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The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role as opposed to the scripture order of God

Paidiske

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I think it's largely a matter of terminology. We talk about "pastoral care," and there are courses tailored to that. But what we really mean by that is care for someone's spiritual wellbeing, and that is undertaken by people with different gifts; the five-fold ministries and others. The gifts and the roles don't necessarily neatly overlap.

And the study required for ministry is not only in pastoral care, anyway; it's in Biblical languages, and study of the text, and theology, church history, ethics, liturgy, prayer and spirituality, and so on. And some understanding of those things is good for anyone who will take on responsibility in leading the church.

Ignorance is not a virtue.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I think it's largely a matter of terminology. We talk about "pastoral care," and there are courses tailored to that.
God alone gives the gifts and understanding and as all wait on the Lord these things manifest in the meetings if men do not hinder them and quench the spirit by man made traditions and tootles and time frames etc.Christ works in every part of the body to effectually work to the edifying of itself in love (Ephesians 4:15,26). And Hod alone gives the gift of pastors or other gifts. No man can give himself this or study into a gift. Now, it is true we are to teach in the body in Christ and this will happen if God can freely move among us. But what hinders this is what we have been talking about,

1 Corinthians 2: 1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God… 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”

1 Corinthians 12: 7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal… 11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ…. 14. For the body is not one member, but many. 15. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16. And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17. If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. …28. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.”

1 John 2: 27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”
But what we really mean by that is care for someone's spiritual wellbeing, and that is undertaken by people with different gifts; the five-fold ministries and others.
All the body can minister to one another as Christ works in every part freely. We do not read of any Bible schools or degrees or flattering tilted like “master of divinity” etc. Jesus said call no man master. One is our master and that is Jesus.
The gifts and the roles don't necessarily neatly overlap.
It depends what sphere you are talking about. If in a body freely edifying eachother as they are directed to do by the spirit in scripture. But if you refer to a Bible school or seminary etc. I have not seen apostolic courses or prophet courses etc. But we see pastoral studies or courses. There are even job listings in the Bible schools for those who get degrees and want to be a pastor in a gathering. These things are not right or scriptural. Elders plural, who may be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors and teachers gifts, are known in the body as they labour among the saints and home grown not a superstar from outside. Unless they visit as apostles prophets etc. But they must meet the requirements by the body who know them and thier life as 1 Timothy 3 mentions.
And the study required for ministry is not only in pastoral care,
This was the name of the courses I was referring to . I could find many proofs of this from many so called Bible schools and seminaries. It would be a longer post.
God teaches and gives ability for whatever is needed on the gift they are given by God and the body will edify itself in Christ love,

And Christ leads his church. There is never seen one man or woman over a church as the head who is exalted above others on a platform where all face forward and look at the back of each others heads to him. Not one verse.
Ignorance is not a virtue.
By not allowing the body to function properly and putting a one person pastor gift over all with elders under them is according to Gods commands as shown by Paul, ignorant.

1 Corinthians 14: 37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.@

No believer who walks in the Spirit and has gifts from God and is in Christ is ignorant. But. If believers trust in man and man’s wisdom and traditions and by doing so they make of no effect the scriptures and Gods order and commands the. That is ignorant.

2 Corinthians 2: 11. Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.”

Some natural fleshly men of the past as sone of today have wrongly assumed that the apostles abd believers were ignorant who had not had the sane high learning as them etc. But they were in Christ and not ignorant

Acts 4: 13. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”

The key is to be with Jesus and hear him and have Him effectually working in us and that is where all knowledge, gifts, understanding and ministry comes. Not by mens natural wisdom.

2 Corinthians 3: 5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”
 
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Paidiske

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We do not read of any Bible schools or degrees or flattering tilted like “master of divinity” etc.
Jesus did, however, spend three years training his disciples. It didn't look like a contemporary seminary, no, but it was an intentional time of training, equipping, and formation. This is not inherently wrong.
These things are not right or scriptural.
If you have never set foot in a seminary class, how can you possibly be in a position to decide they are not right, are not edifying? I would say that my years in theological college were invaluable in equipping me, as a Christian, and as a person in ministry.

There is a place, an important place, for studying and learning. Expecting everything to come by the Spirit with no effort made to appropriately equip ourselves is downright dangerous.
By not allowing the body to function properly
You keep making this accusation, and I will keep insisting that it is false.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Jesus did, however, spend three years training his disciples.
In a functioning church body where Christ is the head, he is inwardly teaching all,

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

and even when they saw him in person teaching them and they had been with jesus in the flesh, Jesus said he was in them and they in him.

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" ( 1 John 15:4 KJV)

and those who only saw him physically but did not have him inwardly could not hear his word inwardly as well

“Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.... “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” (John 8:43, 47 KJV)

and so we also read,

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27 KJV)


and so

"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen: (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV)

“If so be that ye have
heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:” (Ephesians 4:21 connected to Ephesians 4:16 showing Christ teaching inwardly all believers)

It didn't look like a contemporary seminary,
Nothing in the New Testament does because that is a tradition of man that can make the scriptures or the word of God of no effect as i showed just some above. The spiritual direction and ministry is different than a natural learning and ministry. Yes we all have to learn language and how to read and understand basic words etc. But the things of God are known only by and in the Spirit as God reveals them to us 1 Cor 2
no, but it was an intentional time of training, equipping, and formation.
and remember the understanding and learning comes from the inward knowledge of Christ as he teaches and speaks to the heart.
This is not inherently wrong.
Sometimes what man sees as right or the way that seems right unto him is not the best or specifically Gods way. It os not wrong to have children learn how to read and write and know certain things. But the spiritual things are not n own that way,

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God....“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”” (1 Cor. 2:11,14 KJV)

If you have never set foot in a seminary class, how can you possibly be in a position to decide they are not right, are not edifying?
I have set foot in them and been among them, (not as a student who payed money to join, but as God has led me at different times to go and see what they do and help some there. I have even sat in lectures and bible classes as they are called and even when some were doing what they called their first sermon, etc. i am well familiar with the order there.

Just as I have visited many many many many many many many gatherings and various so called "denominations", and behled their order.
I would say that my years in theological college were invaluable in equipping me, as a Christian, and as a person in ministry.
well, I can say that discussion among believers in these places ( if they are listening n the spirit) can be helpful to address certain issues. But generally this is not a body ministry and not the way the body functions to edify one another in a gathering.
There is a place, an important place, for studying and learning.
Yes, that place is to sit at the feet of Jesus and to listen in the spirit and hear him and His word. To allow Christ to effectually work in every part of the body to the edifying of itself in love.

"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." ( Psalm 91:1 KJV)

“The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.” (Psalm 25:14 KJV)

Expecting everything to come by the Spirit with no effort made to appropriately equip ourselves is downright dangerous.
wrong, as i already showed you in many verses and i trust in Jesus Christ to work in the body to equip all believers as he works effectually in every part. Without him in us we can do nothing (Ephesians 4:15,16 John 15:1-5, Hebrews 13:20, 21 KJV)

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God....But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." 9 1 Cor 2:4,5, 10-13 KJV)
You keep making this accusation, and I will keep insisting that it is false.
Well, the functioning of the body has been shown in many scriptures and I have visited many many gatherings and this function and God's order does not happen in many places. I guess I could say this to you more clearly if i saw your gatherings and order and if I observed if there was freedom and body ministry and examined more closely your By-Laws etc.
 
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LoveofTruth

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To all:

I read things like this online

"How to become a pastor in Canada?

Job requirements Pastor in Canada
  1. Completion of college, university or other program in religious studies is usually required. Some occupations in this unit group may require a master's of divinity or theology."
But then we read in scripture that the gift of pastors is only given by God as he sees fit and as He equips others to walk in that gift. The same can be said of apostles, prophets , evangelist and teachers. Paul said that God had made him an able minister. He didn't credit man or a school to make him this gift.

Here is an interesting consideration and concern.

Suppose a man was not even a christian, perhaps he was in some other religion) and he wanted to see if he could simply pretend to be a believer and go into a bible school , pay his money take the pastoral courses and finish all the test and pass them and then he goes and looks on the board in these schools at Job listings and sees a gathering wants a pastor for their church. So he applies has the right words and puts on a nice smile etc and then becomes the so called "pastor: or priest", over the body. Wouldn't this be dangerous?.He was not called by God to do it and he was in another religion and yet if he was able to fake his way to a place where he was exalted and over the body wouldn't that be dangerous spiritually? Yet, it seems that such a thing could happen.

But if believers allow Christ to effectually work in them and give them gifts and teach them and reveal things to them, they can be very wonderful in the gatherings. I have seen brothers who sat in the traditional systems of man, but who had been studying and growing in Christ fr years but did not have opportunity to share in many assemblies, suddenly grow and edify others in a free gathering where body ministry if functioning.

These people had no bible school and yet as God worked in them they became wonderful teachers and preachers and could exhort and comfort and intrust others in Christ.
 
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PloverWing

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Isn't that going to be a problem regardless? Suppose a person was not even a Christian, but pretended to be a believer and started attending your assembly, and was very good at pretending for a long time, maybe 10 years or more. And he spoke at most of your meetings and maybe even became an elder. It seems that such a thing could happen.
 
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LoveofTruth

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It would always be a problem. But in a gathering in homes as we see in scripture where there is a plurality of elders abd all can edify one another. This is better to find such a one out abd to address issues. And because no one man dominates or lords over others no one man can bind them up under his control.

In the one man pastor church where the man who was a non Christian may get in oversight. He can control and bind up the assembly abd no one is allowed to speak or share. If he is given a wrong power over others this can be more dangerous.
 
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PloverWing

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In the one man pastor church where the man who was a non Christian may get in oversight. He can control and bind up the assembly abd no one is allowed to speak or share. If he is given a wrong power over others this can be more dangerous.

I do sometimes see independent nondenominational congregations that are founded by a single charismatic individual pastor, and who are still led by that "founding pastor", and I worry a bit about their long-term health.

But lots and lots of congregations are part of some kind of structure that includes accountability. If my priest were to go off the rails, and private conversations weren't enough to rectify the situation, we have lay leaders in the church with some authority (our "vestry"), and we have a bishop who could step in. In denominations without bishops, there's often a board of elders or deacons or lay leaders that provide accountability. Have you perhaps been visiting too many churches that lack this kind of accountability structure?
 
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LoveofTruth

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I do sometimes see independent nondenominational congregations that are founded by a single charismatic individual pastor, and who are still led by that "founding pastor", and I worry a bit about their long-term health.
Yes, I has be seen these as well sometimes even after 30 years they still don’t have elders.
But lots and lots of congregations are part of some kind of structure that includes accountability.
The “structure” that many are in is not according to God’s order as seen in examples in scripture and the commands of God fort the church. I have been showing this in this snd other threads.
If my priest were to go off the rails,
All believers are a royal priesthood there is no special class of priest today. We don’t read of a “priest” over the body in the New Testament. We see plural elders/overseers, who may have different gifts such as apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers.
and private conversations weren't enough to rectify the situation
According to Matthew 18 if they don’t hear you or another bring it before the entire church and let him hear the church. This is God’s order.
, we have lay leaders in the church with some authority (our "vestry"),
No such thing as lay leaders in scripture or any division between the so called “clergy and laity” in scripture. This is a man made tradition that makes the word of God of no effect. “Laos”is the people of God and “Kleros” (where the word clergy comes from) is is the inheritance of God. All believers are both.
and we have a bishop who could step in.
Bishops (overseers) are the plural elders in scripture. But the whole church can make judgement. Yes, mature brothers can give a word but consensus is best.
In denominations without bishops,
The word “denomination” means to make a named. We see the name makers start in Babylon in Genesis.

And eventually in a healthy growing body ekder/overseers (bishops), will be in every church, in the plural.
there's often a board of elders or deacons or lay leaders that provide accountability.
No “board” in scripture or other worldly rudiments (Colossians 2:8). All can edify (Ephesians 4:16).
Have you perhaps been visiting too many churches that lack this kind of accountability structure?
No, the way the order is in many gatherings today is not according to scripture and Gods order abd freedom of the believers to minister and edify one another.

I have seen this one dominant leader in most assemblies everywhere and they are often in a exalted place over other people who are “under” them. They even write the position of the pastor or priest into thier man made By-Laws(traditions of man and commandments of man that turn from the truth of scripture).

If the body was functioning with plural elders and where all can edify in Christ, then the danger of a one man like Diotrephes (3rd John) would not be easy to do.

God commands body ministry and why would any want to ignore these commands and just set up one person , so called “pastor”, or “priest”?.
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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God commands body ministry and why would any want to ignore these commands and just set up one person , so called “pastor”, or “priest”?.
Much ignorance, and much tradition of men.

I have indeed noticed that every church I have studied, functions to at least some extent, as a human tribe. We have the honcho-dude, we have the top dogs, and we have the peons. Where, in the name of the Lord Jesus, we have careful and gentle resistance to this by the non-peons, we will have excellence, love, true holiness, and the Word of God lived and spoken. Where we have strong drive of this, where the tribal behavior is given as principal, we will have much less.

For quite a number of years, I tried to advocate for the elimination of the human tribal behavior within churches. But I learned three things. First, churches are His, no matter how reprobate, and it is He who will remove that reprobation when and as it will be removed. Second, all churches exist according to agreement, and without agreement, there is no church. And third, the agreement by which a church exists, will contain untruths, because all but one of its people, are men and women who are not God.
 
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RDKirk

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I attend a church that is that way. But the founding pastor has recently preached that he should not remain senior pastor beyond his fifties (based on a verse in Exodus). This has happened since his father (also a pastor) died recently. Probably connected, he grew a beard after his father died because, he told us, he must now consider himself in life no longer a son but an elder.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I attend a church that is that way
This is a big concern.
. But the founding pastor has recently preached that he should not remain senior pastor beyond his fifties (based on a verse in Exodus).
There is no senior pastor ever mebtioned in scripture over all and the 50’s thing is not a rule for ministry.
This has happened since his father (also a pastor) died recently
Again, no scripture for these things.
. Probably connected, he grew a beard after his father died because, he told us, he must now consider himself in life no longer a son but an elder.
This is part of the problem of having a one exalted lord type man over the body, they can just make up stuff and act like they can get away with it with no-one resisting or able to.

So much unbiblical things said there. But as God commands all the body can edify one another. With a one man pastor as you describe only a few verses should be able to adjust his position and have him step down and simply gather eith the body and wait in the Lord. I have shared many of those verses in this thread akready.
 
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RDKirk

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There are surprisingly few "rules" set out in scripture for how a local congregation is to be managed.
 
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LoveofTruth

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There are surprisingly few "rules" set out in scripture for how a local congregation is to be managed.
There are surprisingly many scriptures about God’s order all through the New Testament and even God’s commands for the believers as they gather. I have shared many of these verses in scripture which go directly against the one man over all as the “pastor” or “priest”. Scripture is very clear on these things.

Here are just a few of the Many, many,many I could give.

1 Corinthians 14: 26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying…29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge… 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints…37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

1 Peter 4: 10. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

Ephesians 4: 11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:..15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

1 Corinthians 12: 7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14. For the body is not one member, but many. 15. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16. And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17. If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18. But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19. And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20. But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23. And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25. That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.”

And when there are issues in the church the whole church can make decisions not just one pastor gift or a elder board, As we eee commanded in scripture,

Matthew 18: 17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Etc
 
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RDKirk

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There are surprisingly many scriptures about God’s order all through the New Testament and even God’s commands for the believers as they gather.
You said something different from what I said. I didn't say "as they gather," I said how a congregation is "managed."

How many elders should there be, for instance?

Every congregation that calls itself Christian can point to their own scriptural bases for why they do what they do, particularly if they're Protestant. You are no more authoritative in your interpretation than they are.
 
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LoveofTruth

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You said something different from what I said. I didn't say "as they gather," I said how a congregation is "managed."
I showed verses of how the church is “managed” this is by Christ directly building his church from with every believer and where he works effectually in every part of the body to the edifying of itself in love

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

And I already showed how God orders things in my first post in here


God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and sets the order in the gatherings, (Titus 1:5, Col. 2:5, Psalm 37:23, Eph. 4:15,16, 1 Tim 3:15, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Cor. 11:34, Heb 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27). No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and the dominion of exalted leaders”
How many elders should there be, for instance?
As we see in scripture at least more than one. Always plural elders is what we read. But there were times when Paul left churches with no elders for a time possibly up to six months to a few years. Elders take time to mature in the faith. Then Paul would go back to those churches with others and recognize elders .

But always plural. Notice this fact here. As I said scripture has a lot to show about these things.

Acts 14: 23. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”
Every congregation that calls itself Christian can point to their own scriptural bases for why they do what they do, particularly if they're Protestant.
No, they cannot. Not one congregation on earth can show from scripture where a one man in a pastor gift is over the entire church with the exalted position and place he has today and where he is in control of all and gets a regular salary etc. I have never seen any verses for this or anyone who could show such a verse . But on the contrary there are many verses that show body ministry where all are commanded to walk in as Christ leads. And these verses proving body ministry and edifying of one another are often ignored rejected avoided and even written against by sone as we see here.
You are no more authoritative in your interpretation than they are.
I show the scriptural authority and commands from God that’s the authority.

If you don’t know what verses these are perhaps read all the verses I gave in this thread again .
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yo all"

Si, if we read in scripture that God gives gifts and grace to every believer to minister and edify one another ( as many many many scriptures have been shown here to prove this, which I can quote again if any want), then why do many not obey God in this and edify one another in their gatherings at all times?

why do many not see the wonderful beauty and great body ministry that is available to all believers in Christ?

Why does man made tradition bind so many up and they fear leaving a tradition to allow God to work in every part of the body?
 
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