The Origin of Souls: Traducianism and Creationism

[Adventist Heretic]

He listed both views. The one you gave this response to is not the one he holds.

scripture please.

 

[tall73]

scripture please.

Huh?
I am saying the poster you addressed does NOT agree with the part you challenged there. He disagrees with it.

He spelled out both views on the subject, and only holds to one of those views.

 

[tall73]

scripture please.

Ecclesiastes 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.
(ESV)

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I hope you are not marshaling an argument for the pre-existence of human souls....that before the foundation of the world God created a warehouse full of souls and them plots them into a person at conception? Multiple problems here. Multiple.

That's Platonism and clearly is gnostic (soul/good.... body/bad). Contrast this to Genesis....God's creation was good.

The pre-existent of course comes from Plato's theory of ideals. It Plato’s dialogue between Socrates and Pheado, he says,




The Fifth Ecumenical council also known as the Second Council of Constantinople condemned the teaching and Anathematized it as heresy.




Pre-existence solves nothing about the problem of evil because even if we were souls with properties and personalities, God would know each of those personalities "before" creating them (even without time, souls are still ontologically reliant on God for their existence and properties), so he would know who would rebel. I don't know why a loving God wouldn't simply just not create that soul. If God did create that soul this would de facto make God the author of evil and liable for sins continuance.

Creationist have a bear of a time with the problem of evil. You will notice when studying this issue....the problem of evil is clearly ignored. They run away from it always.

My advice to my fellow CF'ers....push the problem of evil. Make them solve two issues at the same time. Is God the author of evil and responsible for its continuance?

Jesus had a pre-existent divine nature, but a created body and soul......this is the only example we have in Scripture.

Well, there is this:

Ephesians 1:4

English Standard Version Anglicised

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4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Well, there is this:​

​

Ephesians 1:4​

​

English Standard Version Anglicised​

​

​

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.

Message sent, is not the meaning of the message received. I have no idea what is being convey here. Zero.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

bump to read later

 

[FireDragon76]

Traducianism seems to be more straightforward.

I tend to think about these things in terms of process metaphysics or qualified nondualism, and Traducianism seems more congruent with those assumptions.

I have never thought that Traducianism precluded the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. One doesn't seem to follow from the other. Traducianism could be true, and Mary could still be conceived without original sin through a special act of divine providence (though personally, this is a doctrine that I very much doubt, at least in the Augustinian conceptualization, but just for the sake of argument, I will concede it).

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Mary could still be conceived without original sin

IMO, it is just as easy for the HS to allow Mary to concieve without Joseph as it is for Jesus to be born sinless from Mary who isn't. Neither is a greater miracle.