The Prodigal Returns.

[bmjackson]

Hi

I had been posting previously, and intending to become Orthodox but the obstacles seemed too much. Visits to the local (15 miles away) OC did not go well as the Archpriest was not welcoming after speaking to me during a visit. He said that he always had a good sense if the enquirer was going to 'make it' so I guess that was what he thought.

After some conversations here, I sort of gave up and tried to fit back into Protestantism even though I had long since left it mentally. I not longer held to the tenets like sola scriptura and thought it had gone astray after the Reformation especially after reading George Fox of the early Quakers. It should have returned to EO at that point.

I thought that I was too old to make the huge change and I also had it in mind to move back to my birth-town but that has not gone well.

A recent event made my mind up for me and now I am going to go ahead and start attending the EO church even though it means a bit of driving though I am considering finding a hotel for the night before.

So I am inviting knowledgeable Orthodox members here to help me find what I was drawn to at the beginning of my search, which is Mystical Spirituality, of which I had found in Fox and less so in Wesley, who only partially understood the Early Fathers on this imo.

It is the teaching on Theosis and the Via Triplex or the three stages man goes though before he is fully united with Christ. This is what I am searching for and will not rest till I can find others on that journey, so please do not join in if you say that sanctification is gradual and we never reach perfection in this life.

I wondered if I should join the RCC as there is a lovely retreat of theirs nearby, but I don't agree with so much of their dogma.

Thank you.

 

[lmchristy]

Hi

I had been posting previously, and intending to become Orthodox but the obstacles seemed too much. Visits to the local (15 miles away) OC did not go well as the Archpriest was not welcoming after speaking to me during a visit. He said that he always had a good sense if the enquirer was going to 'make it' so I guess that was what he thought.

After some conversations here, I sort of gave up and tried to fit back into Protestantism even though I had long since left it mentally. I not longer held to the tenets like sola scriptura and thought it had gone astray after the Reformation especially after reading George Fox of the early Quakers. It should have returned to EO at that point.

I thought that I was too old to make the huge change and I also had it in mind to move back to my birth-town but that has not gone well.

A recent event made my mind up for me and now I am going to go ahead and start attending the EO church even though it means a bit of driving though I am considering finding a hotel for the night before.

So I am inviting knowledgeable Orthodox members here to help me find what I was drawn to at the beginning of my search, which is Mystical Spirituality, of which I had found in Fox and less so in Wesley, who only partially understood the Early Fathers on this imo.

It is the teaching on Theosis and the Via Triplex or the three stages man goes though before he is fully united with Christ. This is what I am searching for and will not rest till I can find others on that journey, so please do not join in if you say that sanctification is gradual and we never reach perfection in this life.

I wondered if I should join the RCC as there is a lovely retreat of theirs nearby, but I don't agree with so much of their dogma.

Thank you.

Since your expressed interest is in mystical spirituality within Orthodoxy, you may find value in these links:

An Introduction to Orthodox Spirituality - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

An Introduction to Orthodox Spirituality - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of...​ The sources of Orthodox spirituality are the Holy Scriptures, sacred Tradition, the dogmatic definitions of the ...

(PDF) The Mystical Tradition of the Eastern Church Studies in Patristics, Liturgy, and Practice GORGIAS PRESS (0) Preface and Acknowledgements Introduction: Mysticism and its Historical Manifestations | Mark W Flory - Academia.edu

The Mystical Tradition of the Eastern Church Studies in Patristics, Litu...​ The Mystical Tradition of the Eastern Church Studies in Patristics, Liturgy, and Practice GORGIAS PRESS (0) Pref...

Good luck on your journey!

 

[bmjackson]

@Imchristy Thank you so much for these links - just what I was hoping to find.

Can I just ask you, what the following verses mean, as John was directing his teaching in chapter 6 away from earthly food and drink to spiritual food and drink (not symbolic). As I said, I have no Protestantism left in me.

“Food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you” (verse 27). At this point, Jesus attempts to turn their perspective away from physical sustenance to their true need, which was spiritual. (Got Questions)

“Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die” (John 6:49–50).

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. / I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:4-5)

It seems to me that John was showing what it means to abide in Christ, in a spiritual way, of drawing all sustenance from His life force, or God's energies which must be moment by moment not once a week for example.

If this is the case in reality, there can be no sin.

Hoping to find answers as I continue my studies.

 

[Simonides]

It seems to me that John was showing what it means to abide in Christ, in a spiritual way, of drawing all sustenance from His life force, or God's energies which must be moment by moment not once a week for example.

If this is the case in reality, there can be no sin.

Could you clarify your meaning here please?

 

[bmjackson]

Could you clarify your meaning here please?

It seems to me that it is not about the elements having the ability to pass on grace, but it is the deeper meaning of abiding all of the time as in feed on Him with faith which is not happening until Theosis.

I see everything in scripture being from the physical to the spiritual as in the types and shadows we see in the OT.

I am trying to match the present time understanding to what the early Fathers believed which is not easy for me as all I have at the moment is the Philokalia which I believe is saying this but I am only a learner.

 

[lmchristy]

@Imchristy Thank you so much for these links - just what I was hoping to find.

Can I just ask you, what the following verses mean, as John was directing his teaching in chapter 6 away from earthly food and drink to spiritual food and drink (not symbolic). As I said, I have no Protestantism left in me.

“Food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you” (verse 27). At this point, Jesus attempts to turn their perspective away from physical sustenance to their true need, which was spiritual. (Got Questions)

“Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die” (John 6:49–50).

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. / I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:4-5)

It seems to me that John was showing what it means to abide in Christ, in a spiritual way, of drawing all sustenance from His life force, or God's energies which must be moment by moment not once a week for example.

If this is the case in reality, there can be no sin.

Hoping to find answers as I continue my studies.

Oh good!

As you know from reading John's chapter 6, Jesus speaks to the crowd who came seeking Him after he had fed them their fill on five loaves and two fish. He lectures them that they are interested in Him only because He filled their bellies. He then explains to them that whoever consumes His body and blood will have everlasting life. This concept is the basis of the entire purpose of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy - to prepare Holy Communion for consumption by those who have properly: fasted, confessed, repented, and received absolution from their ordained priest.

The Orthodox believe that Holy Communion is the actual body and blood of Jesus as described in this passage, not a symbolic representation thereof. The belief is that through the mystery of God the Holy Spirit transforms the wine and bread offerings presented by the priest into Christ's actual body and blood. The priest is charged with defending the chalice containing the Sacrament with his very own life, if need be, so that it may not fall into malevolent hands. Once prepared, the priest calls the faithful, who have properly prepared themselves, to consume from the chalice which he is guarding with his very life.

Many people just go through the motions and do not have a clue what this is about. But yes, the goal is to make living as Christ your way of life: with every breath, devotion, intent, and thought. But we are only human and sometimes two steps forward are followed by three steps backward. So one must always keep their eye on the prize, so to speak.

I find the monastic movement within the Orthodox church is a viable guideline for spiritual advancement. There is a book called, "The Ladder of Divine Ascent," which is written by John Climacus (579 - 649) which reading, they say, is a great preparation for celebrating the springtime resurrection throughout the 40 days of Lent leading into Holy Week, which is the time of the Orthodox Great Fast.

​

 

[bmjackson]

Many people just go through the motions and do not have a clue what this is about

Which shows to me that it is the spirit and soul that is feeding on the spiritual body and blood, as they do not benefit at all from partaking of the elements. We are told to worship in Spirit and in truth and no longer have symbols, shadows, or things that are not reality as it was under the old covenant. Spirit and flesh, or material are no longer to be confused.

The disciples, when they were instructed to partake, for the reason, not to feed on Him with faith but 'to show forth His death', were still under the OC and it still applies from what I can understand.

But these things can only be discerned by those who are no longer serving under the old covenant and see from a fleshy viewpoint.

The new covenant does away with those things which for me includes the Passover which is what Jesus was showing was about to end.

There are many more arguments from Barclays' Apology which I must study again to refresh myself which is what I do in the search for truth - look deeply into both sides, of course asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth.

I see you can only argue against the Protestant side of symbolism which I am already against and I guess most Orthodox can only do likewise.

The Divine Liturgy is a wonderful thing, as preparation for the entrance into union with Christ, which according to the teachings of the early church, came after a long period of testing and the wilderness of Purgation before Illumination. However, to say that it has taken place even for novices just because they partake in the elements puts it at the beginning of their journey before they have been tested in the Christian life, is what I can see.

Yes I have been looking at The Ladder of Divine Ascent of late and see it as the progress to Theosis and not to physical heaven as many will say.

 

[lmchristy]

You asked about Orthodoxy. Keep in mind that all the Books of the Bible, the Liturgical and subsequent Masses and Eucharist celebrations which we have today, were compiled by, or based upon compilations of, Byzantine Church leaders under the protection of the Roman Emperor Constantine after 325 AD. Christianity was bastardized at that time into a lavish physical world and used to win wars. Not that there isn't anything sacred contained therein. But you have nothing more tangible to go on about Jesus' direct teachings, than what they included in their Bible which you now quote from. It all comes from the original Orthodox Church. The Church which the Roman Catholics broke from in 1054 and from the Catholics all other western, "Christian," churches in one way or another.

When the physical world has rejected you completely, will you have stored enough treasures in Heaven to suffice?

 

[bmjackson]

I am very interested in church history so thanks for that information. It is good that we have the Holy Spirit to guide us into the truth isn't it.

I do intend to get hold of the Bible versions the Orthodox use, but the popular one is said not to be that good? I do mean to get hold of the Septuagint. I do consider the Orthodox church the true one and defend it up to the hilt in discussions. It is the real deal.

So I am searching for early teachings on the Eucharist and going through the verses deeply. I know this issue is a big deal and would keep me out of the OC. I am planning on going to an OC this weekend.

The physical world HAS rejected me completely and I am pretty much isolated with no-one. But my treasures are indeed in heaven and trust the Lord entirely.

 

[lmchristy]

You can read others' thoughts and trials until you're blue in the face, but does this not say it all:
=========================
Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Proverbs 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
=========================
and all else is just a distraction?

Safe travels!

 

[lmchristy]

I should add that when I said, "When the physical world has rejected you completely," it was not a reference to human behavior toward you, but a reference to your complete physical existence. So long as you are still eating, excreting, typing on a keyboard, holding a smartphone, etc. your physical existence is still intact. You are clearly still well within the physical world.

 

[jas3]

I do intend to get hold of the Bible versions the Orthodox use, but the popular one is said not to be that good? I do mean to get hold of the Septuagint.

Not sure which version that would be, possibly the Orthodox Study Bible. I've heard criticism of its notes (and I agree they often don't add anything to the text and just state information that comes a few verses later) but as far as I know, the translation itself is solid.

 

[bmjackson]

You can read others' thoughts and trials until you're blue in the face, but does this not say it all:
=========================
Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Proverbs 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
=========================
and all else is just a distraction?

Safe travels!

The Lord has most graciously answered my question though something in Theology as a Spiritual State in the life and teaching of St Sophrony The Athonite by Archimandrite Peter of Monastery of St John the Baptist, in a few short sentences, which means I can now go ahead.

And no, I am not well within the physical world. I would not be seeking Theosis if that was so. I do hope I do not meet many like you as I convert to EO.

 

[bmjackson]

Not sure which version that would be, possibly the Orthodox Study Bible. I've heard criticism of its notes (and I agree they often don't add anything to the text and just state information that comes a few verses later) but as far as I know, the translation itself is solid.

Yes that is the one. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[jas3]

Yes that is the one. Thanks for the explanation.

Glad I could help. One clarification I want to offer, rereading my own post, is that the criticism I referenced of the notes in the OSB has never involved their theological content, only their helpfulness. There are other, heterodox study Bibles (in particular the NABRE) that do have footnotes that contain serious theological errors.

 

[prodromos]

I should add that when I said, "When the physical world has rejected you completely," it was not a reference to human behavior toward you, but a reference to your complete physical existence. So long as you are still eating, excreting, typing on a keyboard, holding a smartphone, etc. your physical existence is still intact. You are clearly still well within the physical world.

My apologies, but I have no idea what practical benefit there is in any of what you've posted.

 

[Lukaris]

Just a small observation on the Orthodox Study Bible. It is a basically good translation and it would be nice if it had more Old Testament study notes. The study notes are decent. Personally, I believe the translation of Proverbs is excellent and the notes there are rich

 

[truefiction1]

Which shows to me that it is the spirit and soul that is feeding on the spiritual body and blood, as they do not benefit at all from partaking of the elements. We are told to worship in Spirit and in truth and no longer have symbols, shadows, or things that are not reality as it was under the old covenant. Spirit and flesh, or material are no longer to be confused.

The disciples, when they were instructed to partake, for the reason, not to feed on Him with faith but 'to show forth His death', were still under the OC and it still applies from what I can understand.

But these things can only be discerned by those who are no longer serving under the old covenant and see from a fleshy viewpoint.

The new covenant does away with those things which for me includes the Passover which is what Jesus was showing was about to end.

There are many more arguments from Barclays' Apology which I must study again to refresh myself which is what I do in the search for truth - look deeply into both sides, of course asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth.

I see you can only argue against the Protestant side of symbolism which I am already against and I guess most Orthodox can only do likewise.

The Divine Liturgy is a wonderful thing, as preparation for the entrance into union with Christ, which according to the teachings of the early church, came after a long period of testing and the wilderness of Purgation before Illumination. However, to say that it has taken place even for novices just because they partake in the elements puts it at the beginning of their journey before they have been tested in the Christian life, is what I can see.

Yes I have been looking at The Ladder of Divine Ascent of late and see it as the progress to Theosis and not to physical heaven as many will say.

Theosis is life in the Kingdom of God. We're studying a spiritual book entitled "Unseen Warfare". It's a very practical guide on Theosis.

 

[prodromos]

Just a small observation on the Orthodox Study Bible. It is a basically good translation and it would be nice if it had more Old Testament study notes. The study notes are decent. Personally, I believe the translation of Proverbs is excellent and the notes there are rich

The publishers had set themselves a worthy goal, but unfortunately they were not well read in the Church Fathers. That isn't really their fault as I'm aware that a lot of commentary on the Old Testament has probably never been translated into English.

 

[bmjackson]

Theosis is life in the Kingdom of God. We're studying a spiritual book entitled "Unseen Warfare". It's a very practical guide on Theosis.

Is this it?

The Art of Unseen Warfare — BIG WHITE STAR

By Justin Marler Achieving happiness, contentment and purpose in the modern times seems almost impossible. This book is a guide or manual for practicing spiritual warfare which is the way to restore ones life and relationship with God. In these pages you will find wise and enlightening quotes, tea

www.bigwhitestar.com