The soul/spirit that departs at death

[BobRyan]

this is my recent post on another thread - in response to a somewhat off-topic post there. So here it is "on topic".


SDAs believe:

Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ps 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Eccl 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

John 11:
1 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

 

[BobRyan]

Notice it is "our friend" that sleeps in the case of Lazarus. That which makes him "him" is what is dormant.

 

[BobRyan]

in 1 Thess 4 "Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" are later called "the dead in Christ"

 

[SarahsKnight]

1 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Yeahhhhh, but, you know, our traditionalist friends expect us to believe that this automatically, unquestionably, means just Lazarus' useless husk of a body is lying around and thus it only looks like he's sleeping, while the real Lazarus is totally alive and well somewhere out in another, spiritual realm.

 

[trophy33]

Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.
J 6:58

We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:8

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
1 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Yeahhhhh, but, you know, our traditionalists friends expect us to believe that this automatically, unquestionably, means just Lazarus' useless husk of a body is lying around and thus it only looks like he's sleeping, while the real Lazarus is totally alive and well somewhere out in another, spiritual realm.

You make a good point. The text does not say "I go to wake IT up" as if speaking of the decaying corpse rather than "the person", "the friend".

Jesus points to the person, the friend, the "HE" who is the friend - being wakened. His statement is not limited to the "IT", the decaying-back-to-dust corpse.

 

[BobRyan]

Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.
J 6:58

We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2Cor 5:8

Notice that 2 Cor 5:8 does not say "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord". (-- Even though we could say that from the perspective of the saint who dies - at the moment of death they are instantly at the resurrection of the righteous and get the new immortal body of 1 Cor 15 at Christ's appearing.)

1 Thess 4:13-18 says "And so shall we ever be WITH the Lord" - meaning that "in this way" - because of that future resurrection - we are to be "with" the Lord.

2 Cor 5 - identifies THREE states of the person

1. IN the decaying tent of this earthly body vs 1
2. Unclothed with no body attached at all - vs 3-4
3. Clothed in the resurrected immortal body (already discussed in 1 Cor 15). vs 2

Paul says in 2Cor 5 that we do not desire that intermediate state where we no longer are clothed in "this decaying tent" -- and yet we do not yet have the immortal resurrected body of 1 Cor 15 - which we get at Christ's appearing.

 

[trophy33]

Notice that 2 Cor 5:8 does not say "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord". (-- Even though we could say that from the perspective of the saint who dies - at the moment of death they are instantly at the resurrection of the righteous and get the new immortal body of 1 Cor 15 at Christ's appearing.)

I do not think your explanation makes sense.

There would be no point in what Paul writes if he did not believe that after his body dies, he is going to heaven.

 

[trophy33]

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Phil 1:21

 

[BobRyan]

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
Phil 1:21

That statement by Paul about "being with Christ" is explained BY Paul in 1 Cor 15 and specifically in
1 Thess 4:13-18 where he informs us "and in this way will we ever be WITH the Lord" -- in the way described in 1 Cor 15 and 1Thess 4.

So no doubt that from the POV of the one who dies - it does appear that they are instantly in the presence of Christ (at the 1 Cor 15 appearing of Christ, which is the same as the 1 Thess 4:13-18 appearing of Christ) - just as Paul says in Phil 1 -- but it happens according to the much more detailed explanation of that process that Paul provides in 1 Cor 15, and 1Thess 4.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not think your explanation makes sense.

There would be no point in what Paul writes if he did not believe that after his body dies, he is going to heaven.

Paul says he is most certainly going to have an immortal heavenly body after he dies in 2 Cor 5.

But what you propose is 3 bodies given to each person and Paul only allows for 2. This current decaying body and the immortal body given to us as 1 Cor 15, and 2 Cor 5 state

only TWO bodies according to 2 Cor 5
2Cor 5:
For we know that if our earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed, in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 since in fact after putting it on, we will not be found naked. 4 For indeed, we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave us the Spirit as a pledge.

only TWO bodies according to 1 Cor 15.
1 Cor 15:
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of mankind, another flesh of animals, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written: “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy one, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly one, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written: “Death has been swallowed up in victory. 55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

=======================

Both 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 say
1. Only two bodies - not three
2. Second body is immortal, eternal, heavenly
3. Second body is received when death is swallowed up
4. AT "The last Trumpet" - the one we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Matt 24:29-31

 

[trophy33]

That statement by Paul about "being with Christ" is explained BY Paul in 1 Cor 15 and specifically in
1 Thess 4:13-18 where he informs us "and in this way will we ever be WITH the Lord" -- in the way described in 1 Cor 15 and 1Thess 4.

So no doubt that from the POV of the one who dies - it does appear that they are instantly in the presence of Christ (at the 1 Cor 15 appearing of Christ, which is the same as the 1 Thess 4:13-18 appearing of Christ) - just as Paul says in Phil 1 -- but it happens according to the much more detailed explanation of that process that Paul provides in 1 Cor 15, and 1Thess 4.

Again, your explanation does not make sense regarding the text of Paul. He is not talking about any appearance or illusion of quickness.

He is saying that his departure from body is better, because he would be with Christ, but to stay in body is more useful for churches.

 

[Andrewn]

this is my recent post on another thread - in response to a somewhat off-topic post there. So here it is "on topic". SDAs believe:

We all believe these biblical verses but we understand them differently. I will not go around this block again, you and I have recently had a discussion about the issue. All I will do is remind you that in the Bible, the soul and the spirit are different. You may have evidence that the soul remains in some sort of sleep but the spirit is clearly conscious.

Function of the soul

If you're interested in the truth, you can look up in the Bible the occurrences of "spirit" when it refers to humans. I will say no more.

 

[BobRyan]

You may have evidence that the soul remains in some sort of sleep but the spirit is clearly conscious.

Not text says "While you sleep you are conscious". But you are free to quote one if you find it.

In the Bible it is the person "who" sleeps. There is no "Soul without the spirit" text and no "spirit without the soul" text and no "spirit awake while soul is asleep" text. But if someone had one - it sure would help that POV - I suppose we can all agree on that point.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, your explanation does not make sense regarding the text of Paul. He is not talking about any appearance or illusion of quickness.

2 Cor 5:1-3 Paul says he does NOT desire that state between between being in this decaying tent - and being clothed in the new immortal body of 1 Cor 15 at Christ's appearing and resurrection of the saints.

In Phil 1 - we wants to depart AND BE WITH the Lord. In 1Thess 4:13-18 "And in this way (the future resurrection) we shall be WITH the LORD"

In Matt 22 Jesus points out that proof of the future resurrection is that God is not the God of the dead and the only way to say God IS the god of a dead person is via the future resurrection.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yeahhhhh, but, you know, our traditionalists friends expect us to believe that this automatically, unquestionably, means just Lazarus' useless husk of a body is lying around and thus it only looks like he's sleeping, while the real Lazarus is totally alive and well somewhere out in another, spiritual realm.

It's not mutually exclusive. Lazarus wasn't a soul floating in a body, or a body that had a soul. He was a human being. His body was as much him as the soul.

When I die my body will be in the grave, but that's still me. When I die, even though my body sleeps in the dust of the earth, I will nevertheless be present with the Lord. These are not mutually exclusive statements.

Was Jesus in the tomb for three days? Yes.
Was Jesus descended into Hades? Yes.

Again, not mutually exclusive statements.

Traditionalists believe, teach, and confess the resurrection and the redemption of the entire human person: body and soul. As St. Gregory Nazianzus reminds us that by His Incarnation Christ has redeemed the whole of man, not just part, writing, "Whatever is not assumed is not healed", and to deny the redemption of any part of our humanity is a deprivation of what salvation truly means.

Soul sleep has never been the teaching of the Church. And, likewise, an eternity "in heaven" as disembodied spirits has never been the teaching of the Church. The Christian Church has, since the beginning, believed that our hope in Christ is the future resurrection of the body and the life of the Age to Come; and also that between bodily death and resurrection we shall spend that time at rest in the Lord's presence.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[trophy33]

2 Cor 5:1-3 Paul says he does NOT desire that state between between being in this decaying tent - and being clothed in the new immortal body of 1 Cor 15 at Christ's appearing and resurrection of the saints.

No, Paul is saying that after we die, we have prepared a new tent in heaven.

In Phil 1 - we wants to depart AND BE WITH the Lord. In 1Thess 4:13-18 "And in this way (the future resurrection) we shall be WITH the LORD"

Not sure why you stick these two verses together. Paul is talking about the return of Christ in 1Thess.

In Matt 22 Jesus points out that proof of the future resurrection is that God is not the God of the dead and the only way to say God IS the god of a dead person is via the future resurrection.

No, Jesus was just having an argument with a very special sect of Jews who did not believe in spirit, resurrection or angel. So He used arguments they would understand.

If you just read the context without trying to impute SDA views into it, you would see that its quite simple. Your agenda (the necessity to see the bible in one specific church way) hinders you from reading it neutrally and without inserting ideas into it.

 

[Hawkins]

this is my recent post on another thread - in response to a somewhat off-topic post there. So here it is "on topic".


SDAs believe:

Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ps 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Eccl 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

John 11:
1 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

No one is in Heaven yet. Jesus now is preparing the rooms for us.
The Second Curtain is opened at the time when Jesus was crucified. No one other than Jesus has entered through.

Revelation 15
5 After this I looked, and I saw in heaven the temple—that is, the tabernacle of the covenant law—and it was opened.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

Paradise is rather an extended Pharisaic concept and it's not equivalent to the concept of Heaven. While "temple" represents the dwelling place of God, which is closer to the concept of Heaven.

 

[Davy]

Paul says he is most certainly going to have an immortal heavenly body after he dies in 2 Cor 5.

But what you propose is 3 bodies given to each person and Paul only allows for 2. This current decaying body and the immortal body given to us as 1 Cor 15, and 2 Cor 5 state

only TWO bodies according to 2 Cor 5
....

You are letting SDA doctrines creep into your understanding on this. The 'dead in the ground' or 'soul sleep' doctrine, which is pretty much what you are pushing, is an old tradition of Judaism of the Jews. They stress the Genesis 2:7 creation of man becoming "a living soul", and wrongly attach the soul as being part of our flesh. It is not, as Jesus showed in Matthew 10:28 that the soul continues in life after death of our flesh body.

In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul does not have to... declare 3 parts to how God created us, because our spirit with soul is attached together while in our flesh body.

In Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, it shows at flesh death our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it. That 'spirit' is not just some natural force like the Jews think it is. It is about our spirit body, the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught that we have in the PRESENT TENSE. (Yes Paul did teach that idea in 1 Corinthians 15:44). And because Jesus showed our soul continues on also, this means our spirit and soul together go back to God.

And is this not what Apostle Peter revealed about Christ going to the "spirits in prison" at His resurrection, and preaching The Gospel to those who had died before, and even per 1 Peter 4, Peter says why... The Gospel was preached to those dead...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

So there's plenty enough Scripture evidence that when our flesh dies today, we do not lose awareness in our spirit-soul present in the heavenly dimension.

Not only that, but there's plenty of evidence of those who had near death experiences (NDEs), showing that we already have the "spiritual body" dwelling inside our flesh body, and that it can be separated from our flesh body. Ecclesiastes 12 showed this with mention of the "silver cord" being loosed at death. Thus there is a "silver cord" (whatever that is), that keeps our spirit attached to our flesh while alive on earth. And at flesh death that cord is separated, and our spirit body with soul inside our flesh goes back to God in the heavenly.

 

[Davy]

Another way to understand this is, that since there are TWO separate dimensions of existence, this earthly one and the heavenly one, our 'soul' needs a 'body' to manifest in.

In this earthly dimension our soul dwells in a flesh vehicle body.

But in the heavenly dimension, our soul dwells in a "spiritual body", the body which Apostle Paul taught we already have per the FIRST VERSE of 2 Corinthians 15.

So what exactly is that "spiritual body"? It is the "image of the heavenly", another name Apostle Paul called it in 1 Corinthians 15:48-49. That means that "spiritual body" is the OUTWARD LIKENESS for our person (soul) when in the heavenly dimension.

So is this "spiritual body" always immortal? NO! Lord Jesus revealed that in John 5:28-29 and in Revelation 20 about the "resurrection of damnation". The wicked dead will have that "spiritual body" too, which is the body type of the resurrection. But their souls will still be in a liable to die state, which Rev.20 calls the "second death". So those who keep pushing the falseness about the spirit body being an immortal body don't know what they're talking about, and have left the Scriptures.