The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role as opposed to the scripture order of God

[Always in His Presence]

Ah, Home churches. Absolutely scriptural. But we also cannot ignore that first century churches set the precedent that they met both in homes and church buildings (temples)

Historians tell us that Timothy’s church was in the thousands.

Modern day examples would be Dr. Cho in South Korea with thousands of home churches and a main church that meets in a stadium.

Or Victory Church in Tulsa, Ok with over 100.

Acts 2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart.

Christian assemblies (churches), were forced underground throughout the Persecutions and were scattered numerous times beginning in Acts 8 -

My personal opinion is the most effective expression of the church is a combination of Home Churches and a "Parent" church. A Pastor is the under shepherd serving both the body of Christ and the head of the church. Apostles are 'sent ones' found the church - Prophets strengthen the church - Evangelist help grow the church - Pastors shepherd the church and teachers mature the church.

Pastors - the under shepherd - feed the flock, protect the flock and are responsible for day to day ministry and care. It is why the name is used for the title.

 

[PloverWing]

I thought how your assembly practices might serve as an example that goes beyond your words.

@LoveofTruth : So far, nothing in this 17-page thread has suggested to me that it would be a wonderful thing to visit one of your meetings. Nothing has indicated that I would hear God's voice better, or be able to serve God better, if I were in one of your meetings. I see that you don't like most Christian congregational meetings, but I haven't yet seen the positive aspects of your meetings.

I can see the appeal of a shared meal. One of the parishes near us has "Dinner Church" once a week, and it's something that works well for them. I've seen the presence of God in that parish.

And I've worshipped with the Friends (Quakers). I've seen their openness to the Light of God, and the way they act in community with one another. I see the presence of God in their midst.

But so far, nothing you've said suggests to me that I would experience the presence of God in one of your meetings. Your posts in this thread have been talking without listening. I've seen no attempt from you to understand the points of view of people who disagree with you. I can only assume that your meetings are similar, that you (you, personally) talk extensively and confidently and overrule others in the meeting who have different points of view.

So, tell me. Is there any reason why I should visit one of your meetings? Or should I stick with Dinner Church and the Friends?

 

[The Liturgist]

Historians tell us that Timothy’s church was in the thousands.

Also, there is the ancient cathedral in Kerala, India, built on the site of the martyrdom of St. Thomas the Apostle shorlty after a maharaja threw a javelin at him in 53 AD. The Portuguese in the 17th century disfigured it with a tacky Baroque facade, that would not look out of place in the Southwestern US, but behind the facade is the oldest extant cathedral church in Christendom (the second oldest being Holy Etchmiadzin in Armenia, which is older than Hagia Sophia, and like that of St. Thomas in Kerala, is still in use as a cathedral, having not been stolen by the Muslims).

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ah, Home churches. Absolutely scriptural.

Absolutely and the best way for a body to function in Gods order where mutual edification (which is commanded to be allowed) can happen. Just the very structure of many different called “churches” fights against the free body ministry in Christ where every part of the body can supply. And the fact that the seats are all facing forward looking at the back of others heads to the exalted man above others fights against the body of Christ edification of one another. In a home usually a living room believers are facing one another and like a family type environment can see one another and edify eachother in Christ. So this order of meeting in home having a meal and mutual edification and fellowship is great wisdom given us from God.

But we also cannot ignore that first century churches set the precedent that they met both in homes and church buildings (temples)

Wrong 100 percent.

When we read that the believers met from house to house and in the temple this does not mean they had Christian gatherings and worship in the temple. No, the Jewish believers met in Solomons porch a large area in the temple are where they met and evangelized and talked of Christ to who ever they could.

The temple is not the church or even remotely like the church. What house will ye build me saith the Lord, and the most high dwellerth not in temples made with hands. The Jewish believers were still struggling with the law and the end of the old covenant and were still going to the temple sacrificing animals and keeping the law and customs. The temple of the Jews is not the church or some church building” as sone refer to the similarity.

Historians tell us that Timothy’s church was in the thousands.

N, the history shows clearly that the early church met in home for a long time after Pentecost. The earliest so called “church building” was actually a house that they knocked a wall out of. The Dura-Europos church in Syria.

We see the history here

“

The first actual church building discovered​

It was in Dura-Europos in southeastern Syria and dates from the 230s. It was originally a house (and shared walls with surrounding houses”

These things are known among historians and even though sone today might try hard to justify their large castle-like temple like Constantinian type buildings . This is not the apostolic pattern in the scriptures. I could show many, many verses about the church which meets in their house.

Modern day examples would be Dr. Cho in South Korea with thousands of home churches and a main church that meets in a stadium.

Again, we are not talking about the modern man made traditions. The homer meetings they had in Korea are the good aspect in some Hebrew, but the large stadium is the questionable part. Again a long discussion.

Or Victory Church in Tulsa, Ok with over 100.

Acts 2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart.

Christian assemblies (churches), were forced underground throughout the Persecutions and were scattered numerous times beginning in Acts 8 -

No, even though they were hiding later in history, at the beginning , before persecution they were directed in homes. We also see them meeting in home in all other areas even where there was not an hour persecution as in Rome.

Acts 2: 46. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

Notice at this time when they met from house to house they had favour with all the people..So they let in homes at the fire action of God from the start.

My personal opinion is the most effective expression of the church is a combination of Home Churches and a "Parent" church.

Fortunately I don’t base Gods order commanded for all on “my personal opinion”. It doesn’t matter what our “personal opinion is we must follow the scriptural patterns and order shown and commanded. .

When the body meets in a large building looking at the back of each others heads to an exalted man elevated above the rest who controls the entire “show”, this fights against mutual edification of one another as we are commanded and show to walk in in the scriptures, (1 Cor. 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Ephesians 4:10-16, 1?l Thess 5:11, Roman’s 13:2-8, 1 Cor 12: etc etc)

A Pastor is the under shepherd serving both the body of Christ and the head of the church.

No, Christ is the head of the church and he works effectively in every part of the body to the edifying of one another in love Ephesians 4:15,16.
The pastor gift is not tThe head of the church. That is what I have been cautioning Against and from scripture.

Show me one verse where you see a pastor gift over the church as the head of the church? It doesn’t exist. That is a tradition of man that makes the word of God of no effect.

Apostles are 'sent ones' found the church - Prophets strengthen the church - Evangelist help grow the church - Pastors shepherd the church and teachers mature the church.

All five fold ministry are in sone sense shepherds. But a pastor gift is different and they help secure and nurture the flock and protect etc.

But in Ephesians 4:11, we see five fold gifts not just pastors for the edifying of the church. Then in verse 26 we see that every part can edify as well in 1 Cor 14:26 all can edify.

Pastors - the under shepherd - feed the flock, protect the flock and are responsible for day to day ministry and care. It is why the name is used for the title.

No the gift of pastor is not a title like that it’s a spiritual function in the body . And pastor gifts are notbthd only ones who feed the flock. In 1 Peter 5:1,2 we see Peter (an apostle) also is an elder/overseer, feeds the flock . Do not just pastor gifts.

In fact there is always a plural group of elders in every church snd these ekder/overseers may have one of the gifts such as being an apostle or prophet or evangelist or pastor or teacher gift. They are not all in the pastor gift.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Ok. Good luck with that.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ok. Good luck with that.

I trust in the Lord and his will as shown in scripture abd our hearts. I don’t trust in “luck”.

If you want to walk in the will of God in body ministry among the saints you also should find a gathering where all can edify one another as God commands to allow, 1 Cor. 15: 26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11,1 Cor 12, etc.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I trust in the Kird and his will as shown in scripture abd our hearts. I don’t trust in “luck”.

who id the Kird?

If you want to walk in the will of God in body ministry among the saints you also should find a gathering where all can edify one another as God commands to allow, 1 Vor. 24:26-48,, 1 Peter 4:10,11,1 Cor 12, etc.

As a Pastor, I do my best to walk in the will of God daily, as part of a team that has planted 3,500 churches across Europe we are pleased to present Almighty God with the precious fruit of the Earth as part of our worship to Him.

I wish you God's very best in all things.

As I shared - a bad tree cannot produce good fruit - according to our Lord - those are His very own words. The Pastoral ministry has been producing good fruit from the very foundation of the church until today.

 

[LoveofTruth]

who id the Kird?

Sorry typo, that should read Lord

As a Pastor, I do my best to walk in the will of God daily, as part of a team that has planted 3,500 churches across Europe we are pleased to present Almighty God with the precious fruit of the Earth as part of our worship to Him.

I wish you God's very best in all things.

As I shared - a bad tree cannot produce good fruit - according to our Lord - those are His very own words. The Pastoral ministry has been producing good fruit from the very foundation of the church until today.

Well as far as fruit in your life or others lives that is a very specific aspect for every individual.

But how sone judge fruit is also an issue.

And what I shared is from scripture in Gods order. If Paul and Peter (in the leading of the Spirit) show that all can and should use the gifts they are given to edify others in Christ as they gather, then if any men, who call themselves “pastors” do not do this ir hinder and quench the spirit in others from doing this, can we say they are in the right and producing good fruit at least in these things?

Can any in the body say they are good stewards if they hide their gift or allow a pastor gift to hinder them?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Can any in the body say they are good stewards if they hide their gift or allow a pastor gift to hinder them?

You would have to ask someone who is hindered.

Staying within the context of the thread - we are addressing pastors

Well as far as fruit in your life or others lives that is a very specific aspect for every individual.

How does God judge a gathering (church etc.) What fruit is the Lord looking for? What is the reason for the church?

What is the fruit of the ministry of the Pastor? Well we have 2,000 plus years of people accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior - billions of souls - that is the fruit of their ministry. If Jesus is correct - a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

History speaks other than what you are expounding on. But I pray God's best for you and believe your ministry will produce great fruit also. Much love and respect.

 

[Vanellus]

Fascinating discussion which I am working through but one point struck me was that about the word "church" being used for a building.

I think the key to this is that the word ekklesia should be translated as congregation (or assembly etc.) not church.

There is a sound etymological argument for using the word "church" for the building:

Old English cirice, circe "place of assemblage set aside for Christian worship; the body of Christian believers, Christians collectively; ecclesiastical authority or power," from Proto-Germanic *kirika (source also of Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisian zerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche).

This is probably [see extensive note in OED] borrowed via an unrecorded Gothic word from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma "the Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord," from PIE root *keue- "to swell" ("swollen," hence "strong, powerful").

church | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

So the source of the problem is the use of the word "church" rather than "congregation" in many Bible translations.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Fascinating discussion which I am working through but one point struck me was that about the word "church" being used for a building.

I think the key to this is that the word ekklesia should be translated as congregation (or assembly etc.) not church.

There is a sound etymological argument for using the word "church" for the building:


church | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

So the source of the problem is the use of the word "church" rather than "congregation" in many Bible translations.

Hello and God bless,

I see the word "church" as a good word, but sadly it has lost its meaning as the called out assembly, from the traditions of man. But if we see the word meaning what scriptures gives it, then we can still use it. Jesus said he would build "His" church, he is not building the Greek ekklesia. But he used that word for his church. some thoughts to consider.

Notice that the origin of the word "church" is more than the house of a Lord

"In Smith's Bible Dictionary from 1884, page 452, we read:

"the derivation of the word 'church' is uncertain. It is found in the Teutonic and Even in a circus we have a variety of activity of many people assembled in a circle."​

also I read,
In Smith's Bible Dictionary from 1884, page 452, we read:

"the derivation of the word 'church' is uncertain. It is found in the Teutonic and Slavonic languages and answers to the derivatives of ekklesia, which are naturally found in the romance languages and by foreign importation elsewhere. The word is generally said to be derived from the Greek kyriakos, meaning the lord's house. ...It is probably associated with the Scottish kirk, the Latin circus/circulous, the Greek klukos, because the congregations were gathered in circles."​

But if we even use the meaning "the house of a Lord", We are the house of the Lord made up of many living stones asesmbled together.

The church is the “house of God”, or “the house of the Lord” believers are also said to be the temple of God, we are a holy temple in the Lord, as we read,

“... of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.” ( Ephesians 2:19-22)

Again , we see as in many scriptures that the church is the house of the Lord, the household of God, the spiritual house. The word House, is interesting, because the gathering of many living stones together makes up the assembly or house of God gathered. A house is made up of many stones. We don’t consider something to be a house unless we think of the many assembled stones that make it up. The word Church”, meaning the house of a lord”, is a good word to define this, because we literally are the “House of God “. The church is the “house of God” as Paul said. Scripture defines what the believers are as they assemble. We know that if you ask a Greek person what does the word ekklesia mean? they would not say that it means the house of God or the body of Christ. Yet the church is defined as both as we see,

“.. he church, 23 Which is his body,...”( Ephesians 1:22,23)

“... the house of God, which is the church...” ( 1 Timothy 3:15)

So to a Greek calling the ekklesia the body of Christ or the house of God would not be true. The ekklesia, as I understand was a political gathering of the HOUSE of parliament gathered together to make decisions etc. Even in our modern world we call the parliament the house of Parliament. The ekklesia would be referred to a HOUSE also made up of an assembly of the members. So the word “Church”, which is a new word from its original wording and understanding., is redefined by scripture as the house of God, the church. A house is made up of many stones assembled together. And a body of many parts gathered.

I see the word a good word as it is defined by scripture and as we relate it to Jesus house. There are man made houses and the house of the Lord, all believers are in the house of the Lord. Consider the house expression,

“2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we,...”(Hebrews 3:2-6)

Here we se that Moses had a house also, referring to those baptized unto Moses. Jesus has His house and that house is believers. So the word “church”, meaning the house of a lord, fits good. Remember a house is build up with the assembly of many stones. In the word church we can find that expression of ekklesia, or the called out gathering assembled, congregation. But if we simply call all assemblies the church, doesn’t that create confusion also. Kids assemble at school is that the church?, No. Or people assemble in a mob to protest is that the church?, No. Also I was searching a bit and the word “assemble”, in greek is a different word than Ekklesia. The word ekklesia was used, as I have studied almost exclusively for the political gathering of the house of parliament, not for religious gatherings.

I see in a house many stones built up and assembled together. I also see believers assembled as living stones built up, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. The house symbol is very strong in scripture. In English, we have the word “assemble, or congregate. This word is a good word, but it still misses the house aspect of living stones assembled as the church.

The word “temple” in the new testament, used of believers, is “naos-meaning shrine. This original word would have referred to a physical building. Yet Paul and Jesus use it of a spiritual building. If we get technical, we could say don’t use the pagan word temple, or “naos”. But this would be pointless. For we know that the most high dwells not in temples made with hands. But we can use the word “temple” to define the church and our bodies etc, as well. “... your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you” (1 Cor. 6:19). “for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” ( 2 Cor. 6:16)

and this verse which ties in the church and the temple together

“...the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all....and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:” ( Ephesians 1:22,23,Eph 2:19-21)

The connection to the word ekklesia and church are still there. If the church is the body of Christ, what does that mean, if the believers called out and assembled are the body of Christ then they are many members in that body making up the body, we read of the many members yet one body in 1 Cor 12. So the idea of a gathering or called out assembly of believers is the same as the word church, because the word church means the Lords house or the dwelling of the Lord etc. This coincides with the idea of ekklesia. But the ekklesia was never known as the body of Christ in its original word meaning directly, yet is called the body of Christ and the house of God. Where in ancient meanings of the word ekklesia do we see the ekklesias being the house of God. Yet that is what the bible says it is. The ekklesia has been redefined or understood in a spiritual house and body, and temple. Jesus did say that he would build HIS church ( ekklesia), and like the word temple that he is building is different than the pagan temples the house he builds the ekklesia or synagogue he builds, is different also.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You would have to ask someone who is hindered.

I have been hindered personally in every gathering of the one man pastor over all in many kinds of churches.

This is a very easy exercise to show what I am showing according to the scripture and command of the Lord. Simply find any believers in your gathering or many other gatherings where the body faces forward looking at the back of each others heads facing a person on a altar or stage who is elevated above them, this is generally one person having a "pastor gift" and show them 1 Peter 4:10,11 and 1 Cor 14:26-38 and ask them are they free to wait on the Lord in every gathering and use their gifts and edify the body ANYTIME they gather?. If they are honest, they will most likely say no I am not free and I have never done this and I had no idea God commands this freedom and waiting on him in the meetings. They most likely could also point to the man made bylaws of their gathering ( commandments of men) to show tha under the "ministry section", the one man called the Pastor is the only one with freedom of the so called "pulpit".

This is an easy exercise. i encourage you and others to try it and see very clearly that the body is often hindered from using their gifts and functioning in the church body where Christ is seeking to "sup" with them and participate in fellowship and edification with them/ The one anothering we see so much of in scripture is often non existant.

Then ask them are they being a good steward of the grace and gifts of God to one another? If not, then change all things to God's order and wait on the Lord. Grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Then get back to me and maybe rephrase that comment.

Staying within the context of the thread - we are addressing pastors

Yes, being good stewards is for all not just the pastor gift as scripture shows. I discuss the pastor gift and the modern role that has the person called "the Pastor" over all that hinders the proper body ministry. I must also show verses where the body is commanded for all to be able to function and not just the pastor gift.

What part of this verse says the one gift of pastors is to be exalted over the other gifts among the saints. Notice that all these gifts are for the church also.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV)

How does God judge a gathering (church etc.)

He works in every part to have spiritual judgement as scripture shows

“For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?” ( 1 Corinthians 5:12 KJV)

“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” ( 1 Corinthians 2:5 KJV)

“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:28 KJV)

"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18L17-20 KJV)

What fruit is the Lord looking for?

you seem to think that if a gathering has large numbers that is the evidence of fruit in the one man pastor led churches. But if that was the case we could look at many gatherings which are not all agreed with and say they have fruit so they must e right I think of the people under the Pope or some of the other groups that are not agreed with who have many people in their group.

but even the verses you use for fruit are not only what you see them as. The fruit of the Spirit and the fruit of our lips and the fruit of righteousness all again, come from within, where Christ works in all. This is how we have God's grace working in us and flowing from us

"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment" (Matthew 12:33-36 KJV)

and as I have been showing in this entire thread

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." ( John 15:1-5 KJV)

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22 KJV)

and so,

"For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth ; ) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:9 KJV)

What is the reason for the church?

This is a long discussion. But simply

the church is the body of Christ, a spiritual house built up of living stones. The function of the church is to glorify God, edify one another in Christ in all things such as teaching one another, doctrine one to another, fellowship one to another, ministry gifts of the spirit one to another, encouraging one another, loving one another, remembering the Lords death and resurrection among one another in the fellowship of breaking bread, preaching to the lost to win souls as God works in them, preaching the gospel.

But this part among one another is vital which seems to be misplaced as all look to the one man pastor ministry over all and neglect the gift that is in them, or have a man spoil ( rob) them of their goods that God gives and rib them of their stewardship of the grace and gifts of God to one another.

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:" (Ephesians 4:15-18 KJV)

Well we have 2,000 plus years of people accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior - billions of souls - that is the fruit of their ministry. If Jesus is correct - a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

What I share is from scripture and the order God commands and the truth of Christ working in every believer to edify one another. I do not base what I share on the traditions of man or the so called evidence", from mans history. If so then I would say that the Roman Catholic church is the true one because of numbers over time. This would put the reformers as in error because of numbers etc. Which I do not agree with.

I show what God has shown from scripture and what Paul and peter and others taught the church. What came later is also documented and how the church shifted from the body ministry to the one man over all. We see this begin in the scriptures where Paul warns of men drawing away disciples after themselves in Acts 20. He warned of this with tears night and day for three years. So it was important. We read of other false apostles and men coming in among the saints in 2 Cor 11, and other places. John warns of Diotrephese who loveth the preeminance over all and kicked some out of the church. Then we read of the error of placing one man or bishop over the church with the so called "church Fathers" and some of their words that they used to try and combat heresy and many assemblies use these words rather than scripture to justify the one man pastor or bishop over a church. The history is a long one and much can be said about this and how we got to where we are today.

History speaks other than what you are expounding on.

No, history shows how men followed the traditions of men and error for a long time to eventually quench the spirit in the body and try to silence the body og Christ from edifying itself in love as Christ works in all.

When Jesus Christ was on the earth the devil tried to silence him and now Christ is in all the body all over the world and the devil always wants to silence the body of Christ and hinder us from doing Gods will.

I speak according to scripture and God's order shown and the order Paul and peter and others walked in, not the historical traditions of men and the commandments of men that turn from the truth.

I can say a word here about the Lord working even among weakness. Even if a gathering has weakness and has a one man pastor ministry over all. The church is often still filled with many believers. This does not mean that they cannot still walk in Christ and learn from the reading of scripture and some teaching and prayer and some spiritual worship. But the true function and edifying of the body is hindered and this will always cause a great problem. The danger may be to have Christ outside knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them, but they think all is good and have need of nothing. The result is a dangerous one for any gathering as we read in Revelation to the church of Laodicea.

But I pray we may all come into the fellowship of Christ and edification of all by Christ working in us and learn to participate with Christ in the gatherings and to one another. Let those who are exalted step down and gather in waiting with the body. Let no man think of himself more highly than he ought to but soberly as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith and gifts for all to edify all.

But I pray God's best for you and believe your ministry will produce great fruit also. Much love and respect.

May God bless you and I pray you see the body ministry in scripture and working in all and in yourself as well and then let all things be done unto edifying as all edify one another in Christ.

 

[Vanellus]

God bless you too LoveofTruth,

I think you wrote in one of your posts something along the lines of the word "pastor" only occurs once in the NT. In fact pastor, being an English word, doesn't occur in the NT as it was written since it was written in ancient Greek (koine Greek) not English. Stating the obvious I know but important nonetheless. In fact the Greek word, poimen, occurs several times in the NT and is usually translated as shepherd. It's only fairly recently that pastor in English has been used mostly in its ecclesiastical sense and shepherd in the agricultural sense. For many centuries both were used in both senses. Istr Thomas Hardy using "pastor" in the agricultural sense but I might be wrong on that. It's the context that determines the meaning e.g. Lk 2:8 is clearly the agricultural sense whereas Eph 4:11 is the ecclesiastical sense.

As for ekklesia, I don't think it has any inherently political sense. In Acts 19:32ff it is used in the secular sense of a gathering of people, not just Christians. Clearly there would be political meetings in NT times but it is the act of meeting which prompted the use of the word. Of course, one could (not necessarily should) use "church" to mean the universal church and congregation (or assembly etc.) to mean a local congregation. I don't think there were any (or not many) dedicated church buildings in the time of the NT hence there is no single word for a church building in the NT I believe.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I have been hindered personally in every gathering of the one man pastor over all in many kinds of churches.

This is a very easy exercise to show what I am showing according to the scripture and command of the Lord. Simply find any believers in your gathering or many other gatherings where the body faces forward looking at the back of each others heads facing a person on a altar or stage who is elevated above them, this is generally one person having a "pastor gift" and show them 1 Peter 4:10,11 and 1 Cor 14:26-38 and ask them are they free to wait on the Lord in every gathering and use their gifts and edify the body ANYTIME they gather?. If they are honest, they will most likely say no I am not free and I have never done this and I had no idea God commands this freedom and waiting on him in the meetings. They most likely could also point to the man made bylaws of their gathering ( commandments of men) to show tha under the "ministry section", the one man called the Pastor is the only one with freedom of the so called "pulpit".

This is an easy exercise. i encourage you and others to try it and see very clearly that the body is often hindered from using their gifts and functioning in the church body where Christ is seeking to "sup" with them and participate in fellowship and edification with them/ The one anothering we see so much of in scripture is often non existant.

Then ask them are they being a good steward of the grace and gifts of God to one another? If not, then change all things to God's order and wait on the Lord. Grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Then get back to me and maybe rephrase that comment.

Yes, being good stewards is for all not just the pastor gift as scripture shows. I discuss the pastor gift and the modern role that has the person called "the Pastor" over all that hinders the proper body ministry. I must also show verses where the body is commanded for all to be able to function and not just the pastor gift.

What part of this verse says the one gift of pastors is to be exalted over the other gifts among the saints. Notice that all these gifts are for the church also.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV)

He works in every part to have spiritual judgement as scripture shows

“For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?” ( 1 Corinthians 5:12 KJV)

“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” ( 1 Corinthians 2:5 KJV)

“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.” ( 1 Corinthians 14:28 KJV)

"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18L17-20 KJV)


you seem to think that if a gathering has large numbers that is the evidence of fruit in the one man pastor led churches. But if that was the case we could look at many gatherings which are not all agreed with and say they have fruit so they must e right I think of the people under the Pope or some of the other groups that are not agreed with who have many people in their group.

but even the verses you use for fruit are not only what you see them as. The fruit of the Spirit and the fruit of our lips and the fruit of righteousness all again, come from within, where Christ works in all. This is how we have God's grace working in us and flowing from us

"Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment" (Matthew 12:33-36 KJV)

and as I have been showing in this entire thread

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." ( John 15:1-5 KJV)

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22 KJV)

and so,

"For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth ; ) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Ephesians 5:9 KJV)

This is a long discussion. But simply

the church is the body of Christ, a spiritual house built up of living stones. The function of the church is to glorify God, edify one another in Christ in all things such as teaching one another, doctrine one to another, fellowship one to another, ministry gifts of the spirit one to another, encouraging one another, loving one another, remembering the Lords death and resurrection among one another in the fellowship of breaking bread, preaching to the lost to win souls as God works in them, preaching the gospel.

But this part among one another is vital which seems to be misplaced as all look to the one man pastor ministry over all and neglect the gift that is in them, or have a man spoil ( rob) them of their goods that God gives and rib them of their stewardship of the grace and gifts of God to one another.

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:" (Ephesians 4:15-18 KJV)

What I share is from scripture and the order God commands and the truth of Christ working in every believer to edify one another. I do not base what I share on the traditions of man or the so called evidence", from mans history. If so then I would say that the Roman Catholic church is the true one because of numbers over time. This would put the reformers as in error because of numbers etc. Which I do not agree with.

I show what God has shown from scripture and what Paul and peter and others taught the church. What came later is also documented and how the church shifted from the body ministry to the one man over all. We see this begin in the scriptures where Paul warns of men drawing away disciples after themselves in Acts 20. He warned of this with tears night and day for three years. So it was important. We read of other false apostles and men coming in among the saints in 2 Cor 11, and other places. John warns of Diotrephese who loveth the preeminance over all and kicked some out of the church. Then we read of the error of placing one man or bishop over the church with the so called "church Fathers" and some of their words that they used to try and combat heresy and many assemblies use these words rather than scripture to justify the one man pastor or bishop over a church. The history is a long one and much can be said about this and how we got to where we are today.

No, history shows how men followed the traditions of men and error for a long time to eventually quench the spirit in the body and try to silence the body og Christ from edifying itself in love as Christ works in all.

When Jesus Christ was on the earth the devil tried to silence him and now Christ is in all the body all over the world and the devil always wants to silence the body of Christ and hinder us from doing Gods will.

I speak according to scripture and God's order shown and the order Paul and peter and others walked in, not the historical traditions of men and the commandments of men that turn from the truth.

I can say a word here about the Lord working even among weakness. Even if a gathering has weakness and has a one man pastor ministry over all. The church is often still filled with many believers. This does not mean that they cannot still walk in Christ and learn from the reading of scripture and some teaching and prayer and some spiritual worship. But the true function and edifying of the body is hindered and this will always cause a great problem. The danger may be to have Christ outside knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them, but they think all is good and have need of nothing. The result is a dangerous one for any gathering as we read in Revelation to the church of Laodicea.

But I pray we may all come into the fellowship of Christ and edification of all by Christ working in us and learn to participate with Christ in the gatherings and to one another. Let those who are exalted step down and gather in waiting with the body. Let no man think of himself more highly than he ought to but soberly as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith and gifts for all to edify all.


May God bless you and I pray you see the body ministry in scripture and working in all and in yourself as well and then let all things be done unto edifying as all edify one another in Christ.

Hello again,

It is understood that in English as we read the English bibles.. This is a confusing road to go down for even the word Jesus is not found in the Bible but we use Jesus in English. We are not speaking Hebrew or Greek to other English speaking people and the word “pastors” is used once in the New Testament, and the word “pastor” is used once in the Old Testament in this verse

Jeremiah 17: 16. As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.”

Here we notice that Jeremiah was a prophet and yet he uses the word “pastor” here . Now I know that the word here is used in the sense of “shepherd. And that’s the point. A shepherd in a spiritual sense may not always be a pastor or he may have that gift as well. An example of this was in 1 Peter where Peter says he was also an elder overseer and yet he was an apostle. He refers to Jesus as the chief (head of the church) Shepherd. Agsin the word pastor and shepherd have connection but a subtle difference is given in scripture.

Yes, I use and believe the English interpretation and we are not speaking Greek or Hebrew to eachother. I use the meaning of words from Greek and Hebrew simply to get a sense of the meaning and within the context as well.

I do notice that the word pastor (once in the OT in Jeremiah ) and the word pastors also found only in Jeremiah have various applications. The word pastors as one of the five fold ministries in Ephesians 4:11 is in plural and only used there. To ignore this abs make it shepherd in other places and say it is used as pastor there is not right and the entire Bible will begin to be confusing to others if we do this.

Sometimes there is a word in our Bible that is only found once and yet a similar word might be used in other olascescwith a different Greek word. Or sometimes a meaning of a word has more than 20 meanings in Greek and sone very different meanings . We don’t want to just make the word a single meaning in all cars or ride we would not have the proper sense and understanding.

But we can safely say that pastors is found only once in the KJV Bible and we never see a single pastor gift over the church in absolute authority over all and where he alone has the freedom of ministry and all the elders are the supportive arm of him, as we see in the modern role of the so called “pastor” today. In fact we see the exact opposite we see body ministry and other gifts to function for the edifying of the body and not just the pastor gift.

The pastors in Ephesians 4:11 are only one of the gifts mebtioned there. Yet all of there gifts may in sone sense be called shepherds , though not specifically the Pastors” . As Peter was a apostle and we could say one of the shepherds also .

But to have body ministry in Christ in the gatherings takes faith. It takes trust and total reliance on Christ to wirk in us and to build his church and to give certain gifts to the body as he sees fit.

If we don’t have faith then sone will run into the traditions of man and worldly wisdom and what seems right in their own eyes.

Interesting point to consider is that when Paul and others planted a church he would often leave that church in homes for a period of time with no recognized elders or overseers. Then he would go back with others abd recognize what God had been doing and then elders would be ordained. This may have been between 6 months to three years etc.

. So what we see here is that no man could go to a thing called a “Bible school “ and take a so called “pastor study course” and the.n be the pastor over others. You cannot study or buy your way into the gifts that God alone gives. No, the gifts are given to the body as God sees fit and as all of them function and minister to one another. The body will noticed sone having certain gifts and spiritual labour among them.

But again this takes faith and trust that God actually is working in the body .

 

[Vanellus]

Are you replying to your own post, LoveofTruth?

 

[LoveofTruth]

God bless you too LoveofTruth,

I think you wrote in one of your posts something along the lines of the word "pastor" only occurs once in the NT. In fact pastor, being an English word, doesn't occur in the NT as it was written since it was written in ancient Greek (koine Greek) not English. Stating the obvious I know but important nonetheless. In fact the Greek word, poimen, occurs several times in the NT and is usually translated as shepherd. It's only fairly recently that pastor in English has been used mostly in its ecclesiastical sense and shepherd in the agricultural sense. For many centuries both were used in both senses. Istr Thomas Hardy using "pastor" in the agricultural sense but I might be wrong on that. It's the context that determines the meaning e.g. Lk 2:8 is clearly the agricultural sense whereas Eph 4:11 is the ecclesiastical sense.

As for ekklesia, I don't think it has any inherently political sense. In Acts 19:32ff it is used in the secular sense of a gathering of people, not just Christians. Clearly there would be political meetings in NT times but it is the act of meeting which prompted the use of the word. Of course, one could (not necessarily should) use "church" to mean the universal church and congregation (or assembly etc.) to mean a local congregation. I don't think there were any (or not many) dedicated church buildings in the time of the NT hence there is no single word for a church building in the NT I believe.

Hello again, I meant to post this to you

It is understood that in English as we read the English bibles.. This is a confusing road to go down for even the word Jesus is not found in the Bible but we use Jesus in English. We are not speaking Hebrew or Greek to other English speaking people and the word “pastors” is used once in the New Testament, and the word “pastor” is used once in the Old Testament in this verse

Jeremiah 17: 16. As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.”

Here we notice that Jeremiah was a prophet and yet he uses the word “pastor” here . Now I know that the word here is used in the sense of “shepherd. And that’s the point. A shepherd in a spiritual sense may not always be a pastor or he may have that gift as well. An example of this was in 1 Peter where Peter says he was also an elder overseer and yet he was an apostle. He refers to Jesus as the chief (head of the church) Shepherd. Agsin the word pastor and shepherd have connection but a subtle difference is given in scripture.

Yes, I use and believe the English interpretation and we are not speaking Greek or Hebrew to eachother. I use the meaning of words from Greek and Hebrew simply to get a sense of the meaning and within the context as well.

I do notice that the word pastor (once in the OT in Jeremiah ) and the word pastors also found only in Jeremiah have various applications. The word pastors as one of the five fold ministries in Ephesians 4:11 is in plural and only used there. To ignore this abs make it shepherd in other places and say it is used as pastor there is not right and the entire Bible will begin to be confusing to others if we do this.

Sometimes there is a word in our Bible that is only found once and yet a similar word might be used in other olascescwith a different Greek word. Or sometimes a meaning of a word has more than 20 meanings in Greek and sone very different meanings . We don’t want to just make the word a single meaning in all cars or ride we would not have the proper sense and understanding.

But we can safely say that pastors is found only once in the KJV Bible and we never see a single pastor gift over the church in absolute authority over all and where he alone has the freedom of ministry and all the elders are the supportive arm of him, as we see in the modern role of the so called “pastor” today. In fact we see the exact opposite we see body ministry and other gifts to function for the edifying of the body and not just the pastor gift.

The pastors in Ephesians 4:11 are only one of the gifts mebtioned there. Yet all of there gifts may in sone sense be called shepherds , though not specifically the Pastors” . As Peter was a apostle and we could say one of the shepherds also .

But to have body ministry in Christ in the gatherings takes faith. It takes trust and total reliance on Christ to wirk in us and to build his church and to give certain gifts to the body as he sees fit.

If we don’t have faith then sone will run into the traditions of man and worldly wisdom and what seems right in their own eyes.

Interesting point to consider is that when Paul and others planted a church he would often leave that church in homes for a period of time with no recognized elders or overseers. Then he would go back with others abd recognize what God had been doing and then elders would be ordained. This may have been between 6 months to three years etc.

. So what we see here is that no man could go to a thing called a “Bible school “ and take a so called “pastor study course” and the.n be the pastor over others. You cannot study or buy your way into the gifts that God alone gives. No, the gifts are given to the body as God sees fit and as all of them function and minister to one another. The body will noticed sone having certain gifts and spiritual labour among them.

But again this takes faith and trust that God actually is working in the body .

 

[LoveofTruth]

Are you replying to your own post, LoveofTruth?

opps don't know how I did that. I posted to you below

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all;

Consider that no believer can give themselves the gifts such as apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors and teachers.

It is as God gives the gifts .

So for a person to go to a thing called a “Bible school” and takes a pastoral studies course and do sone test and then he is suddenly in the pastor gift. This is not the way the gifts are given.

And Paul would leave new planted churches without elders or oversight for a time and the. Later come back and recognize riders. Because it takes time if waiting on the Lord to see the gifts manifest .

 

[Paidiske]

So for a person to go to a think glcalled a “Bible school” and takes a pastoral studies course and do sone test abd then he is suddenly in the pastor gift. This is not the way the gifts are given.

And absolutely nobody would say that it is.

Rather, we would say that people whose gifts and calling to the role are recognised, undertake appropriate study to be equipped for the work to which they are called.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And absolutely nobody would say that it is.

Rather, we would say that people whose gifts and calling to the role are recognised, undertake appropriate study to be equipped for the work to which they are called.

It’s interesting that the gift is from God a man cannot study himself into that gift or say he is a pastor gift after doing a test. Yet, today many assemblies require such a study at a school to be in that gift.

But what’s also interesting is that there are five gifts mebtioned in Ephesians 4:11 and not just pastors. How come this one gift dominates over all today?

How come, to be consistent in the error such schools don’t have an apostolic course on how to be an apostle or a prophet course on how to be a prophet etc?