The Mark of the Beast Is ‘Active Even Now,’ Pastor Matt Chandler Says

[3 Resurrections]

So what your saying Revelation has been & gone

What I'm saying is that there is one specific set of prophecies in Revelation that were NOT fulfilled back then in John's generation. These prophecies that were reserved for times after John's immediate future were what the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4. John was forbidden to write those prophecies down, and was told to "seal up" those prophecies. Anytime scripture puts a seal on something, its fulfillment is reserved for a later time period down the road. Whatever prophecies those 7 thunders uttered, they did NOT apply to John's own days or to his first-century audience's immediate future.

Contrariwise, whatever was being unsealed in Revelation was then coming to pass in those first-century days.

 

[Apple Sky]

What I'm saying is that there is one specific set of prophecies in Revelation that were NOT fulfilled back then in John's generation. These prophecies that were reserved for times after John's immediate future were what the 7 thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4. John was forbidden to write those prophecies down, and was told to "seal up" those prophecies. Anytime scripture puts a seal on something, its fulfillment is reserved for a later time period down the road. Whatever prophecies those 7 thunders uttered, they did NOT apply to John's own days or to his first-century audience's immediate future.

Contrariwise, whatever was being unsealed in Revelation was then coming to pass in those first-century days.

Gosh, I wonder what these 7 thunders could be ??

 

[Tigger Boy]

There is no problem. The book of Revelation was NOT written in AD 90. That late date is not a fact. The internal evidence of datable events within Revelation itself narrows down the composition of the book to a time frame somewhere between late AD 59 and no later than early AD 60 - just prior to the catastrophic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake. It doesn't matter what external sources are "generally understood" to say about the composition date of Revelation if this imminent AD 60 Laodicean earthquake and other datable events within the book itself contradict that late-date theory.

Aside from pinning down the composition date of Revelation, the book's prophecies are not all related to future events. In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write "the things thou hast seen" (in the past), "the things that are" (things presently going on in John's days), and "the things that are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (events in John's immediate future). The Tyrian shekel "mark" for Temple use was something that had begun being required in the past since 19 BC, was still presently being required in John's days in AD 59 / 60, and would yet continue in the immediate future to be required until AD 66 when the Zealot rebellion broke out against Rome.

As for the Rev. 13 Sea Beast, it had originated back in ancient days, starting with Nebuchadnezzar's first deportation of Jewish nobility from Jerusalem to Babylon back in 607 BC. We know this Rev. 13 Sea Beast is this ancient because Rev. 13:2 tells us that it had those combined features of a "lion", "bear", and a "leopard" - all of which were related to the ancient pagan empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece respectively.

The Rev. 13 Beast which had come out of the land (of Israel) was the corrupt religious leadership with its two-horned Pharisee / Sadducee power structure which had been requiring that Tyrian shekel to be used for Temple transactions and for the annual Temple Tax payment. That Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast with its corrupt religious leadership spoke lies, just like the Dragon, as Christ accused them of being liars just like their Father the Devil. The priesthood's Tyrian shekel coin requirement was minted for the Temple's use by permission from Rome, and it had Rome's demi-god Hercules on the obverse side and the stamped "KP" initials on the reverse, showing that Rome had authorized its production. Rev. 13 was not a warning that this Land Beast would arise and require a "mark" giving homage to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast ; Rev. 13 was making a statement of a present, ongoing reality for Israel in John's days.

Every time an Israelite paid that onerous fee to the money-changers for exchanging other currency for the required Tyrian shekel, they were given a grim reminder once again that Rome held control over their own temple's priesthood, which was operating in conjunction with their Roman overlords. This caused their own people to participate in a practice that broke God's laws and gave homage to Rome and its pagan gods in the process.

Three Resurrections, If the sea beast (SB) of Rev. 13 is ancient Babylon as you claim, then explain how the following identifiers given within prophecy pertaining to the SB collaborate it being Babylon:

The SB has ten horns, bearing crowns as it emerges from the sea. What do these horns represent, and how do they tie into Babylon?

It also has seven heads, all having blasphemous names, one had a fatal wound that was healed before it emerges. What do these heads represent, and what is the head that had the fatal wound that was healed, all in support of Babylon?

The whole world will follow this best when it appears. Did the whole word follow and worship Babylon when it came into power?

It would exercise it’s power for forty two months. If you understand this to be day/yr. time, 1260 years, or literal time, how does Babylon fulfill this specification, when historically it is know to have ruled from 605 BC to 538 BC, 167 years?

(Rev. 17: 1-18) Is another prophecy of which more insights are given about the beast having ten horns and seven heads. Can you make sense of this chapter by inserting “Babylon” in the vss., referring to the beast having ten horns and seven heads and make an sense out of it?

If your answer is yes, please paraphrase that chapter for me.

You claim the beast coming out of the earth, was the corrupted Pharisee’s / Sadducee’s, if I understand you correctly. John saw in vision that this beast performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven, and because of these great signs it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. (meaning all of mankind) Since you think Rev. 13 is history, what proof do you have to support the fulfillment of these events?

John saw that It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a “mark on their hand or forehead. (All people in this contexts means all inhabitants of the earth) Within the contexts it is a no brainer that the “mark” is literal and must be received on the hand or forehead bearing the number 666, a number of a man, not a minted coin which is quite different, even through you may be right about that coins usage at that time, it does not fulfill the specifics of prophecy.

These are fair questions for any student of prophecy to answer. But until ones interpretation can show fidelity to all the specifics given within prophecy there is no way of knowing the true identity to which they point.

I believe there is a much better interpretation of (Rev. 13) which I posted a short while ago. The thread is found in, Fundamentalist Christians, titled, To understand the “mark” one must first understand the trumpet judgements.

In order to better understand what makes the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation different than all other prophecies, I encourage you to read a thread I posted in, Eschatology- Endtimes & Prophecy forum, It’s titled, God Does Not Give Up.
Blessings

 

[Tigger Boy]

There is no problem. The book of Revelation was NOT written in AD 90. That late date is not a fact. The internal evidence of datable events within Revelation itself narrows down the composition of the book to a time frame somewhere between late AD 59 and no later than early AD 60 - just prior to the catastrophic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake. It doesn't matter what external sources are "generally understood" to say about the composition date of Revelation if this imminent AD 60 Laodicean earthquake and other datable events within the book itself contradict that late-date theory.

Aside from pinning down the composition date of Revelation, the book's prophecies are not all related to future events. In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write "the things thou hast seen" (in the past), "the things that are" (things presently going on in John's days), and "the things that are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (events in John's immediate future). The Tyrian shekel "mark" for Temple use was something that had begun being required in the past since 19 BC, was still presently being required in John's days in AD 59 / 60, and would yet continue in the immediate future to be required until AD 66 when the Zealot rebellion broke out against Rome.

As for the Rev. 13 Sea Beast, it had originated back in ancient days, starting with Nebuchadnezzar's first deportation of Jewish nobility from Jerusalem to Babylon back in 607 BC. We know this Rev. 13 Sea Beast is this ancient because Rev. 13:2 tells us that it had those combined features of a "lion", "bear", and a "leopard" - all of which were related to the ancient pagan empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece respectively.

The Rev. 13 Beast which had come out of the land (of Israel) was the corrupt religious leadership with its two-horned Pharisee / Sadducee power structure which had been requiring that Tyrian shekel to be used for Temple transactions and for the annual Temple Tax payment. That Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast with its corrupt religious leadership spoke lies, just like the Dragon, as Christ accused them of being liars just like their Father the Devil. The priesthood's Tyrian shekel coin requirement was minted for the Temple's use by permission from Rome, and it had Rome's demi-god Hercules on the obverse side and the stamped "KP" initials on the reverse, showing that Rome had authorized its production. Rev. 13 was not a warning that this Land Beast would arise and require a "mark" giving homage to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast ; Rev. 13 was making a statement of a present, ongoing reality for Israel in John's days.

Every time an Israelite paid that onerous fee to the money-changers for exchanging other currency for the required Tyrian shekel, they were given a grim reminder once again that Rome held control over their own temple's priesthood, which was operating in conjunction with their Roman overlords. This caused their own people to participate in a practice that broke God's laws and gave homage to Rome and its pagan gods in the process.

Three Resurrections, I have questions about your interpretation of the two beast of Rev. 13.

If the sea beast (SB) of Rev. 13 is ancient Babylon as you claim, then explain how the following specifications given within that prophecy pertaining to the SB collaborate further that the identity is Babylon:

The SB resembled a leopard, had feet as a bear, and a mouth like a lion. Whereas, Babylon the first beast Daniel describes in (Dan. 7:4) looks like a lion, had wings of an eagle. Prophecy described these two beast differently. Should students of prophecy ignore the difference?

The SB has ten horns, bearing crowns as it emerges from the sea. What do these horns represent, and how do they relate to Babylon?

It also has seven heads, all having blasphemous names, one had a fatal wound that was healed before it emerges. What do these heads represent, and what is the head that had the fatal wound that was healed, all in support of Babylon?

The whole world will follow this best when it appears. Did the whole word follow and worship Babylon when it came into power?

It would exercise it’s power for forty two months. If you understand this to be day/yr. time, 1260 years, or literal time, how does Babylon fulfill this specification, when historically it is know to have ruled from 605 BC to 538 BC, 167 years?

(Rev. 17: 1-18) Is another prophecy of which more insights are given about the beast having ten horns and seven heads. Can you make sense of this chapter by inserting “Babylon” in the vss., referring to the beast having ten horns and seven heads and make an sense out of it?

If your answer is yes, please paraphrase that chapter for me.

You claim the beast coming out of the earth, was the corrupted Pharisee’s / Sadducee’s, if I understand you correctly. John saw in vision that this beast performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven, and because of these great signs it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. (meaning all of mankind) Since you think Rev. 13 is history, what proof do you have to support the fulfillment of these events?

John saw that It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a “mark on their hand or forehead. (All people in this contexts means all inhabitants of the earth) Within the contexts it is a no brainer that the “mark” is literal and must be received on the hand or forehead bearing the number 666, a number of a man, not a minted coin which is quite different, even through you may be right about that coins usage at that time, it does not fulfill the specifics of prophecy.

These are fair questions for any student of prophecy to answer. But until ones interpretation can show fidelity to all the specifics given there is no way of knowing the true identity to which they point.

I believe there is a much better interpretation of (Rev. 13) which I posted a short while ago. The thread is found in, Fundamentalist Christians, titled, To understand the “mark” one must first understand the trumpet judgements.

In order to better understand what makes the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation different than all other prophecies, I encourage you to read a thread I posted in, Eschatology- Endtimes & Prophecy forum, It’s titled, God Does Not Give Up.


Blessings

 

[3 Resurrections]

Three Resurrections, If the sea beast (SB) of Rev. 13 is ancient Babylon as you claim, then explain how the following identifiers given within prophecy pertaining to the SB collaborate it being Babylon:

Let me clarify a bit here.

No, the Sea Beast was not only composed of the Babylonian empire. It only started with that pagan empire of Babylon, and continued through the Medo-Persian empire, then the Greek empire, and was finishing up with its last phase of existence as the Roman empire in John's days. Essentially, the Sea Beast was a symbol of all the pagan empires which had held control over the nation of Israel ever since the Jewish nobility - the "good figs" - were first deported to Babylon in 607 BC.

We know this Sea Beast had to be a conglomerate combination of all of these past pagan empires because of the multiple features of the "lion", the "bear", and the "leopard" which were included in the Sea Beast's description in Rev. 13:2. Anyone who knew their Daniel scriptures back in John's days would have recognized these animals' connection with the former pagan empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece respectively.

Rome was the last empire included in this Sea Beast, because Rev. 13:2 says that Satan gave his throne (in the city of Pergamos) to the Sea Beast, along with great authority. This gift of the Pergamos throne and the entire Pergamos kingdom by its last dying king Attalus III was handed over to the Roman Republic in 133 BC, which shows that ancient Rome was also connected with this Sea Beast as its final phase of existence.

The last Roman phase of the Sea Beast was the one with the seven heads (the 7 mountains which Rome sat upon), and 10 crowned horns (the 10 emperors from Julius Caesar on down). One of the heads (one of the 7 mountains Rome sat upon) received a deadly wound. I believe that means the imperial Palatine Hill received major damage in the AD 64 fire at Rome. This wound was "healed" by Nero's extensive renovation program when he built his fabulous "Golden House" and imperial villa on the Palatine Hill with his bronze 98' tall Colossus of Nero in the vestibule of his new Domus Aurea.

It was granted to Nero by God to "make war forty and two months" on the saints (Rev. 13:5-7), and to overcome them, which Nero did after blaming the AD 64 fire at Rome on the Christians. Nero's pogrom against the Christians lasted a literal 42 months from late AD 64 until AD 68, just before Nero's suicide death.

(Rev. 17: 1-18) Is another prophecy of which more insights are given about the beast having ten horns and seven heads. Can you make sense of this chapter by inserting “Babylon” in the vss., referring to the beast having ten horns and seven heads and make an sense out of it?

This is an entirely different Beast in Revelation 17 from the other Rev. 13 Sea Beast. There are no less than THREE BEASTS in Revelation. The Rev. 13 Sea Beast had a 666-year biographical history of pagan empires controlling Israel as of John's writing Revelation. But this Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness with the harlot "Mystery Babylon" (Old Jerusalem) riding on its back had a different biographical history altogether. Everything concerning this Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness in one way or another was connected with the land of Israel up until AD 70 when that Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast was destroyed utterly - heads, horns, harlot, and all.

This Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast was a representation of the independent kingdom nation of Israel. This independent kingdom of Israel once "WAS" in existence (back under the Maccabees victories), then it "IS NOT" in existence in John's days (after Pompey the Great put Judea under tribute to Rome in 63 BC). Then it was "ABOUT TO RISE from the abyss" in John's near future (when the Zealot rebellion seized control in AD 66 over their own nation and began the war against Rome). It was also "ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION" soon after in John's days (in AD 70 when Israel's capital city of Jerusalem was taken by Rome and its captives were sent into all nations).

This Scarlet Beast / independent kingdom nation of Israel had 7 heads as mountains (the 7 mountains which Jerusalem sat upon), and 10 horns with no crowns (which were the 10 generals Josephus named as chosen to prepare Israel's districts for war against Rome). Those 7 heads were also 7 kings (7 high priest kings of the house of Annas which held a virtual monopoly on that position from AD 6 through AD 66). Scripture defines the title "kings of the earth" as being high priests of the land of Israel, and that is how these 7 "kings" are to be understood.

Five of those high priest kings had died as of John writing Revelation, one 6th high priest king still "IS" alive at the time (Theophilus ben Annas), and the 7th high priest king (Ananas ben Annas) had "not yet come" into the high priest office. Ananas would hold that office for only "a short space" of 3 months in AD 63 before he was deposed for abusing his role as high priest. (This means John had to be writing Revelation sometime prior to that approaching AD 63 year, and while Theophilus ben Annas was still alive ).

The 8th high priest king was the grandson of Annas, Mattathias ben Theophilus, who came into the high priest office in AD 66. Mattathias also became the titular head of the Scarlet Beast in AD 66, because the nation of Israel had just cast off its Roman governance and claimed its independence once again. This 8th high priest king acting as the head of the Scarlet Beast in AD 66 was "of the 7", because Mattathias had genealogically descended as a grandson of Annas, and was family-related to all 7 of those former high priest kings.

You claim the beast coming out of the earth, was the corrupted Pharisee’s / Sadducee’s, if I understand you correctly. John saw in vision that this beast performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven, and because of these great signs it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. (meaning all of mankind) Since you think Rev. 13 is history, what proof do you have to support the fulfillment of these events?

That Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast was exercising its role of the priesthood in making fire come down from heaven on the temple altar. God's fire on that altar was supposed to be kept continually burning by the priesthood. God had originally ignited the altar fire in the establishment of both the tabernacle and the temple, and the priests were to keep it burning as part of their service in the temple. The Pharisees also practiced exorcisms in Christ's and the apostles' days (the "miracles" in Rev. 13:14 which this Judean Land Beast performed "in the sight of" of the Roman Sea Beast). The priesthood was practicing all these wonders on the temple grounds with the Roman Sea Beast's governor and his garrisoned troops having a direct line of sight as to what was happening on in the temple grounds just opposite to their vantage point from the Roman Fortress Antonia position.

John saw that It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a “mark on their hand or forehead. (All people in this contexts means all inhabitants of the earth) Within the contexts it is a no brainer that the “mark” is literal and must be received on the hand or forehead bearing the number 666, a number of a man, not a minted coin which is quite different, even through you may be right about that coins usage at that time, it does not fulfill the specifics of prophecy.

The "mark" was NOT said to bear the number 666, since these are mentioned separately in Rev. 13:17 "...he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, OR the number of his name"). All people of every type coming from any nation in the known world whatever to the Jerusalem temple for worship had to receive the Tyrian shekel mark in their hand when they exchanged their own foreign currency for the required Tyrian shekel "mark" in order to either buy or sell sacrificial items. "The number of his name" phrase only describes the 666 number of years in which that Sea Beast had a named existence since its origin back in 607 BC. But the "mark" was not required during that entire 666 years of time - only from 19 BC up until AD 66.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Let me clarify a bit here.

No, the Sea Beast was not only composed of the Babylonian empire. It only started with that pagan empire of Babylon, and continued through the Medo-Persian empire, then the Greek empire, and was finishing up with its last phase of existence as the Roman empire in John's days. Essentially, the Sea Beast was a symbol of all the pagan empires which had held control over the nation of Israel ever since the Jewish nobility - the "good figs" - were first deported to Babylon in 607 BC.

We know this Sea Beast had to be a conglomerate combination of all of these past pagan empires because of the multiple features of the "lion", the "bear", and the "leopard" which were included in the Sea Beast's description in Rev. 13:2. Anyone who knew their Daniel scriptures back in John's days would have recognized these animals' connection with the former pagan empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece respectively.

Rome was the last empire included in this Sea Beast, because Rev. 13:2 says that Satan gave his throne (in the city of Pergamos) to the Sea Beast, along with great authority. This gift of the Pergamos throne and the entire Pergamos kingdom by its last dying king Attalus III was handed over to the Roman Republic in 133 BC, which shows that ancient Rome was also connected with this Sea Beast as its final phase of existence.

The last Roman phase of the Sea Beast was the one with the seven heads (the 7 mountains which Rome sat upon), and 10 crowned horns (the 10 emperors from Julius Caesar on down). One of the heads (one of the 7 mountains Rome sat upon) received a deadly wound. I believe that means the imperial Palatine Hill received major damage in the AD 64 fire at Rome. This wound was "healed" by Nero's extensive renovation program when he built his fabulous "Golden House" and imperial villa on the Palatine Hill with his bronze 98' tall Colossus of Nero in the vestibule of his new Domus Aurea.

It was granted to Nero by God to "make war forty and two months" on the saints (Rev. 13:5-7), and to overcome them, which Nero did after blaming the AD 64 fire at Rome on the Christians. Nero's pogrom against the Christians lasted a literal 42 months from late AD 64 until AD 68, just before Nero's suicide death.


This is an entirely different Beast in Revelation 17 from the other Rev. 13 Sea Beast. There are no less than THREE BEASTS in Revelation. The Rev. 13 Sea Beast had a 666-year biographical history of pagan empires controlling Israel as of John's writing Revelation. But this Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness with the harlot "Mystery Babylon" (Old Jerusalem) riding on its back had a different biographical history altogether. Everything concerning this Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness in one way or another was connected with the land of Israel up until AD 70 when that Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast was destroyed utterly - heads, horns, harlot, and all.

This Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast was a representation of the independent kingdom nation of Israel. This independent kingdom of Israel once "WAS" in existence (back under the Maccabees victories), then it "IS NOT" in existence in John's days (after Pompey the Great put Judea under tribute to Rome in 63 BC). Then it was "ABOUT TO RISE from the abyss" in John's near future (when the Zealot rebellion seized control in AD 66 over their own nation and began the war against Rome). It was also "ABOUT TO...GO INTO DESTRUCTION" soon after in John's days (in AD 70 when Israel's capital city of Jerusalem was taken by Rome and its captives were sent into all nations).

This Scarlet Beast / independent kingdom nation of Israel had 7 heads as mountains (the 7 mountains which Jerusalem sat upon), and 10 horns with no crowns (which were the 10 generals Josephus named as chosen to prepare Israel's districts for war against Rome). Those 7 heads were also 7 kings (7 high priest kings of the house of Annas which held a virtual monopoly on that position from AD 6 through AD 66). Scripture defines the title "kings of the earth" as being high priests of the land of Israel, and that is how these 7 "kings" are to be understood.

Five of those high priest kings had died as of John writing Revelation, one 6th high priest king still "IS" alive at the time (Theophilus ben Annas), and the 7th high priest king (Ananas ben Annas) had "not yet come" into the high priest office. Ananas would hold that office for only "a short space" of 3 months in AD 63 before he was deposed for abusing his role as high priest. (This means John had to be writing Revelation sometime prior to that approaching AD 63 year, and while Theophilus ben Annas was still alive ).

The 8th high priest king was the grandson of Annas, Mattathias ben Theophilus, who came into the high priest office in AD 66. Mattathias also became the titular head of the Scarlet Beast in AD 66, because the nation of Israel had just cast off its Roman governance and claimed its independence once again. This 8th high priest king acting as the head of the Scarlet Beast in AD 66 was "of the 7", because Mattathias had genealogically descended as a grandson of Annas, and was family-related to all 7 of those former high priest kings.


That Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast was exercising its role of the priesthood in making fire come down from heaven on the temple altar. God's fire on that altar was supposed to be kept continually burning by the priesthood. God had originally ignited the altar fire in the establishment of both the tabernacle and the temple, and the priests were to keep it burning as part of their service in the temple. The Pharisees also practiced exorcisms in Christ's and the apostles' days (the "miracles" in Rev. 13:14 which this Judean Land Beast performed "in the sight of" of the Roman Sea Beast). The priesthood was practicing all these wonders on the temple grounds with the Roman Sea Beast's governor and his garrisoned troops having a direct line of sight as to what was happening on in the temple grounds just opposite to their vantage point from the Roman Fortress Antonia position.


The "mark" was NOT said to bear the number 666, since these are mentioned separately in Rev. 13:17 "...he that had the mark, OR the name of the beast, OR the number of his name"). All people of every type coming from any nation in the known world whatever to the Jerusalem temple for worship had to receive the Tyrian shekel mark in their hand when they exchanged their own foreign currency for the required Tyrian shekel "mark" in order to either buy or sell sacrificial items. "The number of his name" phrase only describes the 666 number of years in which that Sea Beast had a named existence since its origin back in 607 BC. But the "mark" was not required during that entire 666 years of time - only from 19 BC up until AD 66.

Three Resurrections, Enjoying our exchange of thought. I will respond to this post, but would like to use your method of putting my statement in a box, with your comment below. Not savvy on how to do that. Would you please walk me through the steps? Thanks

 

[3 Resurrections]

Three Resurrections, Enjoying our exchange of thought. I will respond to this post, but would like to use your method of putting my statement in a box, with your comment below. Not savvy on how to do that. Would you please walk me through the steps? Thanks

I salute your patience if you took the time to read that whole comment of mine. Brevity is not my strong suit!

If you want to quote just a short phrase, a sentence, or a paragraph or two of what I wrote, just left click on my comment and keep holding until you have highlighted whatever portion of it that you want to quote.
Then below the highlighted section you just selected, a new bar with "Quote / reply" will show up. Click on "Quote".
Then in your own box where you are posting a comment, a bar at the bottom will now show up saying "Insert quotes". Click on that.
A new box then shows up at the top of your screen where you can review the quoted part, and then click on "Quote message".
Once you click on that "Quote message", your own comment box will now show the quoted part within its own box, with the author's username included.

 

[Tigger Boy]

I salute your patience if you took the time to read that whole comment of mine. Brevity is not my strong suit!

If you want to quote just a short phrase, a sentence, or a paragraph or two of what I wrote, just left click on my comment and keep holding until you have highlighted whatever portion of it that you want to quote.
Then below the highlighted section you just selected, a new bar with "Quote / reply" will show up. Click on "Quote".
Then in your own box where you are posting a comment, a bar at the bottom will now show up saying "Insert quotes". Click on that.
A new box then shows up at the top of your screen where you can review the quoted part, and then click on "Quote message".
Once you click on that "Quote message", your own comment box will now show the quoted part within its own box, with the author's username included.

Ok, in following your steps, after highlighting the first sentence of this post as a test trial, and selecting quote, a box did appear and I did select "insert quotes" and when the next box appeared it showed 8 previous quotes from other post, and yours I just selected at the bottom. I couldn't get yours alone, they all showed up in my reply box. How does one clear out previous quotes? Meanwhile I"ll play with it.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Let me clarify a bit here.

No, the Sea Beast was not only composed of the Babylonian empire. It only started with that pagan empire of Babylon, and continued through the Medo-Persian empire, then the Greek empire, and was finishing up with its last phase of existence as the Roman empire in John's days. Essentially, the Sea Beast was a symbol of all the pagan empires which had held control over the nation of Israel ever since the Jewish nobility - the "good figs" - were first deported to Babylon in 607 BC.

It was granted to Nero by God to "make war forty and two months" on the saints (Rev. 13:5-7), and to overcome them, which Nero did after blaming the AD 64 fire at Rome on the Christians. Nero's pogrom against the Christians lasted a literal 42 months from late AD 64 until AD 68, just before Nero's suicide death.

Three Resurrections. Appreciate your lengthy explanations. I am of the same mind. Understanding prophecy is the study of the deep things of God, and one has to go deep to understand the truths buried there. I had this written out before you sent me your instructions, I’ll try it latter. Thanks

IN response to your first quote above, prophecy which is of God, states that the SB would have power for forty two months, (I believe this is literal time not Day/yr.) no more, no less. Whereas, you promote the teaching that the SB came up out of the sea at the rise of Babylon in 605 BC, and lasted to 60 AD. That time span consist of 665 years. This makes the reign of the SB as you interprete it longer than the fort two months as prophesied, which is contrary to the more sure word of God.

IN the second quote above you factor in the forty two months mentioned within prophecy, but at the end of the 665 year reign of the SB, not the total reign as prophecy indicates. Again such an interpretation is a misrepresentation of prophecy, which I pray you can see.

These facts alone in and of themselves debunks all other points one would have claiming the SB is symbolic of the former Babylon, Medo- Persian, Greek and Roman empires of antiquities. Since this interpretation of the SB has been shown to be incorrect by ignoring the specifics within prophecy, I assume the same practices have been used in regard to all other prophecies within Revelation, therefore, they too most likely would be seriously flawed as well.

Perhaps the interpretation your sharing is your private interpretation or that of another expositor. What I gather at this point in our conversation is that It appears that someone or you had assumptions and preconceived ideas about Revelations story and have forced portions of the prophecies to fit personal bias. This is a practice that has been ongoing for centuries and has produced hundreds of interpretations of the Book.

I will commend you on your knowledge of ancient history and it’s effect on Israel. I surmise perhaps you may have been a teacher or professor.
Your slant on Revelation seems to be, to warn the Jewish people of their condition during the decline of Roman rule.

Aside from the messages to the seven churches that actually were in existence, the rest of Rev., as I understand it covers the predetermined events of how God will separate His sheep from Satin’s goats, while at the same time Satin is waging an all out war to kill or capture as many individuals as he can. The first event is that of Rev. 4&5, which began in 1798. The rest of the events continue through to the time when Christ sets up His earthly kingdom. That said the events will include all of mankind, not Israel up until the temple is destroyed in AD 70.

This understanding seems to me to make perfect sense, since Christ ended His relationship with the biological nation of Israel when they failed to except Him as the Son of God, by the end of the 70 weeks/490 yrs., of (Dan. 9:24-27) Therefore, God ended His covenant with the Nation of Israel, and it’s priesthood at the time of Christ death, signified by tearing the curtain separating the Holy from the Most Holy, in the inter sanctuary. However, the nation of Israel failed to except this reality But the disciples did, and tried to convince the Leadership otherwise and were martyred, or imprisoned for doing so. Thus God, totally destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The earthly temple as you know was a mere shadow of the Heavenly, where, Christ as our High Priest intercedes for mankind to this day.

Of course their is only one true and correct interpretation, God formed the prophecies since He only know the end from the beginning. The Holy Spirit has in the past three decades made it know that within the prophecies of Daniel, God buried four of His natural laws, that once know and practiced will lead prophecy students to the correct interpretation.

One of those natural laws is as follows: Apocalyptic prophecy (those found in Daniel and Revelation) each have a beginning point ant ending point in time, and each event is listed in it’s chronological order. (Fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy proves this to be true.)

Let me demonstrate how following this one law changes ones understanding of prophecy. Rev. 12:7 -14:5 is one of twelve prophecies within Revelations story. This prophecy consists of five events that occur in chronological order.

The devil is cast out of Heaven, on Sunday after Christ arises. (verses 7-12)
The devil persecutes the woman for 1,260 years, 538-1798 (verses 13-16)
The devil wages war on the remnant of the woman, future event. (verses 12:17-13:10)
The devil physically appears, sets up his theocracy and implements the mark of the beast, future event. (verses 13:11-18)
The 144,000 servant/prophets celebrate in a victory ceremony in Heaven, future event. (verses 14:1-14:5)

At first, it might seem strange that the victory celebration of the 144,000 (servant/prophets) is part of this prophecy because the first four events in this prophecy focus on Lucifer’s actions. I believe the victory celebration of the 144,000 is included in this prophecy because the 144,000 will be victorious over Lucifer’s demonic efforts to stop them! With God’s help, ordinary human beings will not only prevail against Lucifer and his demons, they will win the war!

The coming victory celebration of the 144,000 servant/prophets may not seem to be “all that important” today, but a day is coming when their victory celebration will serve as a powerful beacon during a very depressing time. During the sixth trumpet, Lucifer will appear to meet his objectives. He will abolish the religions and governments of the world, kill a third of mankind, and set up a counterfeit theocracy. Even more distressing, many of the remnant of the woman (the saints) will be killed and most, if not all, of the 144,000 servant/prophets will also be martyrs. Thankfully, this dismal situation is not the end of this story! Victory day will surely come. When the remaining saints see the 144,000 resurrected and taken to Heaven, the saints will be overjoyed!

When wicked murderers see the 144,000 taken to Heaven, they will become terrified and panic stricken. The resurrection and ascension of the 144,000 is pivotal in this story because it marks the end of Lucifer’s success. After he gathers the “ first fruits” to Heaven, Jesus will methodically destroy Babylon the Sea Beast and the wicked with the seven bowls of justice. Jesus will avenge the suffering of His saints.

Must likely up will find yourself upset with my response, and decide to end this conversation. For me it has been educational and the first time I have encountered your take on Revelations prophecies. I would like to continue in conversation if your willing and have the following question.

How do you understand God’s plans for separating eight billion people into two groups before He appears, since you understand most of Rev., is past history?

Blessings

 

[3 Resurrections]

when the next box appeared it showed 8 previous quotes from other post, and yours I just selected at the bottom. I couldn't get yours alone, they all showed up in my reply box. How does one clear out previous quotes?

In your own posted comment box, at the bottom left side you can left click on either the "edit" or "delete" icon. Clicking on the "edit" icon will bring up your own comment box, where you can erase sections that you want to either get rid of, or make changes in any way. Once you have corrected it as you want, there is a bar at the bottom which has "Save" on it. Click on that "save" icon, and it will then post your comment with the revisions you have made in it.

Fortunately, that "edit" button stays there all the time at the bottom of your own comments. Sometimes I go back and revise weeks later where I notice mistakes I made in posting a reference, etc.

(By the way, I noticed we share the same home state. I drive by Chapin every time I visit my son and his family.)

IN response to your first quote above, prophecy which is of God, states that the SB would have power for forty two months, (I believe this is literal time not Day/yr.) no more, no less. Whereas, you promote the teaching that the SB came up out of the sea at the rise of Babylon in 605 BC, and lasted to 60 AD. That time span consist of 665 years. This makes the reign of the SB as you interprete it longer than the fort two months as prophesied, which is contrary to the more sure word of God.

Okay, we agree that this 42 months is literal - no more, no less. The rise of the Sea Beast I believe was in 607 BC, when the first deportation of Jerusalem's nobility were taken to Babylon (Daniel and his 3 friends included). This year was 666 years before John was writing Revelation (which was somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60). If John's first-century readers counted backward in time from that AD 59/60 year, they would have arrived at this first humiliating deportation event back in 607 BC. The Sea Beast did not cease to exist at the 666-year mark . It continued to operate until Christ destroyed it - as I believe happened in AD 70.

The literal 42 months, in the margin of the KJV, says that this period was devoted to the Sea Beast "making war" against the saints for that long, and overcoming them - not that the Sea Beast reigned for only those 42 months. This 42 months was a particularly blistering period of persecution for the saints under Nero starting in AD 64. Nero was part of the final Roman phase of the Sea Beast's ancient biographical history, and was the titular leader of the Sea Beast at that point.

At first, it might seem strange that the victory celebration of the 144,000 (servant/prophets) is part of this prophecy because the first four events in this prophecy focus on Lucifer’s actions. I believe the victory celebration of the 144,000 is included in this prophecy because the 144,000 will be victorious over Lucifer’s demonic efforts to stop them! With God’s help, ordinary human beings will not only prevail against Lucifer and his demons, they will win the war!

It's not strange at all. The 144,000 FIRST-FRUITS were part of the prophecy at this point of Satan being cast out of heaven down to earth at Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33 because these were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised out of their graves by "Christ the FIRST-FRUITS" on that same day. These 144,000 First-fruits were not just ordinary humans. They were RESURRECTED saints that came out of their broken-open graves around Jerusalem.

This "remnant of the dead" came to life again as the "First resurrection" event when the millennium had ended in AD 33. Satan went out to make war against them during the years of the early church while these Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints served in the early church in the roles of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. It was the same "remnant of the woman's seed" which Satan went out to make war against in those early days of the church in Acts. That first persecution period which was launched the very day of Stephen's martyrdom lasted those 1,260 days until Paul's conversion on the Damascus Road "swallowed up" that flood of persecution which Paul and the high priesthood had been exercising against the believers in those days.

Must likely up will find yourself upset with my response, and decide to end this conversation.

Good heavens, no, it doesn't upset me to converse with those who hold opposite viewpoints on eschatology. It's just like a rousing conversation with family members around the Thanksgiving table during dinner together.

Be back after a bit after running a business errand...

 

[Tigger Boy]

In your own posted comment box, at the bottom left side you can left click on either the "edit" or "delete" icon. Clicking on the "edit" icon will bring up your own comment box, where you can erase sections that you want to either get rid of, or make changes in any way. Once you have corrected it as you want, there is a bar at the bottom which has "Save" on it. Click on that "save" icon, and it will then post your comment with the revisions you have made in it.

Fortunately, that "edit" button stays there all the time at the bottom of your own comments. Sometimes I go back and revise weeks later where I notice mistakes I made in posting a reference, etc.

(By the way, I noticed we share the same home state. I drive by Chapin every time I visit my son and his family.)

I am aware of all you say here, used it many times in the past. The problem I had earlier was different, yet here I am having highlighted a portion of your recent post and it's in a box of it's own just like I want, and my response below. Miracles never cease.

Where do you life, and your son? I moved from Sac. CA, nearly two years ago. You a native?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where do you life, and your son? I moved from Sac. CA, nearly two years ago. You a native?

A born native of Greenville, that is presently bursting at the seams. My son lives towards Columbia. And I have a SIL that originally came here from California. You moved in the right direction - it probably saved your financial hide And I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not a teacher of any kind with any degrees to brag about - just an ancient high school diploma somewhere in the attic. My 5 cats don't care, as long as I keep dishing out the treats at their command.

How do you understand God’s plans for separating eight billion people into two groups before He appears, since you understand most of Rev., is past history?

Let's see if I can phrase this in a manner that avoids getting my knuckles rapped by the forum powers-that-be.

I am not allowed to say that God staged a Great White Throne judgment in heaven for those who had died before AD 70, or that He intends to stage yet another GWT judgment for the dead in our future in AD 3033.
I am not allowed to say that Christ bodily returned in AD 70 to the Mount of Olives to resurrect all the saints that had died up to that point and take them to heaven with Him. I am also not allowed to say that the "rapture" happened for all the resurrected saints back then in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day (Daniel's 1,335th day).
I am not allowed to say that Paul was right when he told a fearful Felix that "there is about to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" that applied to that first-century generation (Acts 24:15).

 

[Tigger Boy]

A born native of Greenville, that is presently bursting at the seams. My son lives towards Columbia. And I have a SIL that originally came here from California. You moved in the right direction - it probably saved your financial hide And I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not a teacher of any kind with any degrees to brag about - just an ancient high school diploma somewhere in the attic. My 5 cats don't care, as long as I keep dishing out the treats at their command.


Let's see if I can phrase this in a manner that avoids getting my knuckles rapped by the forum powers-that-be.

I am not allowed to say that God staged a Great White Throne judgment in heaven for those who had died before AD 70, or that He intends to stage yet another GWT judgment for the dead in our future in AD 3033.
I am not allowed to say that Christ bodily returned in AD 70 to the Mount of Olives to resurrect all the saints that had died up to that point and take them to heaven with Him. I am also not allowed to say that the "rapture" happened for all the resurrected saints back then in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day (Daniel's 1,335th day).
I am not allowed to say that Paul was right when he told a fearful Felix that "there is about to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" that applied to that first-century generation (Acts 24:15).

Greenville indeed is busting. Had we not bought a house in the Chapin area, before we ever set foot in SC, but rented a yr. before buying, we most likely would have bought in Greenville. Wife and I ride the Swamp Rabbit Trail, from time to time so we know the area. Nice. We a cat people too. The wife spoils them to death. Often think if I could grow fur, and purr, I would get more attention for sure.

 

[JulieB67]

It's not a physical mark... it's the counterfeit of the seal of the Holy Spirit upon the believers.

I agree

This is actually why I was never vaccinated but I had a difficult time explaining it. But by the time I could have been vaccinated it was already symbolic of being aligned with the far left system which stands directly opposed to God.

It was kind of the same for me. I didn't want to follow in the World's footsteps to something I didn't believe in regardless. I was glad I stood my ground.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree.

The Bible does depict this this way. The mark of the beast is the idealogical devotion to and practice of the world system which is in opposition to God.

As Jesus said, if you're not for me you're against me and He will spit the lukewarm out of His mouth, so to speak.

It's not a physical mark... it's the counterfeit of the seal of the Holy Spirit upon the believers.

This is actually why I was never vaccinated but I had a difficult time explaining it. But by the time I could have been vaccinated it was already symbolic of being aligned with the far left system which stands directly opposed to God.

Someone mentioned that to me after I shared my beliefs, they knew about them before talking to me and had wondered how many had my exact beliefs because with them the vaccine really is the mark of the beast.. it's symbolic of being loyal to their authority, and they have no authority over me that God doesn't give them.

While I agree that the mark of the beast is the spiritual opposite of the seal of the Holy Spirit (referred to as "the seal of God" in Revelation), I do not believe a vaccine has anything to do with it. Do you get other vaccines? If so, why would those not reflect that you have the mark of the beast? No, I can't agree that a vaccine has anything to do with it whatsoever. But, I'm glad you recognize the mark of the beast for what it is: a spiritual mark that marks someone as being opposed to God. All whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (world empire/system) and have its mark (Revelation 13:8). All whose names are written in the book of life have the seal of God (the Holy Spirit).

 

[Tigger Boy]

But, I'm glad you recognize the mark of the beast for what it is: a spiritual mark that marks someone as being opposed to God. All whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (world empire/system) and have its mark (Revelation 13:8). All whose names are written in the book of life have the seal of God (the Holy Spirit).

Morning SJ. Is it not reasonable, logical, to think that a physical mark would more easily prove those having it are opposed to God? Is the reason you can't except a physical mark is because who can't understand how a physical mark could be implemented the world over? I would like to share what the Bible reveals in that regard, but first I would like to know if you understand the timing of the mark is during the tribulation? If so share with me what you think the condition of the world will be in at that time?

My reason for asking is that unless one understands the condition the world will be in at that time, the prophecy seems over simplified.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Yes the mark of the beast is active even now, but its something literally worn by sun worshippers for thousands of years... Be careful not to allegorize something that's meant to be taken literal. Read Ezekiel chapters 8-9. The infamous mark of the beast is the symbol of the occultic sun. 666 is the "grand number of the sun." It is the satanic symbol, not the tech combined with it, that makes it evil.
Neuralink is not the mark of the beast, but nevertheless incredibly dangerous. It is the epitome of the original sin- the fullness of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Though a different thing, it will surely come with the package...

That's interesting as Nero had a 100ft image of himself created as Sol the sun god. It was called the Colossus.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Morning SJ. Is it not reasonable, logical, to think that a physical mark would more easily prove those having it are opposed to God?

I think scripture must be spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:9-16) and not necessarily reasonably and logically (according to human reason and logic).

Is the reason you can't except a physical mark is because who can't understand how a physical mark could be implemented the world over?

No, I spiritually discern that the mark of the beast is the spiritual opposite of the seal of God. It's also true that I can't see how a physical mark could be implemented in literally the entire world, but that is a secondary reason for why I believe the mark is spiritual.

I would like to share what the Bible reveals in that regard, but first I would like to know if you understand the timing of the mark is during the tribulation? If so share with me what you think the condition of the world will be in at that time?

I disagree with that. What doctrine do you believe in? Pre-trib dispsensationalist? Post-trib premillennialist? I am an amillennialist.

I take Revelation 13:8 literally in the sense that I believe literally all whose names are not written in the book of life from the beginning of time have worshipped the beast and have the mark of the beast. I believe the beast represents the world kingdom/empire/system at any given time in history. We know from Revelation 17:8 that the beast already existed before John wrote the book. What does that tell you?

Revelation 13 talks about persecution against the church and people being deceived into believing things that oppose God. Has that not already been going on for the past almost 2,000 years? Yes, it has.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

My reason for asking is that unless one understands the condition the world will be in at that time, the prophecy seems over simplified.

The condition of the world, as talked about in Revelation 13, has existed already for the past almost 2,000 years. The dragon and beast have been making war against (persecuting) the church for a long time already. I think reading it all in a literal fashion and thinking that it's talking about a literal physical mark and literal buying and selling of merchandise and such is the only thing that prevents people from seeing this.

The book of Revelation is not a futurist book. Nor is it a preterist book. It was written to seven first century churches in the ancient Roman province of Asia. It contains things that relate to them specifically (in Revelation 2 and 3), but also to ongoing things and things that would occur some time after that up to the second coming of Christ. To think the book is all about the future is a mistake.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[TheCabinetGuy]

That's interesting as Nero had a 100ft image of himself created as Sol the sun god. It was called the Colossus.

Ooh... yikes. It reminds me of the Statue of Liberty.
It doesn't surprise me that Nero did that... Some of the Christians thought he was the one Son of Perdition, and rightfully they thought so. There's antichrists in every generation. Some thought Adolph Hitler was the Antichrist (capital A), and rightfully they thought so. The swastikas that the Nazis used is also linked to sun worship. Thankfully, Hitler lost and died, but this antichrist spirit continues to this day... If we know the patterns to look for, we'll recognize the Antichrist immediately when he shows up.
Though the prophecy won't completely fulfilled until we see a cashless society during the Great Tribulation, the message and hope of the Book of Revelation has been relevant to all Christians in every time period. "He who has an ear, hear"- that includes everyone...

 

[claninja]

Be careful not to allegorize something that's meant to be taken literal.

Be careful not to cherry pick parts of a heavily symbolic “prophecy” and attempt to literalize them from a book 1.) whose canonicity was heavily debated for several hundred years, 2.) whose audience relevance was 2,000 years ago (3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.), 3.) whose teachings often cannot be confirmed by epistolic teaching and 4.) whose imagery and interpretations cannot be agreed upon by church consensus.

Every generation, who has interpreted revelation via a fundamentalist approach, since the conception of revelation has been wrong about the mark of the beast.