The Works of the Law

[Guojing]

Faith is works, or it's not just "saying" I have faith. But however you chose to put it, yes...you?

I lean more towards Faith = Salvation, no works required.

Even though works will tend to be present when one is saved, its not a necessary condition for salvation.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I lean more towards Faith = Salvation, no works required.

Even though works will tend to be present when one is saved, its not a necessary condition for salvation.

Then you disagree with Christ in that he sent people to hell because they didn't help others, or do their works/prove their faith to be actual faith and not just talk? I'm assuming you are familiar with the scripture, but if not, I can post it.

 

[StevenBelievin]

I guess the most biblical way of saying it is that faith apart from works is indeed what saves us. Or works play not part in salvation itself, however a genuine faith that saves will indeed produce the works that the believer was fore-ordained to walk in. Ephesians 2:10

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

The Law of Moses is finished in Christ. We now keep the Law of Christ/Law of the Spirit in Christ by Faith. We are saved by Faith and Justified(shown true unto God) by both faith and works. No Flesh is justified in the Keeping of the Law of Moses(Law written by the Hand of Moses), but we are justified in the Keeping of the laws of Christ(Law which is of Faith). The Ten commandments are Part of The Law of faith so we must keep them as commanded in the NT.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Introduction:

I believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and seeking forgiveness with Him) and it is not by "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). For if we stumble into sin, do we get clean by doing a good work? No. We get clean and forgiven (saved) again by God's grace. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1). But after we are saved by God's grace, I believe that we need to bring forth "works of faith" (obedience to Christ's commands) as a part of the Sanctification process (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives to make us holy) in the next step or stage in the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). Paul also says we can deny God by a lack of works in our life (Titus 1:16).

As for the Law:

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily was taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, he is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):

The Old Way says:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).​

The Old Way says:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).​

The Old Way says:

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).​

The Old Way says:

"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).​

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.​

The Old Way says:

20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?"
(John 8:4-5).​

The New Way (by Jesus) says:

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).​

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).​

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).​

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed within the Law.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

All the portions of Scripture you are referencing are dealing with trying to be justified by the Old Testament Law of Moses or Law Alone Salvationism (Without God's grace) because Paul was fighting against "Circumicision Salvationism." Paul is not referring to the Sanctification process via the Spirit (or works of faith) after being saved by God's grace. How can we know for sure?

Well, here are two facts in the Bible that proves this:

#1. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#2. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).​

Check out the verses for yourself; They are unmistakable (Unless of course you do not like what they say and thus: You are forced to do "backflip twist type explanations" on what they plainly say).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[bcbsr]

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

After we are saved? Your statement is a logical contradiction. You're saying after we are saved we have to do works to be saved. Which is it? Let's consider first part of your premise "After we are saved". how do you get into that state? Do you say it's really by God's grace alone, or do you mean that we must do works to get to that state?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

There are Two Kinds of Works in the Bible:

In Romans 4:4, when Paul says, "Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" Paul is referring to the denial of God's grace by a person thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved (Instead of being initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection - with us seeking His forgiveness) (To check out the apostle's fight against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism", see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21) (Note: Please hover your cursor over these verses so as to help you to see where I am coming from). Anyways, Paul is attacking "Works ALONE Salvationism" here (via "Circumcision Salvationism"), and he is not referring to the necessity of works of faith as a part of the salvation process (after they are saved by God's grace through faith).

There are TWO kinds of works:

#1. Works that are "Works Alone Salvationism." (Which is false).
(Like at a job: This is Works Alone To Earn Salvation or the Reward; Note: The Reward is Jesus Christ, for he is our prize.).

Romans 4:4 tells us that these kind of works are like the works that one does at a job. You do this work, and then you get paid (reward). The work is of debt and not out of grace.

Muslims believe in no grace by faith, and they believe in "Works Alone Salvationism" (Which is false). The pharisees were trying to deceive Christians into this kind of heresy by thinking they had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved and not by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.​

#2. Works that are "Works Faith" (Which is true) that plays a part in the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace.
(This is works of responsibility in owning a free gift).

I can receive a car as a free gift, but if I drive with a flat tire at tops speeds (ignoring general maintenance), or if I run red lights, drive drunk, and or hit pedestrians, it is highly possible that I will not have my free gift (a car) for very long. The same is true if a man considers his wife as a gift from the Lord (that he has prayed for). Does that mean that the man can cheat on his wife (who he regards as a free gift from God) with him expecting her to stay with him? No. The man has to put forth works of responsibility in showing that he is faithful and loving towards her to maintain that relationship (Which is a gift from God). Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works. Verse 9 would be wrongfully saved by Works ALONE. For verse 9 is referring to Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism because they are the kind of works that a man would boast about. Ephesians 2:10 is talking about God directed works done through the believer because they talk about the necessity of works that should follow. So Paul here is fighting against "Works ALONE Salvationism." We are saved by God's grace (Who is Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is the gift. He is our prized possession in these vessels of clay jars we call our bodies. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Thank God for His unspeakable gift (Who is Jesus - who is the source of our salvation) (See 1 John 5:12). But those believers out there who think that all is required for salvation is a belief alone set themselves up for failure in the fact that they minimize the dangers of sin and how they can destroy their own souls (without even realizing it). For the OSAS or Belief Alone Proponent, falling away due to sin is not even possible for them. Therein lies the danger indeed.

There are "Works of Faith" that are a part of our faith (that plays a part in our salvation), and there are "Wrong Works" (Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace) that Paul argued against.​

So there are:

1. Works like at a Job (Works Alone in One Trying to Earn Salvation Alone) which is wrong.
2. Works of Responsibility as a part of our Faith (in owning a Free Gift, God's grace, who is Jesus Christ) which is correct.​

Two entirely different kinds of works here.

It is my prayer, that those who are honest with themselves in the Belief Alone Camp will relook at these Scripture verses we have put forth today and maybe reconsider that what they have been told was not exactly true.

Peace, and blessings to you all in the Lord today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

After we are saved? Your statement is a logical contradiction. You're saying after we are saved we have to do works to be saved. Which is it? Let's consider first part of your premise "After we are saved". how do you get into that state? Do you say it's really by God's grace alone, or do you mean that we must do works to get to that state?

The Bible talks about salvation in the past tense (Justification, i.e. Saved by God's grace through Faith), salvation in the present tense (Justification and Sanctification; Note: Sanctification is holy living by the Holy Spirit), and salvation in the future tense (Glorification; Note: Glorification is being taken home to be with the Lord). Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (See: 1 John 5:12). For Christ alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So it is about abiding in Jesus (Who is the source of our eternal life) so that we can have life or salvation. How can we have an assurance in knowing the Lord (Who is our salvation)? 1 John 2:3 essentially says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, faith is an attitude. Works are things that you do. Attitudes are like "intention", "faith", "Hope", "trust". They're a person's disposition. Paul doesn't classify those as "works". Consider Rom 4:4,5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

If faith is works, as you say, then you end up with "However, to the man who does not work but works God who justifies the wicked, his work is credited as righteousness."

I guess that's how faith-in-works Christians read the Bible.

Faith is more than just believing in the person of Jesus Christ; Faith is about also believing in the teachings of Jesus Christ, too. This would include the many commands given to us by Jesus and His followers (Note: See John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 Corinthians 16:22, and 1 Corinthians 14:37). For Jesus even said, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' if you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46). For on Earth do you think certain believers who did wonderful works were told to depart from Jesus in Matthew 7:23? It was because Jesus said that they worked "iniquity" or "lawlessness." So yeah, they did good works, but they also worked iniquity, sin, or lawlessness, too. This is why Jesus said He never knew them. For one has to obey Christ's commandments so as to know Him (Again see: 1 John 2:3-4).

 

[TheSeabass]

The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

"Works of the law" in the Galatian Epistle refers to works required under the law of Moses and does not refer to all works of all kinds. In the context of Galatians, false Judiazing teachers had convinced some Christians in Galatia they could not be saved unless they keep the law of Moses and those false teachers led those Christians away from the gospel..."I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

Paul points out to those in Galatia that had left the gospel to find righteousness under the law of Moses "...if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Gal 2:21. If the law of Moses could make one completely righteous before God with the blood of bulls and goats then there would have been no need for Christ to die and shed His blood.

Since they had quit following the gospel, Paul said of them "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth (gospel of Christ)" Gal 3:1

Gal 3:3 "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

"Begun in the Spirit" refers to the NT gospel and being born again by Spirit and water.

"by the flesh" refers to the law of Moses for under that law one could only be justified by one's work in keeping that law perfectly, which they could not do. Paul's point being....why have you left the NT gospel (fallen from grace, Gal 5:4) that can justify you by an obedient faith and go back to the law of Moses that requires the work of perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified.

Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Again, the law of Moses required the work of flawless, perfect law keeping in order to be justified and none could keep it perfectly therefore 'no man is justified by the law in the sight of God'.

Gal 3:12 "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."
With only the blood of bulls and goats that could NOT away sin, then faith could not justify under the law but it took perfect, flawless law keeping under the law of Moses to be justified. Paul says in verse 10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." Again, under the law of Moses to be justified all that matter is what you did and that law required that you keep ALL THINGS written in the law, to DO them, (Leviticus 18:5). Just one sin would bring the curse of the law upon you hence faith did not matter, do the law perfectly and live. Gal 5:3 "... to every man that is circumcised (tries to be justified by the law of Moses), that he is a debtor to do the whole law."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

After we are saved? Your statement is a logical contradiction. You're saying after we are saved we have to do works to be saved. Which is it? Let's consider first part of your premise "After we are saved". how do you get into that state? Do you say it's really by God's grace alone, or do you mean that we must do works to get to that state?

Also, please try to explain some of the verses in my list within post #48. For why would there be so many verses that appear to teach a loss of salvation by our disobedience if things are as you say?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@bcbsr:

By what you said so far, you believe that you are saved by a belief alone in Jesus. This essentially means that you believe that the grace of God teaches that we can sin and still be saved. But Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@bcbsr:

Please watch this entire video. It was by far the most eye opening video to help explain what Paul is talking about when it comes to works.

 

[bcbsr]

@bcbsr:
By what you said so far, you believe that you are saved by a belief alone in Jesus. This essentially means that you believe that the grace of God teaches that we can sin and still be saved.

From time to time do you commit sin? When you commit a sin do you lose your salvation? Between the time when you sinned and you repented if you were to die, would you go to hell?

Those who have been qualified to be saved by faith in Christ alone are born of God. And as such are incapable of living in sin. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 and such is not a cause of their salvation, but an indication that such people have been saved and how they can be distinguished from children of the devil among the "Christian" community "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10

It is no surprise that those "Christians" who don't believe the gospel find this inconceivable, and rather misconstrue such verses as they do many other verses as affirming their salvation by works soteriology, this thread itself containing multiple examples of such. Such people who oppose the gospel continue to sin in their unbelief, if not in other ways they simply overlook.

While those born of God don't live in sin, they will sin from time to time in the aorist sense. Christ takes care of the aorist sins committed by those born of God "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin (aorist tense). But if anybody does sin (aorist tense), we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense— Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1John 2:1,2

For detailed technical study of 1John see the link.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’ve heard certain people teach that we are saved by “these” works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not “those” works (works of the law) in order to get around certain passages of scripture, such as Romans 4:5,6; Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

However, that argument is problematic. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith/work of obedience,” yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

Paul clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). He did not say saved through faith and works. In verse 10, Paul went on to say that we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Elsewhere, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Paul also said that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9). Paul NEVER said that we are saved by faith and works.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. One can see that Jesus was making changes in the Law even before the New Covenant officially went into effect with His physical death upon the cross. Obviously one can see similar commands between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, but (with the exception of the author of Hebrews) that does not mean that Paul was referring to the "law" in general in the majority of his letters. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed and it does not say it has been abrogated. Jesus said He came not to destroy the Law but He came to fulfill it. This means that Jesus came not to eradicate all forms of Law, but He came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose by laws or commands within the New Covenant. These commands focus more on loving God and loving your neighbor (and it would not be a focus on all the ceremonial laws, and judicial laws, destroying your enemies, etc.).

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation" (See Ephesians 2:1, and Ephesians 3:17). For gifts are received one time (initial salvation) and they are not continually received on a daily basis. Verse 9 (Ephesians 2:9) is dealing with "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" because they are the kind of works that a man would boast in doing. But if these were the works of God done through the believer, a believer would not boast in themselves by such works, but they would boast and give praise to God instead. Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) referrs to a different kind of works. These are God directed works done through the believer because it says that these are the kind of works that we are created in Christ Jesus to do, and that we SHOULD (not maybe) walk in them.

As for your statement that Paul never said that we are never saved by faith + works:

While Paul did not use those words exactly, he did say this using other words.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4) (Note: See how James describes the proud in James 4:6).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22) (Note: See how Jesus defines love in John 14:15, and John 15:10).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From time to time do you commit sin? When you commit a sin do you lose your salvation? Between the time when you sinned and you repented if you were to die, would you go to hell?

Those who have been qualified to be saved by faith in Christ alone are born of God. And as such are incapable of living in sin. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 and such is not a cause of their salvation, but an indication that such people have been saved and how they can be distinguished from children of the devil among the "Christian" community "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10

It is no surprise that those "Christians" who don't believe the gospel find this inconceivable, and rather misconstrue such verses as they do many other verses as affirming their salvation by works soteriology, this thread itself containing multiple examples of such. Such people who oppose the gospel continue to sin in their unbelief, if not in other ways they simply overlook.

While those born of God don't live in sin, they will sin from time to time in the aorist sense. Christ takes care of the aorist sins committed by those born of God "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin (aorist tense). But if anybody does sin (aorist tense), we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense— Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1John 2:1,2

For detailed technical study of 1John see the link.

What do you think happened in the Garden of Eden?
They died spiritually by disobeying God's command.
Fear fell upon the church when they heard that Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Ghost.
Now why would the body of believers experience fear if they knew that Ananais and Sapphira were safely in the arms of Jesus? It makes no sense. If they were unbelievers, why would they be afraid? Again, it makes no sense. The only logical reason they would experience fear is if a similar thing could happen to them with another kind of grievous sin.

We already been over 1 John 2 before. But if you are breaking just even one of God's commands that are essential to keeping as a part of eternal life, and you say that you are generally keeping most of them, that is not going to work with the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember, in Matthew 7, Jesus says to certain believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or lawlessness. So just doing good works does not mean anything if one is also sinning or committing iniquity (even on a small level). Jesus said in Matthew 5:28-30 that if one looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can be cast into hell fire. Jesus did not say that you have to keep doing this habitually in order to be cast into hell fire. Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven in Matthew 6:15. God can condemn us if we die in the unrepentant sin of unforgiveness based on this verse. Nothing is said that we have to keep doing it in order to be condemned. Your view of being in sin is a dangerous game to play. Where does one draw line at habitual sin? Who gets to define it? You?

Besides, you are essentially saying that we are saved by works if you are proposing that we cannot habitually live in sin according to 1 John 2 and 1 John 3. So you are contradicting yourself. You are saying that a certain level or standard of holiness is needed as a part of identifying true saved believers (Which means that living holy on some level is required as a part of the salvation process).

Side Note:

Oh, and I already seen your commentary long ago when you mentioned it in another thread. I read some of it and it is totally false. The many portions of Scripture I posted in my last several posts to your prove that this is the case. You cannot make an argument for a belief based on just one part of Scripture but you have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. If you believe otherwise, I challenge you to address the verses I brought forth.

 

[bcbsr]

Besides, you are essentially saying that we are saved by works if you are proposing that we need to not habitually live in sin according to 1 John 2 and 1 John 3. So you are contradicting yourself. You are saying that a certain level or standard of holiness is needed as a part of identifying true saved believers (Which means that living holy on some level is required as a part of the salvation process)..

I didn't claim what you allege. I didn't claim that a person needs to not habitually live in sin in order to be saved. I claim, as 1John indicates, that those who are saved don't habitually sin. Any rational person can understand the difference. Furthermore the effect of salvation is not the cause of salvation. I will not insult your intelligence by assuming you can't distinguish between the concept of cause and effect. So don't insult my intelligence by claiming that that the effect of salvation which results in evidence of one's salvation status is the same as the cause of salvation. You bear false witness against me claiming that I'm contradicting myself. (Bearing false witness, is that a sin. If so have you lost your salvation or do you simply overlook your sins?)