tense, of activity "I will be/He will be" Exodus 6:1-8, not existence "I AM". as summarised in the OP. Like Moses, Joshua would feel inadequate to achieve this result as a leader, but the God of activity, Yahweh, would be with him to achieve God's purpose and promise to the Fathers, and bring Israel into the Land.

Kind regards
Trevor

there you go again...1+1=2 not 11...YeHo has nothing to do with "Yahweh"...YaH is a poetic abbreviation, has nothing to do with anything you wrote...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Yeshua HaDerekh,

Shavua tov!

My Hebrew is not good enough to understand this expression. Sounds similar to one of the expressions in Fiddler on the Roof.

Because Yo and YeHo are NOT from "Yahweh"...hint...neither is YaH

there you go again...1+1=2 not 11...YeHo has nothing to do with "Yahweh"...YaH is a poetic abbreviation, has nothing to do with anything you wrote...

There must be a range of opinions about these various words and prefixes. My Enhanced Strongs has:
3050 יָהּ [Yahh /yaw/] n pr dei. Contraction for 3068, and meaning the same; TWOT 484b; GK 3363; 49 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 48 times, and “JAH” once. 1 Jah (Jehovah in the shortened form). 1A the proper name of the one true God. 1B used in many compounds. 1B1 names beginning with the letters ‘Je’. 1B2 names ending with ‘iah’ or ‘jah’.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Greetings again Yeshua HaDerekh,

My Hebrew is not good enough to understand this expression. Sounds similar to one of the expressions in Fiddler on the Roof.

There must be a range of opinions about these various words and prefixes. My Enhanced Strongs has:
3050 יָהּ [Yahh /yaw/] n pr dei. Contraction for 3068, and meaning the same; TWOT 484b; GK 3363; 49 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 48 times, and “JAH” once. 1 Jah (Jehovah in the shortened form). 1A the proper name of the one true God. 1B used in many compounds. 1B1 names beginning with the letters ‘Je’. 1B2 names ending with ‘iah’ or ‘jah’.

Kind regards
Trevor

Shavua tov is "good week". "Tov" means good and "shavua" means week. "Shavuot" means weeks, as in Pentecost. Now you are on the right track in what you posted above...

 

[Der Alte]

Shavua tov! Because Yo and YeHo are NOT from "Yahweh"...hint...neither is YaH

No offense, I don't believe everybody online who claims to be an expert in something. When you can show me something written by some old Jewish guys with letters after their names, I might start believing you until then I will stick with the Names of God article at Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] and/or Brown, Driver, Briggs [BDB] Hebrew lexicon. I have BDB in my personal library and can reach JE with a click. שׁלום

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No offense, I don't believe everybody online who claims to be an expert in something. When you can show me something written by some old Jewish guys with letters after their names, I might start believing you until then I will stick with the Names of God article at Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] and/or Brown, Driver, Briggs [BDB] Hebrew lexicon. I have BDB in my personal library and can reach JE with a click. שׁלום

LOL, you do not even need to know Hebrew to see that! If you disagree then please show me how it is possible....I mean your JE article is the problem...I mean youshould be able to say how YaH is abbreviated...IS it from Yahweh or is it really the first and last letters from YHVH??? Shalom to you too!

 

[Der Alte]

LOL, you do not even need to know Hebrew to see that! If you disagree then please show me how it is possible....I mean your JE article is the problem...I mean youshould be able to say how YaH is abbreviated...IS it from Yahweh or is it really the first and last letters from YHVH??? Shalom to you too!

I think there may have been varying pronunciations in different parts of the country. I base this on Judges 1:2:5-6

Judges 12:5-6
(5) And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
(6) Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.​

 

[TrevorL]

The Yahweh Name (cont’d)
I was interested in reading the extensive article “Jehovah” pages 882-895 in the JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding. One reason I found it of interest is that while this older JW book clearly considers this subject in an open and I consider correct way, the more recent publications ignore this explanation, and emphasise "Jehovah" throughout, even to the point of boasting about their emphasis and use of the erroneous form "Jehovah". I suggest that this misuse of "Jehovah" proves that Judge Rutherford was incorrect when he chose the title "Jehovah Witnesses". Their present hiding of this is part of Jehovah Witnesses propaganda, as it would embarrassing to disclose this error.

The following are a few excerpts that I found to be relevant to the subject of this thread.

Page 882: “Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, but “Yahweh” is preferred by most scholars.

Page 884: The time did come, however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or ‘Elo-him’ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.

Pages 884-885: The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”: By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho-nay’ and ‘Elo-him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho-wah’ and ‘Yeho-wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinised form “Jehova(h)”. The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favour “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.

Page 888: Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” … Moses’ question was a meaningful one. God’s reply in Hebrew was “’Eh-yeh’ asher eh-yeh’.” While some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM,” the Hebrew verb (ha-yah’) from which the word ‘eh-yeh’ is drawn does not mean simply to exist. Rather, it means to come into existence, to happen, occur, become, take on (an attribute), enter upon (a state), or constitute. Thus, the footnote of the Revised Standard Version gives as one reading “I Will Be What I Will Be”.

I do not endorse all that is stated in this JW article, but I consider that the above is correct.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I think there may have been varying pronunciations in different parts of the country. I base this on Judges 1:2:5-6

Judges 12:5-6​

(5) And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;​

(6) Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.​

Shibboleth and Sibboleth is not much of a difference compared to the 2 Names in question...

 

[AbbaLove]

I AM that I AM ​

John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I Am.​

.ahavah means - "His banner over me is Love" ... YaHaVaH .

Hebrew Word of the Week - Ahavah

Ahavah - Love

hebrew4christians.com

Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent Me unto you” (Exodus 3:7–8, 13–14).

​

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings AbbaLove,

I AM that I AM ​

John 8:58 Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I Am.

I support the view that Exodus 3:14 should be rendered as "I will be/become what/who I will be/become" as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins and AB Davidson and other scholars. The same words translated "I Am" in John 8:58 are translated "I am he" in John 8:24,28 and I suggest that the three verse John 8:24,28,58 are part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Messiah, and also on the next level, of whether or not Jesus is the Son of God. I doubt very much that Jesus is claiming to be Deity in John 8:28, as he highlights that he is The Son of Man and absolutely dependent on God, his Father.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

I would even suggest that the popular verse John 8:58 should also be translated "I am he" and is part of this theme:
John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.

I consider the theme is summarised at the end of John's Gospel record:
John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, by birth, by character and by resurrection.

Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent Me unto you” (Exodus 3:7–8, 13–14).

Please note that the present or perfect tense "I Am" appears in Exodus 3:6 "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham ", while the future or imperfect tense appears in Exodus 3:12,14 "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Please note that the present or perfect tense "I Am" appears in Exodus 3:6 "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham ", while the future or imperfect tense appears in Exodus 3:12,14 "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor

"I" אָנֹכִי֙ in Exodus 3:6. Ehyeh in Exodus 3:12 אֶֽהְיֶ֣ה and 3:14 אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה

 

[Fervent]

Greetings AbbaLove,

I support the view that Exodus 3:14 should be rendered as "I will be/become what/who I will be/become" as per Tyndale, RV and RSV margins and AB Davidson and other scholars. The same words translated "I Am" in John 8:58 are translated "I am he" in John 8:24,28 and I suggest that the three verse John 8:24,28,58 are part of the theme in John's Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Messiah, and also on the next level, of whether or not Jesus is the Son of God. I doubt very much that Jesus is claiming to be Deity in John 8:28, as he highlights that he is The Son of Man and absolutely dependent on God, his Father.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

I would even suggest that the popular verse John 8:58 should also be translated "I am he" and is part of this theme:
John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.

I consider the theme is summarised at the end of John's Gospel record:
John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
There is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, by birth, by character and by resurrection.


Please note that the present or perfect tense "I Am" appears in Exodus 3:6 "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham ", while the future or imperfect tense appears in Exodus 3:12,14 "I will be".

Kind regards
Trevor

Just curious, but what are your qualifications for making such an assessment?