The Snake in Eden is Probably Not the Devil

[Dale]

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Genesis 3:1-4 NIV


Most of us were taught as children that the snake in the Garden of Eden is the Devil. Few ideas are so well known. Yet Genesis says no such thing. If I ask why Christians believe that the snake is the Devil, people point me to Revelation.

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 12:9 NIV

If the snake in Genesis is supposed to be the Devil, why do we have to wait until Revelation, the last book of the Bible, to find that out? Revelation was written over a thousand years after Genesis. Revelation doesn't say anything about the serpent in Eden, it merely describes Satan as a serpent.

Jesus called King Herod a fox. This doesn't mean that Herod had a bushy tail and ran around on all fours raiding hen houses, it means that Herod was sly and deceptive. It looks like Revelation calling the Devil a serpent should be taken the same way.

31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”
32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
Luke 13:31-32 NIV

Even if the snake did mean the Devil in Genesis 3, that doesn't mean that snakes always mean demons in the Bible. Moses held up a bronze snake before the Israelites in the wilderness.

The Bronze Snake
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
Numbers 21: 5-9 NIV

Surely Moses did not mean to honor Satan by putting a bronze snake on a pole, to be seen by everyone in the camp of the Israelites. God would not tell Moses to do such a thing. The scripture specifically says that the snakes were sent by God, so they are not under the Devil's power.

This isn't just a piece of Old Testament trivia, it is referred to in the Gospels.

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
John 3: 14-15 NIV

This is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, just before John 3:16.

How should we look at the snake in Eden? The story of Adam, Eve and the expulsion from Eden is clearly a parable. The talking snake is a construct to move the story forward. That is why there are no talking snakes in the world today or anywhere else in the Bible. Since there were no other people around, a figure was invented to give bad advice to Eve.

 

[Mr. M]

Satan, or one of his ministers?

2 Corinthians 11:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds
should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.....

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers
of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[Dave G.]

Serpent is one translation. Shining one another. Really we could take your header and say the Devil or Satan in the garden wasn't a snake. And God said after the whole encounter you will be on your belly. Well if he was a snake before he would already have been on his belly.

 

[Dale]

Satan, or one of his ministers?

2 Corinthians 11:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds
should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.....

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers
of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

If Satan disguised himself as a snake to tempt Eve, God would not have punished all snakes by taking away their legs.

 

[Junia]

It is possible something got lost in translation. Liken the fact that unicorns in the Bible are actually what we would call Rhinoceros

 

[SeventyOne]

If Satan disguised himself as a snake to tempt Eve, God would not have punished all snakes by taking away their legs.

God did say that the dust would be the serpents food, and in Isaiah 65:25 shows that the serpent is still eating dust, but Satan isn't around at that time. So, if Satan was a component of the serpent in the Fall, he wasn't the sole component.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Genesis 3:1-4 NIV


Most of us were taught as children that the snake in the Garden of Eden is the Devil. Few ideas are so well known. Yet Genesis says no such thing. If I ask why Christians believe that the snake is the Devil, people point me to Revelation.

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 12:9 NIV

If the snake in Genesis is supposed to be the Devil, why do we have to wait until Revelation, the last book of the Bible, to find that out? Revelation was written over a thousand years after Genesis. Revelation doesn't say anything about the serpent in Eden, it merely describes Satan as a serpent.

Jesus called King Herod a fox. This doesn't mean that Herod had a bushy tail and ran around on all fours raiding hen houses, it means that Herod was sly and deceptive. It looks like Revelation calling the Devil a serpent should be taken the same way.

31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”
32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
Luke 13:31-32 NIV

Even if the snake did mean the Devil in Genesis 3, that doesn't mean that snakes always mean demons in the Bible. Moses held up a bronze snake before the Israelites in the wilderness.

The Bronze Snake
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
Numbers 21: 5-9 NIV

Surely Moses did not mean to honor Satan by putting a bronze snake on a pole, to be seen by everyone in the camp of the Israelites. God would not tell Moses to do such a thing. The scripture specifically says that the snakes were sent by God, so they are not under the Devil's power.

This isn't just a piece of Old Testament trivia, it is referred to in the Gospels.

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
John 3: 14-15 NIV

This is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, just before John 3:16.

How should we look at the snake in Eden? The story of Adam, Eve and the expulsion from Eden is clearly a parable. The talking snake is a construct to move the story forward. That is why there are no talking snakes in the world today or anywhere else in the Bible. Since there were no other people around, a figure was invented to give bad advice to Eve.

For me the scriptures are very clear on who the serpent represents in GENESIS 3 that tempted Eve and caused the fall of mankind and there is no need to guess....

REVELATION 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, THAT OLD SERPENT, CALLED THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

REVELATION 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, THAT OLD SERPENT, WHICH IS THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, and bound him a thousand years.

In reference to JOHN 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up. The scripture is not saying that JESUS is the serpent it is saying that JESUS will be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness.

JESUS here of course is referring back to...

NUMBERS 21:5-9
[5], And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loathes this light bread.
[6], And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
[7], Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
[8], And the LORD said to Moses, Make you a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks on it, shall live.
[9], And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it on a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The message here being that the Serpent the Devil has bitten us (tempted) with the venom of sin and if we do not look up to believe and follow God's Word that venom of sin will kill us. JESUS is to be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness. No where does it say that JESUS is the serpent represented in the garden of Eden. The scriptures define the Devil and Satan as being the serpent "Lifted up" like the serpent is a reference to JESUS taking all the venom (sins) of the world and dying on our behalf to all those who believe and follow his Word that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. The source of the venom (sin) is the serpent, the devil and Satan. The brazen serpent lifted up under God's direction had no venom (sin)

The reader will observe, 1st, That the grand point of similitude here is, in the manner of performing the cure, that is, by believing regards to what was lifted up, or put to death for our sins (venom)

For me the comparison between the serpent in the Garden, the venomous serpents in the wilderness, represent the devil, Satan as shown in the scriptuers from Revelation at the beginning of this post, and the fiery serpents in the wilderness with the poison venom of death representing the devil and sin and death while the brazen serpent representing Jesus (no venom and no sin) being lifted up on the pole (cross) and all those who by God's instruction look to him (believe God's Word) are saved from their sins (venom) and death. This ties into the scripture in ROMANS 8:3-4 [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hope this helps.

 

[plain jayne]

How should we look at the snake in Eden? The story of Adam, Eve and the expulsion from Eden is clearly a parable. The talking snake is a construct to move the story forward. That is why there are no talking snakes in the world today or anywhere else in the Bible. Since there were no other people around, a figure was invented to give bad advice to Eve.

I knew before I ever got to the bottom of your post that this rejection of the truth of Adam/Eve/the serpent as reality was where you were going.

Jesus believed Adam and Eve were real people created by God. Matthew 19:4-5

And.....I am 59 years old, know a LOT of people from a LOT of places....and have never heard of any Christian who believes that snakes are demons.

 

[Dale]

I knew before I ever got to the bottom of your post that this rejection of the truth of Adam/Eve/the serpent as reality was where you were going.

Jesus believed Adam and Eve were real people created by God. Matthew 19:4-5

And.....I am 59 years old, know a LOT of people from a LOT of places....and have never heard of any Christian who believes that snakes are demons.

Jayne: "And.....I am 59 years old, know a LOT of people from a LOT of places....and have never heard of any Christian who believes that snakes are demons."

It's not that anyone believes that snakes are demons, it's that many people believe that snakes always stand for demons in the Bible. Far too much importance is given to the snake in Eden.


Jayne: "Jesus believed Adam and Eve were real people created by God. Matthew 19:4-5"

That's not what Jesus actually said. In the Gospels, "Adam" is mentioned only in the genealogy in Luke and Eve is not mentioned at all. The word "Eden" doesn't appear in the Gospels either.

In Matthew 19, Jesus recalls God making "male and female," in the first creation account and then skips to the moral of the second creation account: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh." In the first creation account, God creates an uncertain number of men and women. Jesus skips over Adam, Eve and Eden to go to the moral admonition on marriage in the second account.

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
Matthew 19:4-5 NIV
a: Matthew 19:4 Gen. 1:27
b: Matthew 19:5 Gen. 2:24


So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
Genesis 1:27 NIV

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
Genesis 2:24 NIV

 

[Dale]

For me the scriptures are very clear on who the serpent represents in GENESIS 3 that tempted Eve and caused the fall of mankind and there is no need to guess....

REVELATION 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, THAT OLD SERPENT, CALLED THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

REVELATION 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, THAT OLD SERPENT, WHICH IS THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, and bound him a thousand years.

In reference to JOHN 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up. The scripture is not saying that JESUS is the serpent it is saying that JESUS will be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness.

JESUS here of course is referring back to...

NUMBERS 21:5-9
[5], And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loathes this light bread.
[6], And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
[7], Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against you; pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
[8], And the LORD said to Moses, Make you a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looks on it, shall live.
[9], And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it on a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The message here being that the Serpent the Devil has bitten us (tempted) with the venom of sin and if we do not look up to believe and follow God's Word that venom of sin will kill us. JESUS is to be lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness. No where does it say that JESUS is the serpent represented in the garden of Eden. The scriptures define the Devil and Satan as being the serpent "Lifted up" like the serpent is a reference to JESUS taking all the venom (sins) of the world and dying on our behalf to all those who believe and follow his Word that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. The source of the venom (sin) is the serpent, the devil and Satan. The brazen serpent lifted up under God's direction had no venom (sin)

The reader will observe, 1st, That the grand point of similitude here is, in the manner of performing the cure, that is, by believing regards to what was lifted up, or put to death for our sins (venom)

For me the comparison between the serpent in the Garden, the venomous serpents in the wilderness, represent the devil, Satan as shown in the scriptuers from Revelation at the beginning of this post, and the fiery serpents in the wilderness with the poison venom of death representing the devil and sin and death while the brazen serpent representing Jesus (no venom and no sin) being lifted up on the pole (cross) and all those who by God's instruction look to him (believe God's Word) are saved from their sins (venom) and death. This ties into the scripture in ROMANS 8:3-4 [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Hope this helps.

If you are disagreeing with what I said in the OP, I don't understand why.

 

[Bro.T--2]

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Genesis 3:1-4 NIV


Most of us were taught as children that the snake in the Garden of Eden is the Devil. Few ideas are so well known. Yet Genesis says no such thing. If I ask why Christians believe that the snake is the Devil, people point me to Revelation.

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 12:9 NIV

If the snake in Genesis is supposed to be the Devil, why do we have to wait until Revelation, the last book of the Bible, to find that out? Revelation was written over a thousand years after Genesis. Revelation doesn't say anything about the serpent in Eden, it merely describes Satan as a serpent.

Jesus called King Herod a fox. This doesn't mean that Herod had a bushy tail and ran around on all fours raiding hen houses, it means that Herod was sly and deceptive. It looks like Revelation calling the Devil a serpent should be taken the same way.

31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.”
32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
Luke 13:31-32 NIV

Even if the snake did mean the Devil in Genesis 3, that doesn't mean that snakes always mean demons in the Bible. Moses held up a bronze snake before the Israelites in the wilderness.

The Bronze Snake
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”
6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
Numbers 21: 5-9 NIV

Surely Moses did not mean to honor Satan by putting a bronze snake on a pole, to be seen by everyone in the camp of the Israelites. God would not tell Moses to do such a thing. The scripture specifically says that the snakes were sent by God, so they are not under the Devil's power.

This isn't just a piece of Old Testament trivia, it is referred to in the Gospels.

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
John 3: 14-15 NIV

This is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, just before John 3:16.

How should we look at the snake in Eden? The story of Adam, Eve and the expulsion from Eden is clearly a parable. The talking snake is a construct to move the story forward. That is why there are no talking snakes in the world today or anywhere else in the Bible. Since there were no other people around, a figure was invented to give bad advice to Eve.

Before Satan became known as the Devil, his name was Lucifer, which means light bearer. He was the Angel in charge of bringing God's truth. The prophet Isaiah asked this question of Lucifer, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?" (Isaiah 14:12)

The Prophet Ezekiel answers the question, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:12-15)

Even though Ezekiel refers to Lucifer as the King of Tyrus, this is not a natural man. Look at the attributes of this person. The anointed cherub (cherubs are angels), walking up and down in the stones of fire. Now what natural man can this fit?

What was the iniquity that was found in Lucifer? The prophet Isaiah answers that question. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” (Isaiah 14:13-15) Jesus says in Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.













As a direct result of Lucifer's iniquity, he was banished from heaven, stripped of the name Lucifer and cast down to the earth. "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground; I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” (Ezekiel 28:16-19)

 

[Dkh587]

Moses & the Israelites were not like us in their thinking - they wouldn’t read Genesis 3 and think a snake was talking to the humans.

they would read it and understand that it was a divine being talking to the humans.

 

[Dale]

Before Satan became known as the Devil, his name was Lucifer, which means light bearer. He was the Angel in charge of bringing God's truth. The prophet Isaiah asked this question of Lucifer, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?" (Isaiah 14:12)

The Prophet Ezekiel answers the question, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:12-15)

Even though Ezekiel refers to Lucifer as the King of Tyrus, this is not a natural man. Look at the attributes of this person. The anointed cherub (cherubs are angels), walking up and down in the stones of fire. Now what natural man can this fit?

What was the iniquity that was found in Lucifer? The prophet Isaiah answers that question. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” (Isaiah 14:13-15) Jesus says in Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.













As a direct result of Lucifer's iniquity, he was banished from heaven, stripped of the name Lucifer and cast down to the earth. "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground; I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” (Ezekiel 28:16-19)

Brother T, hello, since I don't think I have talked to you before. I'm not sure how your comments on Satan fit with my thread on the snake in Eden but I welcome all points of view. I am dubious that any of the passages you mention can be used to support a Fall of the Rebel Angels scenario.

For instance, you mention Luke chapter 10.

BroT: "Jesus says in Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

When you look at the context of this quote, the meaning changes completely. Jesus isn't discussing the origin of evil, the origin of sin or the origin of the Devil when He says this.

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
Luke 20:17-19 NIV

The context is that Jesus has sent out the seventy disciples on their mission and now they have returned. Jesus welcomes them back. When Jesus says that Satan fell from heaven, He isn't talking about where Satan came from. Jesus is telling the disciples that Satan crashed and burned while they were preaching. The purpose is to give a compliment to the ministry of the seventy disciples.

 

[plain jayne]

It's not that anyone believes that snakes are demons, it's that many people believe that snakes always stand for demons in the Bible. Far too much importance is given to the snake in Eden.

OK....I've also NEVER heard of anyone claiming that snakes stand for demons in the Bible. Never once. Not one time. You say that "many" believe that. I can only think of these citations of people encountering snakes in the Bible.

• the garden of eden
• the bronze serpent in the wilderness [and poisonous snakes]
• Paul being bitten by a snake

I never heard a commentary, sermon, Sunday School lesson, or personal opinion that these passage are about demons.

So who are these "many" people?

That's not what Jesus actually said. In the Gospels, "Adam" is mentioned only in the genealogy in Luke and Eve is not mentioned at all. The word "Eden" doesn't appear in the Gospels either.

That's exactly who Jesus was talking about - Adam and Eve.

They ARE mentioned later on, too. Paul mentions Adam as the man through which death came and Jesus as the man through whom life came.

And he mentions Eve and her being deceived by the serpent and his fear that the church at Corinth is going to be deceived the exact same way. He also teaches in one of the Timothy's - BOTH Adam and Eve as examples of the order of things.

The reason that Adam and Eve are not mentioned in Matthew's genealogy is that Matthew is speaking to Jews and Jews desperately needed to know Jesus Christ's credentials. That's why he started with Abraham FIRST and moved forward to Christ.

Luke is speaking to Gentiles. They needed to know that Jesus was God. That's why he starts WITH Jesus and goes BACKWARD to God. And since his genealogy cites no women at all, Eve is not mentioned.

If you don't believe Adam and Eve were literal people, then you don't believe in Cain and Abel? The tower of Babel? Noah? King David?

Where do the literal people start in the Bible for you?

 

[Petros2015]

The talking snake is a construct to move the story forward. That is why there are no talking snakes in the world today or anywhere else in the Bible.

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

Tiny DNA tweaks made snakes legless | Science | AAAS

We could un-tweak it I guess...
Maybe we get talking dragons...

 

[Hawkins]

Revelation 12:9 (NIV2011)
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation is final. To say otherwise is hardly biblical.

 

[Bro.T--2]

Brother T, hello, since I don't think I have talked to you before. I'm not sure how your comments on Satan fit with my thread on the snake in Eden but I welcome all points of view. I am dubious that any of the passages you mention can be used to support a Fall of the Rebel Angels scenario.

For instance, you mention Luke chapter 10.

BroT: "Jesus says in Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

When you look at the context of this quote, the meaning changes completely. Jesus isn't discussing the origin of evil, the origin of sin or the origin of the Devil when He says this.

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
Luke 20:17-19 NIV

The context is that Jesus has sent out the seventy disciples on their mission and now they have returned. Jesus welcomes them back. When Jesus says that Satan fell from heaven, He isn't talking about where Satan came from. Jesus is telling the disciples that Satan crashed and burned while they were preaching. The purpose is to give a compliment to the ministry of the seventy disciples.

Let's take another look at that verse Jesus says in Luke 10: 17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Jesus was making a point, that the power the apostle have through him, through the name of Jesus, It was Jesus who kick Satan out of heaven. Also this shows people who don't believe Jesus came from heaven, thats its written in the Bible. Some people think Jesus was just a prophet, not the son of God. Also this is before Revelation 12: 7-9, 12 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Therefore rejoice ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.” (Revelation 12:7-9, 12).

But maybe you're right, not the same point. Just another point of view.

 

[Dale]

Before Satan became known as the Devil, his name was Lucifer, which means light bearer. He was the Angel in charge of bringing God's truth. The prophet Isaiah asked this question of Lucifer, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?" (Isaiah 14:12)

The Prophet Ezekiel answers the question, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ezekiel 28:12-15)

Even though Ezekiel refers to Lucifer as the King of Tyrus, this is not a natural man. Look at the attributes of this person. The anointed cherub (cherubs are angels), walking up and down in the stones of fire. Now what natural man can this fit?

What was the iniquity that was found in Lucifer? The prophet Isaiah answers that question. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” (Isaiah 14:13-15) Jesus says in Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.













As a direct result of Lucifer's iniquity, he was banished from heaven, stripped of the name Lucifer and cast down to the earth. "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground; I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” (Ezekiel 28:16-19)

BroT: “ Even though Ezekiel refers to Lucifer as the King of Tyrus, this is not a natural man. Look at the attributes of this person. The anointed cherub (cherubs are angels), walking up and down in the stones of fire. Now what natural man can this fit?”



People are sometimes called angels today but it isn’t literal. The same goes for cherubs.

Have you noticed that cherubs in the Bible are almost always decorations? They are referred to over a dozen time in Exodus but always as decorations.

On building the Ark of the Covenant:

18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.
Exodus 25:18-20 NIV

Those cherubim are hammered from metal but there are also woven cherubim, still decorations.

“Make the tabernacle with ten curtains of finely twisted linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, with cherubim woven into them by a skilled worker.
Exodus 26:1 NIV

23 For the inner sanctuary he [Solomon] made a pair of cherubim out of olive wood, each ten cubits high. 24 One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. 25 The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape. 26 The height of each cherub was ten cubits. 27 He placed the cherubim inside the innermost room of the temple, with their wings spread out. The wing of one cherub touched one wall, while the wing of the other touched the other wall, and their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. 28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold.
29 On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers. 30 He also covered the floors of both the inner and outer rooms of the temple with gold.
I Kings 6: 23-39 NIV

There are other examples. The terms “cherub” and “cherubim” don’t always mean a wise angel.

 

[Bro.T--2]

BroT: “ Even though Ezekiel refers to Lucifer as the King of Tyrus, this is not a natural man. Look at the attributes of this person. The anointed cherub (cherubs are angels), walking up and down in the stones of fire. Now what natural man can this fit?”



People are sometimes called angels today but it isn’t literal. The same goes for cherubs.

Have you noticed that cherubs in the Bible are almost always decorations? They are referred to over a dozen time in Exodus but always as decorations.

On building the Ark of the Covenant:

18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.
Exodus 25:18-20 NIV

Those cherubim are hammered from metal but there are also woven cherubim, still decorations.

“Make the tabernacle with ten curtains of finely twisted linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, with cherubim woven into them by a skilled worker.
Exodus 26:1 NIV

23 For the inner sanctuary he [Solomon] made a pair of cherubim out of olive wood, each ten cubits high. 24 One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. 25 The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape. 26 The height of each cherub was ten cubits. 27 He placed the cherubim inside the innermost room of the temple, with their wings spread out. The wing of one cherub touched one wall, while the wing of the other touched the other wall, and their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. 28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold.
29 On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers. 30 He also covered the floors of both the inner and outer rooms of the temple with gold.
I Kings 6: 23-39 NIV

There are other examples. The terms “cherub” and “cherubim” don’t always mean a wise angel.

BroT: “ Even though Ezekiel refers to Lucifer as the King of Tyrus, this is not a natural man. Look at the attributes of this person. The anointed cherub (cherubs are angels), walking up and down in the stones of fire. Now what natural man can this fit?

I believe I point that out already, not sure how you miss that one.

Those cherubim are hammered from metal but there are also woven cherubim, still decorations.

They are not decoration, they represent the Lord's way. The Lord always have angels around him to do his bidding. Let's take a look at Genesis 3: 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. The tree of life is the Lord and these are real cherubims, the Lord put there to block them. Let's take a look in Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Now let's take a look in the future. Let's go in Matthew 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: So how absolute is all his angels. There's thousand of thousand upon thousands of angels coming with the Lord, so when you read about pictures angels drawing all over, its programming your mind what will be in the future, but in the third heaven where the Lord is right now, its like that. This is another example of the Lord's prayer in Matthew 5: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

 

[Dale]

Revelation 12:9 (NIV2011)
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation is final. To say otherwise is hardly biblical.

I'm not sure why we are talking about Revelation. I did not contradict Revelation.

Apparently you are saying that Revelation 12 proves that the snake in Eden is the Devil.

Let's take a look at this.

In Revelation 12:3, there is red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns. There is nothing like that in the Garden of Eden story. The dragon's tail sweeps a third of the stars in the sky (Revelation 12:4). Nothing like this happens in the Garden of Eden story, whether the stars are literal or figurative.

The dragon threatens a woman, who gives birth and flees to the wilderness for safety. (Revelation 12:4-6)

We are told that Satan, or the dragon, is leading "the whole world astray." (Revelation 12:9)

We are told that the Messiah has come (Revelation 12:10). Christians who are either martyrs or threatened with martyrdom have overcome by "the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 12:11)

None of these things happen before Eve talks to the snake in Genesis 2. At this time there is no world with millions of people to be led astray, no one fleeing to the wilderness for safety and we know that the Messiah has not yet come.

I don't see how anyone thinks I am contradicting Revelation by pointing out that Genesis never says that the snake is the Devil.

Is anyone really looking at what Genesis says or does everyone just believe what they have been told?