The parable of the fig tree

[d taylor]

Well on one hand you said the generation of Jews that see the events of the olivet discourse will know He is near, right at the door. Then on the other hand, you said the generation of Jews that claimed the coming of the Lord is near, right at the door, didn't actually know he was near, right at the door, but taught he could come any time. So its a little hard to follow you.

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No never said what you are thinking i have said.

I will write this one more time and that will be it for me.

James thought and or hope he would see the return of Jesus in his lifetime. But he knew that Jesus' return could happen at anytime after Jesus went back up to heaven. That is why James writes, it is at hand, but it is seen now that Jesus' return did not happen in James's lifetime.

Now the generation of believing Jews who will be alive during the tribulation will see the return of Jesus (as James did not see it) and they will know His return is near in the tribulation. Because they will see signs showing Jesus' return is near.

 

[Douggg]

The context sets the stage for the "last days" in which Rich men were hording wealth and from the workers.

James 5:2-4 You have hoarded treasure in the last days. 4Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts.

I am copying and pasting from the kjv.

James was writing to the Jews who had been scattered into the nations, who were also Christians. They were living in the last days that Israel was in the land of Israel.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James exhorts them to patient until the coming of the Lord and the is coming had drawn near

James 5:8 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near.

The same verse from the kjv...

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Verse 8, James gives another incentive to be patient, and how to live. "for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh" meaning it is getting closer day by day.

You disagree with what I think James meant. So, did Jesus return to this earth in James's day ? No.

So whether James was wrong or it is being misunderstood what he meant - does not change the reality that Jesus has not yet returned to this earth.

 

[d taylor]

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Here are your questions and my reply's to your questions.

Question #1: IF one can know when the coming is near based on seeing the events of the olivet discourse play out, Did the authors of the NT live through the events of the olivet discourse when they said it was the last hour, the parousia was near, the coming was in a little while without delay, it was the end of all things, etc...????

No they did not live through the coming of Jesus
Concerning the word parousia

You should study the Olivet Discourse Matthew 24, it is explained there. Here is just a little explanation on Jesus second advent.
Start at verse 36 it is stated no one knows and this advent is described as sudden and unexpected as the flood was in Noah's day. Jesus plainly states His coming (parousia) is sudden and unexpected

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

But this would not be true if Jesus' coming was at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation. Many mistakenly placed Jesus' second coming at Matthew 24: 29-30. Matthew 24: 29-31 does not use Jesus' special word (parousia). Matthew 24: 29-31 dos say the tribulation is immediately followed by unparalleled heavenly events involving the sun, moon and stars. These heavenly events are followed by the sign of The Son of Man. But the word parousia is not used.

But to see Jesus coming like this is not the same as describing His descent from the presence of God (The Father). In fact it can not precisely that.
At the time that the world sees Jesus this way (sign of The Son of Man) He is already the clouds that are found in the heaven (sky). But when did His coming from God's presence begin? When in fact does the parousia really began.

The parousia begins at the time God's judgments begin. The coming will be like the flood suddenly. Therefore the coming will occur at a time when uninterrupted human life is going on as usual. Just as it was before the flood. So this means the coming of Jesus can not actually be at Matthew 24: 29-31, as this is a most sever time on earth, that is these days were not cut short no flesh would have survived.

So the parousia begins without a sign, it is only after the tribulation of thoses days is the sign of The Son of Man is seen in heaven (the sky). The term parousia also does not simply refer to an arrival, it clearly covers a span of time, the time of the tribulation.


Question #2: IF the NT authors did not live through the events of the olivet discourse, why did they say the coming was near? in other words, Why wouldn't they just respond like Paul, that the coming was not near because certain things hadn't happened yet (2 thessalonians 2:2-3)????

Because Jesus' second coming could have happened at any time with out notice.
The day of Christ, is the bema seat judgment of The Messiah and not the tribulation.

“The Day” Is the Judgment Seat of Christ – Grace Evangelical Society

Question #3: IF the NT authors cannot declare it is near, who gets to decide or who has the authority to declare what events of the olivet discourse indicate its near like a fig tree sprouting leaves, especially considering all of failed predictions

God has declared in The Bible how the events will play out.

 

[d taylor]

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No never said what you are thinking i have said.

I will write this one more time and that will be it for me.

James thought and or hope he would see the return of Jesus (the rapture part of the second coming) in his lifetime. But he knew that Jesus' return (the rapture part of the second coming) could happen at anytime after Jesus went back up to heaven. That is why James writes, it is at hand, but it is seen now that Jesus' return did not happen in James's lifetime.

Now the generation of believing Jews who will be alive during the tribulation will see the return of Jesus (as James did not see it) and they will know His return is near in the tribulation. Because they will see signs showing Jesus' return is near.

 

[claninja]

James was writing to the Jews who had been scattered into the nations, who were also Christians. They were living in the last days that Israel was in the land of Israel.

I can definitely agree with this in part.

Verse 8, James gives another incentive to be patient, and how to live. "for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh" meaning it is getting closer day by day.

You disagree with what I think James meant. So, did Jesus return to this earth in James's day ? No.

So whether James was wrong or it is being misunderstood what he meant - does not change the reality that Jesus has not yet returned to this earth.

The word for "draweth nigh" is in the perfect tense when we look at the greek of James 5:8. The perfect tense of the greek word to drawn near indicates extreme closeness or immediate imminence.

1448 eggízō (from 1451 /eggýs, "near") – properly, has drawn close (come near). 1448 (eggízō) occurs 14 times in the Greek perfect tense (indicative mood) in the NT which expresses "extreme closeness, immediate imminence -helps word studies

The perfect tense does NOT indicate something getting closer day by day. So I disagree with what you think James meant.

Whether Jesus did or did not return in James generation is going beyond the OP.

Jesus said when you see all these things (events of the olivet discourse), then YOU WILL KNOW He is near, right at the door. So there is no indication that they only "might" know Jesus is near nor is there any indication that it could happen at "any time". Instead its "When you see these events I am describing to you happen, THEN YOU WILL KNOW He is near, right at the door".

Then, decades later, James writes a letter to the scattered tribes claiming "the coming of the Lord has drawn near, the judge is standing at the door". Why would james write that IF he wasn't living through the events of the olivet discourse?

Or did James believe he was living through the events of the discourse, and therefore thought he knew for sure the coming of the Lord was near, right at the door?

Pretend you are an apostle in the first century, and Jesus personally tells YOU that when YOU see these things happening (persecution, false prophets, many falling away from the church, the gospel going to the world, great tribulation, AOD, etc.....) THEN YOU WILL KNOW He is near, right at the door. Would you have thought you knew he was near, right at the door, if you saw empire wide persecution of christians, world wide famine, the gospel going to the whole roman empire, many antichrists arising and going out from the church, many false prophets going out into the world, Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed, etc.....)?

 

[claninja]

Question #1: IF one can know when the coming is near based on seeing the events of the olivet discourse play out, Did the authors of the NT live through the events of the olivet discourse when they said it was the last hour, the parousia was near, the coming was in a little while without delay, it was the end of all things, etc...????

No they did not live through the coming of Jesus
Concerning the word parousia

Your answer is not what the question is asking. The question is NOT “did they believe they lived through the coming or parousia”. The question is did the authors of the NT believe THEY were the ones living through the events of the olivet discourse.

 

[d taylor]

Your answer is not what the question is asking. The question is NOT “did they believe they lived through the coming or parousia”. The question is did the authors of the NT believe THEY were the ones living through the events of the olivet discourse.

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So where is the word believe in your question. You wrote Did the authors of the NT live through the events of the olivet discourse when they said it was the last hour, the parousia was near, the coming was in a little while without delay, it was the end of all things, etc...????

 

[claninja]

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So where is the word believe in your question. You wrote Did the authors of the NT live through the events of the olivet discourse when they said it was the last hour, the parousia was near, the coming was in a little while without delay, it was the end of all things, etc...????

My apologies. In my mind it’s implicated that they believed they were, that’s why they said it. But you are correct. Whether they did live through it and whether they believed they did live through it can be 2 different things. So I’ll rephrase.

The first question is NOT did they live through the parousia. The first questions is did they live through the events of the Olivet discourse WHEN they said “it is near, in a little while, etc…..”?

 

[claninja]

No never said what you are thinking i have said

I don’t see a difference between what I thought you said and what you said.

You appear to be saying
On one hand James thought it could occur at anytime, on the other a future generation of Jew will know it’s near when certain events of Olivet discourse occur, like the great tribulation.