The name of "Allah"

[EnemyOfReason]

oh ok.. sorry for the misunderstanding and yes I now understand. Thank you for clarifying.

If I may ask you Slave, what is your faith now if you are no longer Muslim?

Moriah Ruth

I am a Deist, Deism is the lack of faith and a theological standpoint that God has no religion or creed and can only be understood through natural observation.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Ah.. I see,.. so why did you leave Islam?

Moriah Ruth

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Ah.. I see,.. so why did you leave Islam?

Moriah Ruth

2 years of it made me realize it is the closest I have been to being an idiot. Sorry fi that offends people but when surrounded by Muslims you begin to realize that the vast majority of what you are taught is utter garbage when you hold it to the light of rational thought and this is something I always did in the past.

I cannot hate people enough to teach them about Muhammad, a man who slaughtered individuals left and right. Nor can I make it appear that Islam is great despite its obvious flaws.

 

[pat34lee]

2 years of it made me realize it is the closest I have been to being an idiot. Sorry if that offends people but when surrounded by Muslims you begin to realize that the vast majority of what you are taught is utter garbage when you hold it to the light of rational thought and this is something I always did in the past.

I cannot hate people enough to teach them about Muhammad, a man who slaughtered individuals left and right. Nor can I make it appear that Islam is great despite its obvious flaws.

Those flaws were as carefully designed as the rest of islam, including choosing a psychopath as its founder.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

SlaveofGod,

If I understand you correctly is that you were in Islam for 2 yrs. So this tells me that you had converted to Islam. If so why did you convert to Islam and what were you before you converted to Islam?

Moriah Ruth

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Pat,

I agree with you totally.

Moriah Ruth

 

[EnemyOfReason]

SlaveofGod,

If I understand you correctly is that you were in Islam for 2 yrs. So this tells me that you had converted to Islam. If so why did you convert to Islam and what were you before you converted to Islam?

Moriah Ruth

I was a non-denominational Christian before I became a Muslim

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Ahh.. I see.. so why did you leave Christianity and go to Islam? And then you left Islam and now a Deist. This sounds to me that you are still searching for answers and truth.

Did you not find that in the Christian faith?

We can discuss this in PM if you would like. I don't want to derail Visionary's thread.

Moriah Ruth

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Ahh.. I see.. so why did you leave Christianity and go to Islam? And then you left Islam and now a Deist. This sounds to me that you are still searching for answers and truth.

Did you not find that in the Christian faith?

We can discuss this in PM if you would like. I don't want to derail Visionary's thread.

Moriah Ruth

I continued this in a new thread . No need to make this a PM if others have something to discuss.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7771540/#post64079826

 

[anisavta]

And this is why searching for a relationship with the Creator purely through religion will always leave one with dissatisfaction.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Anisavta,

You are so right. So one keeps searching until they think they have found the truth, however in essence they haven't. Therefore their searching is all in vain.

Moriah Ruth

 

[Hoshiyya]

Does the Qur'an not mention the works of Nuh(Noah), Yusuf, Musa(Moses), Ibrahim(Abraham)?

The Qur'an contains all of the Tawrat to a greater extent. The issue is not with content but with the literary style of the Qur'an which is far different. This is why Muslim believe in so many things the Jews do while Jews view them as copy-cats.

The Qur'an is actually plagiarized to be frank.

Few of the 613 Mitzvot (commandments) are actually found in the Quran. The theology is one thing, but the jurisprudence is very different. Are the Quran and Torah not that different compared to say the Bhagavad Git? Sure. But are they the same? No they are very different.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Few of the 613 Mitzvot (commandments) are actually found in the Quran. The theology is one thing, but the jurisprudence is very different. Are the Quran and Torah not that different compared to say the Bhagavad Git? Sure. But are they the same? No they are very different.

Jurisprudence of fiqh is not found int he Qur'an at all mostly, it is found in the ahadith and narration of Muhammad.

You must not know about Islam well because your statement is a redundancy.

Also who said the Qur'and and torah are the same? The Qur'an is just generally closer to the Tawrah then it is to the Bible.

Fiqh is even closer to Judaism while Christianity technically has none. Muslims and Jews slaughter their animals in a very similar manner I may add.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Even most Jews I know would disagree with you. The Qur'an consists of the same content as the Tawrat and Islamic fiqh do not differ than Jewish custom as a whole.

Islam is very Jewish to an extent and less Christian.

" the Tawrat and Islamic fiqh do not differ than Jewish custom as a whole. "

Come on . . .
They have different calendar.
The Muslims reject the entire Jewish idea of God having given them the land of Israel.
Their dietary laws are different.
The marriage laws are different.
They never had the same concept of a temple.
The circumcision is performed at a different age and with different intent.
There is no concept in Islam of being adopted into the covenant-nation of Israel.
Like I said, the theology of "who/what is God" is very similar, but everything else in Islamic tradition and Quran, especially social and legal, varies greatly as to what similarity it has to the Old and New Testaments.

As to the resemble to Christianity, there is one major point that obviates any resemble and it is this: They reject the Crucifixion. Now, they don't reject it's significance or interpret it differently, no no, they reject that it ever even occurred.

You mentioned Islam as being built on a mix of paganism and Judaism and to a lesser extent Christianity (which I think may be perhaps simplistic or only partially correct).

(imo) Islam is to some degree derivate of Gnosticism, I think is perhaps worth adding - that is where they get their pseudo-Docetic Christology.

Compare the Islamic substitution interpretation of Messiah's death with Irenaeus relay of the Gnostic view of the passion:

"he [the Messiah] did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all."
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, I.24 (St. Irenaeus)

 

[Hoshiyya]

Jurisprudence of fiqh is not found int he Qur'an at all mostly, it is found in the ahadith and narration of Muhammad.

You must not know about Islam well because your statement is a redundancy.

Also who said the Qur'and and torah are the same? The Qur'an is just generally closer to the Tawrah then it is to the Bible.

Fiqh is even closer to Judaism while Christianity technically has none. Muslims and Jews slaughter their animals in a very similar manner I may add.

Sigh.

You said "The Qur'an contains all of the Tawrat to a greater extent. The issue is not with content but with the literary style of the Qur'an which is far different. "

The Quran contains many commandments not found in the Bible, and omits many commandments found in the Bible. Besides Monotheism and symbolic things (like names, prophets, genealogies) the similarities are not as great as some might have it.

"Fiqh is even closer to Judaism "

you're kidding me right?

 

[EnemyOfReason]

" the Tawrat and Islamic fiqh do not differ than Jewish custom as a whole. "

Come on . . .
They have different calendar.
The Muslims reject the entire Jewish idea of God having given them the land of Israel.
Their dietary laws are different.
The marriage laws are different.
They never had the same concept of a temple.
The circumcision is performed at a different age and with different intent.
There is no concept in Islam of being adopted into the covenant-nation of Israel.
Like I said, the theology of "who/what is God" is very similar, but everything else in Islamic tradition and Quran, especially social and legal, varies greatly as to what similarity it has to the Old and New Testaments.

As to the resemble to Christianity, there is one major point that obviates any resemble and it is this: They reject the Crucifixion. Now, they don't reject it's significance or interpret it differently, no no, they reject that it ever even occurred.

You mentioned Islam as being built on a mix of paganism and Judaism and to a lesser extent Christianity (which I think may be perhaps simplistic or only partially correct).

(imo) Islam is to some degree derivate of Gnosticism, I think is perhaps worth adding - that is where they get their pseudo-Docetic Christology.

Compare the Islamic substitution interpretation of Messiah's death with Irenaeus relay of the Gnostic view of the passion:

"he [the Messiah] did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all."
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, I.24 (St. Irenaeus)

I am an ex Muslim and very little of what you are saying is truthful.

They both have a calender. It does not matter if they have the same or different calender.

Islam is created as a mock form of Judaism. They both have similar concepts of temples. It doe snot have to be the same. This is why Islam is Islam and Judaism is Judaism.

How are you not getting this?

They also have very similar dietary laws as well.

I recommend you actually learn something about what you are opposing.


The fact that the Qur'an contains a good portion of Gnostic texts is irrelevant as I am only talking about its similarities with Judaism.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Those flaws were as carefully designed as the rest of islam, including choosing a psychopath as its founder.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Hoshiyya]

I am an ex Muslim and very little of what you are saying is truthful.

They both have a calender. It does not matter if they have the same or different calender.

Islam is created as a mock form of Judaism. They both have similar concepts of temples. It doe snot have to be the same. This is why Islam is Islam and Judaism is Judaism.

How are you not getting this?

They also have very similar dietary laws as well.

I recommend you actually learn something about what you are opposing.


The fact that the Qur'an contains a good portion of Gnostic texts is irrelevant as I am only talking about its similarities with Judaism.

You must know nothing of Torah then, since you claim "the Qur'an contains all of the Tawrat to a greater extent", per your words.

" They both have a calender. It does not matter if they have the same or different calender. "

So do Hindus, so what is your point ?

Once you actually get into details, the differences are greater than you expect.

"They both have similar concepts of temples. It does not have to be the same. This is why Islam is Islam and Judaism is Judaism."

I cannot think of a single people in the world without a calendar in fact. Most have temples too. But getting into the details, one sees how different they are.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

You must know nothing of Torah then, since you claim "the Qur'an contains all of the Tawrat to a greater extent", per your words.

You have no conception of words. I said the Qur'an contains all of the tawrah to a greater extent. It contains (although condensed) the same identical stories found int he torah. They have been altered for Islamic emphasis but nonetheless are intact. This does not mean anything else other then what it implies.

" They both have a calender. It does not matter if they have the same or different calender. "

So do Hindus, so what is your point ?

Hindus have many calenders.
The point is that the Islamic calender is modeled after the Judaic one. All things about Islam are modeled after Judaism. It is just an Arabic format with Islamic theology behind it. It is a copy.

Once you actually get into details, the differences are greater than you expect.

But you are far to illiterate to read what I am saying as we are not talking about details. Details are what separate the religions.

Hence it is of no relevance. Must I really repeat myself this many times?

"They both have similar concepts of temples. It does not have to be the same. This is why Islam is Islam and Judaism is Judaism."

I cannot think of a single people in the world without a calendar in fact. Most have temples too. But getting into the details, one sees how different they are.

There is no way on earth you can be serious. You must have some burning hatred against Muslims and do not wish to be compared to them. No other explanation.

We are not talking about details but the general conception of Islam which was undeniably modeled after Judaism.

 

[pat34lee]

What do you mean by that?

Islam was not formed in a vacuum, or by one man. If the Catholic church did not fully engineer the training and rise of (M) to power, they at least had a hand in it.
How the Vatican created Islam

This is why so many muslims venerate Mary.