The Iron and the Clay

[Lulav]

Many have had thoughts and guesses on what this means from the book of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. (awesome, made to put fear in people)
32 This image's head was of fine gold,
his breast and his arms of silver,
his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron,
his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.​

Iron and clay do not mix. However I've been thinking about this lately. The rest of the image was metals going from Gold (Babylon) to Silver (Greece) to Brass (Media-Persia) to Iron (Roman).
These devalue as it goes down the body back then as today.

It is said the Roman Empire was the legs of Iron.

The feet have half of that component as the legs so many have surmised that the feet or last empire would be partly connected to the Roman Empire. But what today is left of the Roman Empire?

The Vatican (Vaticano), or the Holy See, is the seat of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. But what exactly is the connection between the Roman Empire and the Vatican or the Roman Catholic Church in its entirety? Well, ranging from its language to its structure and, of course, its name, the Roman Catholic Church borrowed many characteristics from the Roman Empire and in some ways kept many aspects of Ancient Rome alive until today. The Roman Empire and the Vatican
​

Clay has long represented mankind by this:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."​

We are a clay vessel and the potter is God himself.

It later goes on with the interpretation from God through Daniel.......

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
​

Notice there are two parts to this last 'kingdom'

#1. The legs
#2 The feet and toes

So we have 2 legs and then 2 feet and 10 toes.

The part that has intrigued me for many years is in verse 43.

Some questions come to mind.

Who are 'they'? "they shall mingle themselves"

If these are not human since the next part says "with the seed of men" then what are 'they'?

Makes me think of transhumans.

Transhuman, or trans-human, is the concept of an intermediary form between human and posthuman. In other words, a transhuman is a being that resembles a human in most respects but who has powers and abilities beyond those of standard humans. These abilities might include improved intelligence, awareness, strength, or durability.
​

'but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron...'​

Look at the definition.

“Transhumanism is a cultural and intellectual movement that believes we can, and should, improve the human condition through the use of advanced technologies. One of the core concepts in transhumanist thinking is life extension: Through genetic engineering, nanotech, cloning, and other emerging technologies, eternal life may soon be possible.”​

It takes us back to the beginning really. To Genesis 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. ​

Iron and clay = Cyborg?

A 'hypothetical' person whose physical abilities are extended beyond normal human limitations by mechanical elements built into the body.​

Been around a long time though, remember the $6,000,000.00 Man?

Then there's this:

Makes you go

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Many have had thoughts and guesses on what this means from the book of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. (awesome, made to put fear in people)
32 This image's head was of fine gold,
his breast and his arms of silver,
his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron,
his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.​

Iron and clay do not mix. However I've been thinking about this lately. The rest of the image was metals going from Gold (Babylon) to Silver (Greece) to Brass (Media-Persia) to Iron (Roman).
These devalue as it goes down the body back then as today.

It is said the Roman Empire was the legs of Iron.

The feet have half of that component as the legs so many have surmised that the feet or last empire would be partly connected to the Roman Empire. But what today is left of the Roman Empire?

The Vatican (Vaticano), or the Holy See, is the seat of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. But what exactly is the connection between the Roman Empire and the Vatican or the Roman Catholic Church in its entirety? Well, ranging from its language to its structure and, of course, its name, the Roman Catholic Church borrowed many characteristics from the Roman Empire and in some ways kept many aspects of Ancient Rome alive until today. The Roman Empire and the Vatican
​

Clay has long represented mankind by this:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."​

We are a clay vessel and the potter is God himself.

It later goes on with the interpretation from God through Daniel.......

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
​

Notice there are two parts to this last 'kingdom'

#1. The legs
#2 The feet and toes

So we have 2 legs and then 2 feet and 10 toes.

The part that has intrigued me for many years is in verse 43.

Some questions come to mind.

Who are 'they'? "they shall mingle themselves"

If these are not human since the next part says "with the seed of men" then what are 'they'?

Makes me think of transhumans.

Transhuman, or trans-human, is the concept of an intermediary form between human and posthuman. In other words, a transhuman is a being that resembles a human in most respects but who has powers and abilities beyond those of standard humans. These abilities might include improved intelligence, awareness, strength, or durability.
​

'but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron...'​

Look at the definition.

“Transhumanism is a cultural and intellectual movement that believes we can, and should, improve the human condition through the use of advanced technologies. One of the core concepts in transhumanist thinking is life extension: Through genetic engineering, nanotech, cloning, and other emerging technologies, eternal life may soon be possible.”​

It takes us back to the beginning really. To Genesis 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. ​

Iron and clay = Cyborg?

A 'hypothetical' person whose physical abilities are extended beyond normal human limitations by mechanical elements built into the body.​

Been around a long time though, remember the $6,000,000.00 Man?

Then there's this:
View attachment 320398

Makes you go

Yes, I think you're right that Transhumanism is a problem and some of the thinking it produces might (might!) be an aspect of the manifestation of 'the Beast(s),' Etc. I don't know this, but it's a possibility.

As to the nature of the 'clay' in the passage you cite above, I'm inclined to think it refers specifically to the Jews, or more generally, to 'God's people.' I could be wrong on this, but this is my current interpretive inclination.

 

[Semper-Fi]

clay

Isaiah 29:16 (KJV)
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as
the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it,
He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that
framed it, He had no understanding?

Jeremiah 18:6 (KJV)
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter?
saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand,
so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isaiah 64:8 (KJV)
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay,
and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Romans 9:21 (KJV)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I would be biased against the Biblical interpretation of the OP based on the kinds of interpretation problems that these two videos lay out coming from things like the Scofield reference Bible, Reformation era Biblical interpretation of the End times compared to earlier Church fathers etc.

The context of the Bible is set on the middle east and near east, many people tend to want to do things like make it apply to the larger world we are familiar with so they want to make Russia the bad guy as far as Gog and Magog etc.

I guess the feet of clay relates to some of the Islamic Caliphates as far as my sides view of things goes, especially the previous Ottoman empire.

 

[Trusting in Him]

The European Union may be the final empire. It is not very united about a lot of things at the moment. All these nations have been brought together by the treaty of Rome. The original Roman empire was depicted by the legs of iron. Industry in the EU is being badly hit by the general fnancial situation and very high energy costs, this is looking like it could be terrible for the ordinary people.

Will the EU still be able to stick together? Maybe not! If the EU breaks up, what comes next? Who knows?

 

[RandyPNW]

Many have had thoughts and guesses on what this means from the book of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

Iron and clay = Cyborg?

I think the 2 legs are the 2 halves of the ancient Roman Empire. Of course it expired in the West in 476 AD, and in the East in 1453 AD. However, it began to develop "feet" early on, which means, I think, that the Kingdom was to start to show signs of division into various states, or kingdoms.

This is what happened in history. Both halves of the Roman Empire continued in various forms, the Holy Roman Empire in the West, and the Russian Empire in the East, but states were developing internally.

In the last days, the halves break up into these states or kingdoms, which is what we have today. There are more than 10, but only 10 will become the base of the Antichrist Kingdom.

The seminal change in the united Roman Kingdom came after its Christianization, as it turned to Humanism after the Renaissance. This "clay-like" philosophy is what has divided democracy from authoritarianism.

Today we're heading back to an Antichristian authoritarianism, which is what the Beast Kingdom will be. My opinion.

 

[Trusting in Him]

Yes, this might be so, but we don't know exactly what will be happening until it happens. The EU was originally something like about 10 countries, but then it got bigger. Maybe all this trouble with Russia will lead to some of the eastern european countries being conquered by Russia and bringing the number back to 10 nations. However I don't like speculating about prophecy as I don't think man is able to guess how God is going to do things.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Many have had thoughts and guesses on what this means from the book of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. (awesome, made to put fear in people)
32 This image's head was of fine gold,
his breast and his arms of silver,
his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron,
his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.​

Iron and clay do not mix. However I've been thinking about this lately. The rest of the image was metals going from Gold (Babylon) to Silver (Greece) to Brass (Media-Persia) to Iron (Roman).
These devalue as it goes down the body back then as today.

It is said the Roman Empire was the legs of Iron.

The feet have half of that component as the legs so many have surmised that the feet or last empire would be partly connected to the Roman Empire. But what today is left of the Roman Empire?

The Vatican (Vaticano), or the Holy See, is the seat of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. But what exactly is the connection between the Roman Empire and the Vatican or the Roman Catholic Church in its entirety? Well, ranging from its language to its structure and, of course, its name, the Roman Catholic Church borrowed many characteristics from the Roman Empire and in some ways kept many aspects of Ancient Rome alive until today. The Roman Empire and the Vatican
​

Clay has long represented mankind by this:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."​

We are a clay vessel and the potter is God himself.

It later goes on with the interpretation from God through Daniel.......

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
​

Notice there are two parts to this last 'kingdom'

#1. The legs
#2 The feet and toes

So we have 2 legs and then 2 feet and 10 toes.

The part that has intrigued me for many years is in verse 43.

Some questions come to mind.

Who are 'they'? "they shall mingle themselves"

If these are not human since the next part says "with the seed of men" then what are 'they'?

Makes me think of transhumans.

Transhuman, or trans-human, is the concept of an intermediary form between human and posthuman. In other words, a transhuman is a being that resembles a human in most respects but who has powers and abilities beyond those of standard humans. These abilities might include improved intelligence, awareness, strength, or durability.
​

'but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron...'​

Look at the definition.

“Transhumanism is a cultural and intellectual movement that believes we can, and should, improve the human condition through the use of advanced technologies. One of the core concepts in transhumanist thinking is life extension: Through genetic engineering, nanotech, cloning, and other emerging technologies, eternal life may soon be possible.”​

It takes us back to the beginning really. To Genesis 3

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. ​

Iron and clay = Cyborg?

A 'hypothetical' person whose physical abilities are extended beyond normal human limitations by mechanical elements built into the body.​

Been around a long time though, remember the $6,000,000.00 Man?

Then there's this:
View attachment 320398

Makes you go

Daniel 7 is a parallel passage in that it describes the same event as when the kingdom that covers the earth and has not end. In Dan 7 the son of man comes and he would be the stone cut without hands. now Dan 7 also has a pompous adversary who would be the anitchrist and he is persecuting the saints for a time times and half a time until the kingdom comes. Now When the son of man comes the pompous one is given to the flame just like the beast in Rev but this passage notes
I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
Now this verse would seem to show what the iron and clay and they shall mingle with the seed of man but not adhere to each other. We know that when the LORD comes Satan is bound and and I assume all other beasts aka demons will be too. This would make sense of the beast being thrown into the fire but the others lose their dominion and never gain it back and their lives are being prolonged for a season (1000 years) and released for a time the final rebellion at the end of the millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Notice there are two parts to this last 'kingdom'

#1. The legs
#2 The feet and toes

This empire system image ended at the Reformation. It cannot be used for any empire after the Reformation.

 

[Trusting in Him]

This empire system image ended at the Reformation. It cannot be used for any empire after the Reformation.

Why do you say this? Where does it say this in scripture?

 

[BillCody]

I think the camel (Saudi Arabia) will be the iron because of their strength and the donkey (Roman Catholic Church) will be the clay. They also are the harlot that rides the beast. Making her the weaker of the two. The (Mystery Babylon) I believe is a reference to the worship of (The Queen of Heaven) which started with Nimrod at the tower of babel or Babylon. And the Roman Catholic Church added religious names to her but it's still a pagan religion that God hates. And just to be clear - worshipping and praying to Mary is wrong.

 

[Trusting in Him]

I think the camel (Saudi Arabia) will be the iron because of their strength and the donkey (Roman Catholic Church) will be the clay. They also are the harlot that rides the beast. Making her the weaker of the two. The (Mystery Babylon) I believe is a reference to the worship of (The Queen of Heaven) which started with Nimrod at the tower of babel or Babylon. And the Roman Catholic Church added religious names to her but it's still a pagan religion that God hates. And just to be clear - worshipping and praying to Mary is wrong.

You think so! Maybe you need to read Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, Suadi Arabia are presented as friends of Israel, not enemies. Not all arab nations are presented as enemies of Israel during the times of Jacob's trouble.

 

[BillCody]

You think so! Maybe you need to read Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39, Suadi Arabia are presented as friends of Israel, not enemies. Not all arab nations are presented as enemies of Israel during the times of Jacob's trouble.

I never said they were enemies. In fact I believe that Saudi Arabia will sign the Abraham Accords (peace treaty) with Israel. Making them with their false messiah (antichrist) the ones that start the 7 year countdown (Jacob's trouble).
As far as Ezekiel 38 & 39 go. I have read them several times. And I believe it (Gog & Magog War) happens in the millennium (1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth). I don't think Ezekiel is symbolic like the books of Daniel and Revelation.

Ezekiel 38:8-14
8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

10 Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

You think this is present day Israel? really? I mean really?? c'mon really???

The real question is "Why is Israel being lead to believe that the Gog & Magog war is about to happen."

 

[Trusting in Him]

I am not the only one who is asking that question. There is a reason why we don't necessily understand how the different end times prophecies fit together into one continuous time line. Different pieces are in different books of the bible and it's like fitting the different pieces together like a jigsaw. Do you thnk that God meant it to be like that be accident? I don't think so!

These things are fully revealed to the faithfully as the faithfull need to know. In the meantime, we are told to be watchful. Have you not heard on the patience of the saints. We are to be those who watch and wait, but not to be idle. We are the workers who God has sent into the harvest and we are to be redeeming the time.

Thinking that we need to know how God is going to bring these things to pass, is ignoring the fact that God has witheld some of these details part of His plan.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is what I believe.

The Iron represents the past Kingdom, Rome. The new element clay represents God’s people. Isaiah 64:8-9. So this is a mixture of God’s people and the kingdom of Rome, which is a mixture of Church and State i.e. new power. The mixture represents Christians and secularism mixing. Compromise of God’s moral laws and values. The feet represent end times. There should never be a force worship, God is a God of love who wants us to worship Him in Truth and Spirit not through force. This is a prophesy that has not been fulfilled yet, but I think will be soon. After this is fulfilled, the Rock (Jesus) shows striking down this false worship kingdom. When Jesus comes again sin and sinners will be destroyed and God’s people will be delivered.

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you say this? Where does it say this in scripture?

Are you bringing back the Medes and Persians as Iran or the Greeks from Greece and make them world wide empires instead of the US or China?

The Roman Empire ended and was replaced by the Holy Roman Empire. It ended at the Reformation. There is really nothing about world nations since the Reformation. We are still in the kingdom of the rock that filled the whole earth. The redeemed across the earth either have an influence or not. That ends at the Second Coming. Then there is the final harvest.

If any empires after the 7th Trumpet, they will be those created by Satan during the last 42 months prior to the Millennium. Whatever happens in Revelation 17 and 18 deal only with those 42 months, after the Second Coming.

 

[Trusting in Him]

Are you bringing back the Medes and Persians as Iran or the Greeks from Greece and make them world wide empires instead of the US or China?

The Roman Empire ended and was replaced by the Holy Roman Empire. It ended at the Reformation. There is really nothing about world nations since the Reformation. We are still in the kingdom of the rock that filled the whole earth. The redeemed across the earth either have an influence or not. That ends at the Second Coming. Then there is the final harvest.

If any empires after the 7th Trumpet, they will be those created by Satan during the last 42 months prior to the Millennium. Whatever happens in Revelation 17 and 18 deal only with those 42 months, after the Second Coming.

That's interesting, I read quite a lot about the Holy Roman Empire. It was a big thing in the ideas and motivations of Hitler during the second world war. Barbarossa the name for Hitlers invasion of Russia was the name of one of the earlier leaders of the Holy Roman Empire. Apparently Germany's first reich was the Holy Roman Empire and the EU may in part be based upon the desire to recreate the Holy Roman Empire.

It is claimed by some that the modern day conflict between NATO and Russia is a replaying of the second world war's operation Barbarossa and that under the surface, there is a psudo Holy Roman empire mentality. Maybe this may explain Putin's thinking about de-nazification of Ukraine, who knows! It just seems amazing that some much of modern history appears to be driven by things which happen so long ago.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Yes, I think you're right that Transhumanism is a problem and some of the thinking it produces might (might!) be an aspect of the manifestation of 'the Beast(s),' Etc. I don't know this, but it's a possibility.

As to the nature of the 'clay' in the passage you cite above, I'm inclined to think it refers specifically to the Jews, or more generally, to 'God's people.' I could be wrong on this, but this is my current interpretive inclination.

I have been pointing this out for years on this forum. What I see happening before our very faces is the normalization of the "queer" in society. People are expected to see a trans person as normal, when it truth there is nothing normal about it.I believe the man of sin will be transhuman. And, I don't believe Christians are ready for what is coming. IMHO the iron mixed with clay speaks of hybridization. Most Christians refuse to see that in Daniel 2:43.
Daniel 2:43
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

So who is they? They must be other than men. With the technology we have today anything can be mingled with the seed of men.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have been pointing this out for years on this forum. What I see happening before our very faces is the normalization of the "queer" in society. People are expected to see a trans person as normal, when it truth there is nothing normal about it.I believe the man of sin will be transhuman.

Well sis, in reference to "transhumanism" I was intending to allude more to the Technical side of that movement; the Transhumanism I have in mind is that which is promoted by the likes of tech thinkers like Ray Kurzweil. However, with a nod to what you're saying, I think we also find a smidgen of the same underlying philosophy about the transcending of physical human boundaries (and definitions) within the more Marxist/Leftist style thinking of the LGBTQ crowd.

And, I don't believe Christians are ready for what is coming. IMHO the iron mixed with clay speaks of hybridization. Most Christians refuse to see that in Daniel 2:43.
Daniel 2:43
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Well, I'll just say I have a little different view as to how this verse is historically relevant and manifested. You have a different view than I do. I understand. But we both think it has significance.

So who is they? They must be other than men. With the technology we have today anything can be mingled with the seed of men.

Again, that's one way of looking at it. And since I hate debating this stuff, I'll just leave it there for now.