The Lord rebuke you...

[k4c]

Jesus' name in the Old Testament was not Michael, He was simply called the, Word of God.

Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

The Lord, who Michael said would rebuke the devil, is someone other than Michael himself.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''

Created angels, as Michael is, do not bring to the Lord accusations against evil dignitaries.

2 Peter 2:10-11 And especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed; they are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Michael wouldn't rebuke the devil because he is a created angel but Jesus had no problem with it because Jesus is not Michael nor is He a created angel.

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.''

Matthew 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and he came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

Michael also understood that he, as a created angel, couldn't rebuke the devil, but Jesus could.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''
[/FONT]

 

[Jon0388g]

Jesus' name in the Old Testament was not Michael, He was simply called the, Word of God.

Revelation 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

The Lord, who Michael said would rebuke the devil, is someone other than Michael himself.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''

Created angels, as Michael is, do not bring to the Lord accusations against evil dignitaries.

2 Peter 2:10-11 And especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed; they are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Michael wouldn't rebuke the devil because he is a created angel but Jesus had no problem with it because Jesus is not Michael nor is He a created angel.

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.''

Matthew 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and he came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.

Michael also understood that he, as a created angel, couldn't rebuke the devil, but Jesus could.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''
[/FONT]

"And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:1-2




Jon

 

[k4c]

"And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:1-2

Jon

It's important to read the context of what is going on in Zechariah 3. We also have to understand that in the original language they didn't use chapters. This tells me we will have to go into chapter 2 to get the full picture of what's going on in chapter 3. If we do this we will find more characters in the scene of chapter 3.

From a complete read of chapter 2 and 3 we will find the Angel of the Lord, Michael and Satan.

In the scene in 3 we will see that Michael is standing there with Satan. Michael refuses to bring accusation to the Lord about Satan.

Zechariah 2:1-13 Then, raising my eyes, I had a vision. There was a man with a measuring line in his hand. I asked him, "Where are you going?" He said, "To measure Jerusalem, to calculate her width and length." And then, while the angel (Michael) who was talking to me walked away, another angel (Jesus) came out to meet him. He said to him, "Run, and tell that young man this, `Jerusalem is to remain unwalled, because of the great number of men and cattle inside. For I, Yahweh declares, shall be a wall of fire all round her and I shall be the Glory within her.' "Two exhortations to the exiles Look out! Look out! Flee from the land of the north, Yahweh declares, for I have scattered you to the four winds of heaven,Yahweh declares. Look out! Make your escape, Zion, now living with the daughter of Babylon! For Yahweh Sabaoth says this, since the Glory commissioned me, about the nations who plundered you,`Whoever touches you touches the apple of my eye. Now look, I shall wave my hand over them and they will be plundered by those whom they have enslaved." Then you will know that Yahweh Sabaoth has sent me! Sing, rejoice, daughter of Zion, for now I am coming to live among you, Yahweh declares! And on that day many nations will be converted to Yahweh. Yes, they will become his people, and they will live among you. Then you will know that Yahweh Sabaoth has sent me to you! Yahweh will take possession of Judah, his portion in the Holy Land, and again make Jerusalem his choice. Let all people be silent before Yahweh, now that he is stirring from his holy Dwelling!

We now have the players for scene 3.

Zechariah 3:1-7 He (Michael) then showed me the high priest Joshua, standing before the angel of Yahweh, with Satan standing on his right to accuse him. The angel of Yahweh said to Satan, "May Yahweh rebuke you, Satan! May Yahweh rebuke you, since he has made Jerusalem his choice. Is not this man a brand snatched from the fire?" Now Joshua was dressed in dirty clothes as he stood before the angel. The latter then spoke as follows to those who were standing before him, "Take off his dirty clothes and dress him in splendid robes and put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and dressed him in clean clothes, while the angel of Yahweh stood by and said, "You see, I have taken your guilt away." The angel of Yahweh then made this declaration to Joshua, `Yahweh Sabaoth says this, `If you walk in my ways and keep my ordinances, you shall govern my house, you shall watch over my courts, and I will give you free access among those in attendance here. For this is the stone which I have put before Joshua, a stone on which are seven eyes; and I myself shall cut the inscription on it, Yahweh Sabaoth declares.'

So you see, the angel that refused to bring the accusation is Michael but he is refusing to bring them to the Angel of the Lord, who was also present. It's the Angel of the Lord who is rebuking Satan.

By the way, this has nothing to do with Moses body, but rather Moses servant in the priesthood.

Listen to how Joshua was called a servant to Moses.

Numbers 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

This is not the same Joshua as in Zechariah but you can see how they were called Moses' servants.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''

The word (body) in this verse is the Strong's number #4983 which also means slave or servant.

Revelation 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves #4983, and souls of men.

What Jude is saying is that the highpriest, who was a servant of Moses, was being accused by Satan for having dirty garments, which was huge as a high priest.

There is nothing in the entire Bible of Moses being resurrected. As a matter of fact, he died, was buried and to this day no one knows where.

Deuteronomy 3:5-6 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

 

[Jon0388g]

It's important to read the context of what is going on in Zechariah 3. We also have to understand that in the original language they didn't use chapters. This tells me we will have to go into chapter 2 to get the full picture of what's going on in chapter 3. If we do this we will find more characters in the scene of chapter 3.

From a complete read of chapter 2 and 3 we will find the Angel of the Lord, Michael and Satan.

In the scene in 3 we will see that Michael is standing there with Satan. Michael refuses to bring accusation to the Lord about Satan.

Zechariah 2:1-13 Then, raising my eyes, I had a vision. There was a man with a measuring line in his hand. I asked him, "Where are you going?" He said, "To measure Jerusalem, to calculate her width and length." And then, while the angel (Michael) who was talking to me walked away, another angel (Jesus) came out to meet him. He said to him, "Run, and tell that young man this, `Jerusalem is to remain unwalled, because of the great number of men and cattle inside. For I, Yahweh declares, shall be a wall of fire all round her and I shall be the Glory within her.' "Two exhortations to the exiles Look out! Look out! Flee from the land of the north, Yahweh declares, for I have scattered you to the four winds of heaven,Yahweh declares. Look out! Make your escape, Zion, now living with the daughter of Babylon! For Yahweh Sabaoth says this, since the Glory commissioned me, about the nations who plundered you,`Whoever touches you touches the apple of my eye. Now look, I shall wave my hand over them and they will be plundered by those whom they have enslaved." Then you will know that Yahweh Sabaoth has sent me! Sing, rejoice, daughter of Zion, for now I am coming to live among you, Yahweh declares! And on that day many nations will be converted to Yahweh. Yes, they will become his people, and they will live among you. Then you will know that Yahweh Sabaoth has sent me to you! Yahweh will take possession of Judah, his portion in the Holy Land, and again make Jerusalem his choice. Let all people be silent before Yahweh, now that he is stirring from his holy Dwelling!

We now have the players for scene 3.

Zechariah 3:1-7 He (Michael) then showed me the high priest Joshua, standing before the angel of Yahweh, with Satan standing on his right to accuse him. The angel of Yahweh said to Satan, "May Yahweh rebuke you, Satan! May Yahweh rebuke you, since he has made Jerusalem his choice. Is not this man a brand snatched from the fire?" Now Joshua was dressed in dirty clothes as he stood before the angel. The latter then spoke as follows to those who were standing before him, "Take off his dirty clothes and dress him in splendid robes and put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and dressed him in clean clothes, while the angel of Yahweh stood by and said, "You see, I have taken your guilt away." The angel of Yahweh then made this declaration to Joshua, `Yahweh Sabaoth says this, `If you walk in my ways and keep my ordinances, you shall govern my house, you shall watch over my courts, and I will give you free access among those in attendance here. For this is the stone which I have put before Joshua, a stone on which are seven eyes; and I myself shall cut the inscription on it, Yahweh Sabaoth declares.'

So you see, the angel that refused to bring the accusation is Michael but he is refusing to bring them to the Angel of the Lord, who was also present. It's the Angel of the Lord who is rebuking Satan.

By the way, this has nothing to do with Moses body, but rather Moses servant in the priesthood.

Listen to how Joshua was called a servant to Moses.

Numbers 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

This is not the same Joshua as in Zechariah but you can see how they were called Moses' servants.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''

The word (body) in this verse is the Strong's number #4983 which also means slave or servant.

Revelation 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves #4983, and souls of men.

What Jude is saying is that the highpriest, who was a servant of Moses, was being accused by Satan for having dirty garments, which was huge as a high priest.

There is nothing in the entire Bible of Moses being resurrected. As a matter of fact, he died, was buried and to this day no one knows where.

Deuteronomy 3:5-6 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

One more time:


"And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2



Jon

 

[k4c]

One more time:


"And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2

Jon

I have that in my Bibe too.

Can you go a little deeper for me?

 

[Jon0388g]

I have that in my Bibe too.

Can you go a little deeper for me?

There's no need to go deeper, for the text is self-explanatory. The LORD said to Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. It is the LORD, Jehovah, who is speaking to the adversary.


You said,

The Lord, who Michael said would rebuke the devil, is someone other than Michael himself.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!''

which I can agree with. Similarly, in Zechariah, the "LORD" whom the LORD said would rebuke Satan is clearly someone different than the One speaking. Here is shown the Oneness of the Godhead, but the distinct Personage.


This is why the rest of your post is incorrect, because in Zechariah 3, we see God Himself says "The LORD rebuke thee".


If Michael was the pre-incarnate Christ, and we know Christ is Jehovah God, then the logical conclusion is that in both Zechariah and Jude, Christ admits judgment of the devil to the Father. There is no inconsistency in this and in fact the weight of evidence is strongly in favour of it.





Jon

 

[k4c]

There's no need to go deeper, for the text is self-explanatory. The LORD said to Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan. It is the LORD, Jehovah, who is speaking to the adversary.

You said,

which I can agree with. Similarly, in Zechariah, the "LORD" whom the LORD said would rebuke Satan is clearly someone different than the One speaking. Here is shown the Oneness of the Godhead, but the distinct Personage.

This is why the rest of your post is incorrect, because in Zechariah 3, we see God Himself says "The LORD rebuke thee".

If Michael was the pre-incarnate Christ, and we know Christ is Jehovah God, then the logical conclusion is that in both Zechariah and Jude, Christ admits judgment of the devil to the Father. There is no inconsistency in this and in fact the weight of evidence is strongly in favour of it.

Jon

If you take a closer look at chapter three you will find five beings. You will find the (he) which I believe is Michael because Jude says Michael was there. You will find the (me) as, Zechariah.

Zechariah 3:1-7 He (Michael) then showed me (Zechariah) the high priest Joshua...

You find the Angel of the Lord who I believe is Jesus.

...standing before the angel of Yahweh...

Then you find Satan and Joshua. There are at least five beings in chapter three.

...with Satan standing on his right to accuse Joshua...

The two angels found in chapter two are the same two angels conversing with Satan and Joshua.

Zechariah 2:1-13 Then, raising my eyes, I had a vision. There was a man with a measuring line in his hand. I asked him, "Where are you going?" He said, "To measure Jerusalem, to calculate her width and length." And then, while the angel (Michael) who was talking to me walked away, another angel (Jesus) came out to meet him. He said to him, "Run, and tell that young man this, `Jerusalem is to remain unwalled, because of the great number of men and cattle inside. For I, Yahweh declares,

There are two different angels here, one angel is talking with the other angel who is declaring Himself to be Yahweh.

These are the same two angels in chapter three who are conversing with Satan and Joshua. One is Michael and one is Jesus.

Zechariah 3:1-7 He (Michael) then showed me the high priest Joshua, standing before the angel of Yahweh (Jesus), with Satan standing on his right to accuse him. The angel of Yahweh said to Satan, "May Yahweh rebuke you, Satan! May Yahweh rebuke you, since he has made Jerusalem his choice. Is not this man a brand snatched from the fire?" Now Joshua was dressed in dirty clothes as he stood before the angel. The latter then spoke as follows to those who were standing before him, "Take off his dirty clothes and dress him in splendid robes and put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and dressed him in clean clothes, while the angel of Yahweh stood by and said, "You see, I have taken your guilt away." The angel of Yahweh then made this declaration to Joshua, `Yahweh Sabaoth says this, `If you walk in my ways and keep my ordinances, you shall govern my house, you shall watch over my courts, and I will give you free access among those in attendance here. For this is the stone which I have put before Joshua, a stone on which are seven eyes; and I myself shall cut the inscription on it, Yahweh Sabaoth declares.'

 

[k4c]

Can anyone turn this around for me so can I find Michael as being Jesus?

Can anyone tell me how, in all this, we get Moses being resurrected?

The truth will stand all tests, if it's true...

 

[honorthesabbath]

k4c--unless you are believing now in the immortality of a soul, then this text leaves no other explanation of the resurrection of Moses at some point in time..

Mr 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

 

[k4c]

k4c--unless you are believing now in the immortality of a soul, then this text leaves no other explanation of the resurrection of Moses at some point in time..

Mr 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

I don't believe in the immortality of the soul.

Right now I've been working on understanding Michael and Jesus. My next topic is, "Do we ever go to heaven?".

It seems to me that going to heaven is not what the Bible teaches, otherwise, why would God keep His people in the grave until the resurrection? Why not just take them into heaven now since that's where they're going anyway?

The reason I believe is because God's people will inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

This has been God's promises since Abraham.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we go to heaven.

What we do see is Jesus coming to us. It never says we return to heaven with Him. The Bible is clear that when Jesus comes, He is setting us His literal kingdom and we will reign on the earth for the thousand years.

Revelation 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.''

Daniel 2:35 "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

There is nothing in Daniel of us going to heaven, but rather, Jesus coming down and setting up His kingdom throughout the whole earth.

Moses and Elijah are not in heaven, they are in their graves awaiting the coming of Jesus and the resurrection.

When they appeared with Jesus on the mountain it was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.''

What we know from Scripture is that visions don't have to be a literal reality at the time of the vision. Even if the vision was a literal reality it does not prove they came up from their grave for the vision or came down from heaven for the vision.

Remember what Jesus said...

John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

I have a whole study I've been working on that I will share so you guys can kick it around and beat me up. This is how I learn and grow.

 

[honorthesabbath]

It seems to me that going to heaven is not what the Bible teaches, otherwise, why would God keep His people in the grave until the resurrection? Why not just take them into heaven now since that's where they're going anyway?

The reason I believe is because God's people will inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

This has been God's promises since Abraham.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we go to heaven.

What we do see is Jesus coming to us. It never says we return to heaven with Him. The Bible is clear that when Jesus comes, He is setting us His literal kingdom and we will reign on the earth for the thousand years.

Revelation 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.''

Daniel 2:35 "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

There is nothing in Daniel of us going to heaven, but rather, Jesus coming down and setting up His kingdom throughout the whole earth.

Moses and Elijah are not in heaven, they are in their graves awaiting the coming of Jesus and the resurrection.

What then is your explanation for the reason for this vision? And was Jesus actually 'glowing' at that time?

When they appeared with Jesus on the mountain it was a vision.

Matthew 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.''

What we know from Scripture is that visions don't have to be a literal reality at the time of the vision. Even if the vision was a literal reality it does not prove they came up from their grave for the vision or came down from heaven for the vision.

Remember what Jesus said...

John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jesus is telling us here that NO ONE but Him has DESCENDED and then ASCENDED BACK to heaven. Not that anyone has not only ASCENDED.


I have a whole study I've been working on that I will share so you guys can kick it around and beat me up ( I don't think is comment is very nice of you to say about us). This is how I learn and grow.

I totally agree that the home of the redeemed is right here on earth. No doubt about that. But there are scriptures that do lead us to believe that that home comes into being sometime AFTER the 1000yr. period of 'voidness' before the destruction of satan and the wicked.

So where are the saints living during this time after we..1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.?
Apparently, it must be in 'heaven'.

Then 1000 yrs later, then it seems we return to this earth (which is still in shambles), to witness the second resurrection and the final destruction of the wicked.

So I'm sure you are wrong when you say no one is going to heaven.

Secondly, take a look at word in Greek for vision.

3708 oraw horao hor-ah’-o

properly, to stare at [cf 3700]; TDNT-5:315,706; v

AV-see 51, take heed 5, behold 1, perceive 1, not tr 1; 59

1) to see with the eyes
2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4) to see, to look to
4a) to take heed, beware
4b) to care for, pay heed to
5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared

 

[k4c]

I totally agree that the home of the redeemed is right here on earth. No doubt about that. But there are scriptures that do lead us to believe that that home comes into being sometime AFTER the 1000yr. period of 'voidness' before the destruction of satan and the wicked.

So where are the saints living during this time after we..1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.?
Apparently, it must be in 'heaven'.

Then 1000 yrs later, then it seems we return to this earth (which is still in shambles), to witness the second resurrection and the final destruction of the wicked.

So I'm sure you are wrong when you say no one is going to heaven.

Secondly, take a look at word in Greek for vision.

3708 oraw horao hor-ah’-o

properly, to stare at [cf 3700]; TDNT-5:315,706; v

AV-see 51, take heed 5, behold 1, perceive 1, not tr 1; 59

1) to see with the eyes
2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4) to see, to look to
4a) to take heed, beware
4b) to care for, pay heed to
5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared

I'm going to use this as the start of a new thread because it's something that I have been struggling with. The thread is called, "Do we ever go to heaven?".