The third temple - Should Christians support this initiative ?

[Hammster]

The verse quotes Nations and tongues or languages.

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm

All nations surrounded me;
In the name of the LORD I will surely cut them off.
— Psalm 118:10

I’m sure that wasn’t every single nation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

All nations surrounded me;
In the name of the LORD I will surely cut them off.
— Psalm 118:10

I’m sure that wasn’t every single nation.

The narrative in Revelation concerning judgement is a different issue.

The redeemed will be from every language.

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes

 

[Hammster]

The narrative in Revelation concerning judgement is a different issue.

The redeemed will be from every language.

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes

And the original audience would have viewed it as David did.

 

[lismore]

Torah centric 'Christian teaching' is quite strong and the notion that both covenants are active is very appealing.

Hello! Regarding 'both', aren't there more than two covenants in the bible? At least seven? Here are some:

God's Covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15, mentioning all the land from Egypt to the Euphrates as belonging to his descendants.
In Deuteronomy 30 there's a Covenant of Restoration for the Jews to the land of Israel.
The Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 19-24)
The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-40)

The Abrahamic Covenant clearly is still active, as is the land Covenant and definitely the New Covenant. Which are you meaning by both?

Here are the terms of the New Covenant:

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
35 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.” 37 This is what the Lord says:
“Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord.
38 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”

The terms of the New Covenant end with a specific Geographical promise regarding the physical city of Jerusalem.

God Bless

 

[Carl Emerson]

And the original audience would have viewed it as David did.

How they viewed it and what God was saying for all time can be different. John was inspired to write about matters way beyond the common thinking of the time.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello! Regarding 'both', aren't there more than two covenants in the bible? At least seven? Here are some:

God's Covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15, mentioning all the land from Egypt to the Euphrates as belonging to his descendants.
In Deuteronomy 30 there's a Covenant of Restoration for the Jews to the land of Israel.
The Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 19-24)
The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-40)

The Abrahamic Covenant clearly is still active, as is the land Covenant and definitely the New Covenant. Which are you meaning by both?

Here are the terms of the New Covenant:

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
35 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.” 37 This is what the Lord says:
“Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord.
38 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”

The terms of the New Covenant end with a specific Geographical promise regarding the physical city of Jerusalem.

God Bless

Do you think this is a reference to the New Jerusalem or the current one ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello! Regarding 'both', aren't there more than two covenants in the bible? At least seven? Here are some:

God's Covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15, mentioning all the land from Egypt to the Euphrates as belonging to his descendants.
In Deuteronomy 30 there's a Covenant of Restoration for the Jews to the land of Israel.
The Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 19-24)
The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-40)

The Abrahamic Covenant clearly is still active, as is the land Covenant and definitely the New Covenant. Which are you meaning by both?

Here are the terms of the New Covenant:

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
35 This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will Israel ever cease
being a nation before me.” 37 This is what the Lord says:
“Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord.
38 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”

The terms of the New Covenant end with a specific Geographical promise regarding the physical city of Jerusalem.

God Bless

This covenant is the covenant for all of God's chosen through our Father of the Faith - Abraham.

When it was ratified through Jesus the seed, it became the "New Covenant" that Jeremiah spoke of.

The covenant under the law with the Nation of Israel ceased at the Cross, when God ripped the temple vail.

 

[Hammster]

How they viewed it and what God was saying for all time can be different. John was inspired to write about matters way beyond the common thinking of the time.

Not really. John was writing for a particular audience. He had a message for them. So he wrote in a manner that they would understand. That’s how hermeneutics works.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not really. John was writing for a particular audience. He had a message for them. So he wrote in a manner that they would understand. That’s how hermeneutics works.

We differ on the nature of scripture - the understanding of the first audience should not negate future generations understanding issues that relate to their time in History.

 

[lismore]

Do you think this is a reference to the New Jerusalem or the current one ?

Hello! I would submit that the answer to your question can be seen in that the description of the Jerusalem in Jeremiah chapter 31 is different from the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation chapter 21.

This covenant is the covenant for all of God's chosen through our Father of the Faith - Abraham.

When it was ratified through Jesus the seed, it became the "New Covenant" that Jeremiah spoke of.

The covenant under the law with the Nation of Israel ceased at the Cross, when God ripped the temple vail.

There are aspects to the Covenants which have not yet been fulfilled and perhaps cannot be fulfilled by the church alone:

Genesis 15: 18-21 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

Israel has not yet reached that Geographical extent, nor would the church being confined to the land between Egypt and the Euphrates make any logical sense. God Bless You

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello! I would submit that the answer to your question can be seen in that the description of the Jerusalem in Jeremiah chapter 31 is different from the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation chapter 21.


There are aspects to the Covenants which have not yet been fulfilled and perhaps cannot be fulfilled by the church alone:

Genesis 15: 18-21 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

Israel has not yet reached that Geographical extent, nor would the church being confined to the land between Egypt and the Euphrates make any logical sense. God Bless You

Thanks for your comments.

When in Israel, as a gentile I felt I belonged, as I assumed the land was part of the Abraham promise to every believer in faith.

Also as an aside I was very impressed to se a major artwork by a Jew on Kibbutz who had depicted the New Jerusalem desending from heaven. This is part of Jewish expectations.

Given that a new heavens and new earth are spoken about in scripture, we need to be careful to understand if references to the land are before or after this event.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Judaism is not anti-Christ.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Jesus spoke of the synagog of Satan, and His life was taken at their request.

Further - Modern Judaism rejects Jesus in the same way.

 

[Hammster]

We differ on the nature of scripture - the understanding of the first audience should not negate future generations understanding issues that relate to their time in History.

If that’s the case, then you can make it say whatever you want and the author’s intent is irrelevant.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If that’s the case, then you can make it say whatever you want and the author’s intent is irrelevant.

Who said that ???

The author is God and He can use Scripture as He desires.

Circumstances can repeat in history and the same Scripture can convey an accurate outcome in different seasons of time.

 

[lismore]

Thanks for your comments.

When in Israel, as a gentile I felt I belonged, as I assumed the land was part of the Abraham promise to every believer in faith.

Also as an aside I was very impressed to se a major artwork by a Jew on Kibbutz who had depicted the New Jerusalem desending from heaven. This is part of Jewish expectations.

Given that a new heavens and new earth are spoken about in scripture, we need to be careful to understand if references to the land are before or after this event.

Hello! So, carefully speaking, do you think this is a reference to the New Heavens and the New Earth or the current one?


Jeremiah 1: 31 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

2 This is what the Lord says:

“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”
3 The Lord appeared to us in the past,[a] saying:

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
4 I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
‘Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the Lord our God.’”
7 This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
‘Lord, save your people,
the remnant of Israel.’
8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’

God Bless

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello! So, carefully speaking, do you think this is a reference to the New Heavens and the New Earth or the current one?


Jeremiah 1: 31 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

2 This is what the Lord says:

“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”
3 The Lord appeared to us in the past,[a] saying:

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
4 I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
‘Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the Lord our God.’”
7 This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
‘Lord, save your people,
the remnant of Israel.’
8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’

God Bless

Yes we see this in this age - the issue is though that present day Israel is still rejecting their Messiah and in that sense is anti-Christ.

This is due to the influence of present day Judaism and deep pride in themselves.

So if the third temple is built and the present spiritual climate prevails in Israel, it will be an abomination possibly even interfaith unless the long awaited revival comes among Jews.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

In Jewish terms that's like saying, who is a liar but he who denies that the Savior is the Messiah. If you asked a Jew if the Savor is the Messiah, they'd agree with you.
Who is the antichrist but he who denies the Father... The Jews don't.
And who denies the Son. In the Jew's mind, the Messiah is the Son of David. That is who we call Jesus.

You are mistaken in using that scripture against the Jews to wrongly judge them. You know, po-tate-oes / po-tot-oes. Still talking about the same Savior.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world,

The Jews are not out into the world, those who are, don't know God at all and engage in various kinds of wickedness, but even other non-Jews or non-Christians of the world are capable of moral goodness toward other people. Not all lie or deceive, etc.

I'm just pointing out that your generalizations are stretching the text to refer to your particular target at this time. Generalizations can be convenient that way. The Pharisees did the same thing concerning Jesus in order to justify crucifying him.

John was specifically referring to those within the body of believers who deceive believers then went out into the world. In order to go out, they had to first be in.

2 Jn.1:7 is not identifying Jews. John nor any other Messianic Jew in the New Testament ever vilified their fellow ethnic group. Paul said specifically "..do not become a stumbling block [or offend], whether to Jews, or to Gentiles [unsaved], or to the Church". (1Cor.10:32).

Again you're misapplying another verse.

those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The Jews are looking for their Messiah to come in the flesh and deliver them from oppression of nations. Again, po-tate-oes / po-tot-oes. Still talking about the same Savior.

The Jews are blind, not ungodly.

Jesus spoke of the synagog of Satan, and His life was taken at their request.

Where did Jesus speak of the synagog of satan?

Jesus was crucified on the re-interpreting of the Old Testament scripture by the Pharisees that anyone who promotes a false god must be stoned. They falsely accused Jesus of religious crimes. They also did concerning Stephen in Acts. Saul of Tarsis/[the apostle Paul] before his conversion was heavily active in that.

The twelve Jewish disciples believed that Jesus is the Messiah-Christ and became Messianic Jews and apostles unto all believers. Plus 3,000 Jews got saved on the day of Pentecost. Plus more over time.

The Jews who don't accept Jesus on account of semantics.. or on account of mistreatment by Christians are not anti-Messiah/Christ.

Further - Modern Judaism rejects Jesus in the same way.

As I have been saying.. The Jews blindly reject the Christ Jesus of the Gentiles. The way that the Gentiles perform their religious beliefs.. I've heard Messianic Jews testify to another Messianic Jew that they had thought that Jesus was a Gentile. It was a shock to them to learn that Jesus is a Jew.

They have false information about Jesus. They've been greatly mistreated by Christians.. No wonder they don't accept him.

They don't reject the coming Messiah of Jewish descent.
If you saw them as godly but following a different yet orthodox denominational theology than yours, I don't think you'd so quickly vilify them as totally anti-christ as you do.

 

[Carl Emerson]

In Jewish terms that's like saying, who is a liar but he who denies that the Savior is the Messiah.

Nonsense they all know who Jesus was and what he claimed.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Jews are not out into the world, those who are, don't know God at all and engage in various kinds of wickedness, but even other non-Jews or non-Christians of the world are capable of moral goodness toward other people. Not all lie or deceive, etc.

the reference is to false teachers.

 

[Carl Emerson]

John nor any other Messianic Jew in the New Testament ever vilified their fellow ethnic group.

Nor do I vilify an ethnic group - I make this clear in the OP.

It isn't about the Jews but the religion of Judaism which clearly rejects Christ as Messiah.

This false religion wants to build the third temple and reinstate animal sacrifice.