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The Holiness Movement - sound doctrine?

C

child of Jesus

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Q: are the doctrinal foundations of The Holiness Movement sound?

Q: subsequently, do the movements which found their origins in it have sound doctrinal foundations?

Q: specifically which doctrines may be unsound? please elaborate, documenting in Scripture if possible.

[this is open to all: supportive and critical. please link to sources you are familiar with - for assisting others in their own assessments]

:wave:
.......................

The Holiness movement
is an American off-shoot of Methodism which generally follows the Arminian doctrinal teachings of John Wesley. Holiness Christians left Methodism in the 19th and early 20th centuries because they felt that mainstream Methodism was failing to emphasize Wesleyan teachings on sanctification, particularly the experience of Christian Perfection, which Holiness theologians usually refer to as entire sanctification, following Wesley's colleague John Fletcher. Among the more notable Holiness bodies are the Church of the Nazarene and the Salvation Army.

theopedia


The Holiness movement
The traditional holiness movement is distinct from the Pentecostal movement, which believes that receiving the Holy Spirit involves speaking in tongues. Indeed, many of the early Pentecostals were from holiness movement, and to this day many "classical Pentecostals" maintain much of holiness doctrine and many of its devotional practices. (Oneness Pentecostals, such as the United Pentecostal Church, still largely adhere to these "standards.") Additionally, the terms Pentecostal and apostolic, now used by adherents to Pentecostal and charismatic doctrine, were once widely used by Holiness churches in connection with the consecrated lifestyle described in the New Testament.

However, Pentecostals add and emphasize that the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit is evidenced specifically by speaking in tongues, a position which churches in the traditional holiness movement do not accept. During the advent of Pentecostalism at Azusa Street, the practice of speaking in tongues was strongly rejected by leaders of the traditional holiness movement. Alma White, the leader of the Pillar of Fire Church, a holiness denomination, wrote a book against the Pentecostal movement that was published in 1936. The work entitled Demons and Tongues, represented early rejection of the new Pentecostal movement. White called speaking in tongues “satanic gibberish” and Pentecostal services “the climax of demon worship”.[2]

Nevertheless, many holiness churches and organizations joined the Pentecostal movement (e.g., the Church of God in Christ and the Pentecostal Holiness Church), accepting the Pentecostal teaching on speaking on tongues as a "third work" of grace, in addition to conversion and sanctification. As a result, Pentecostal churches in the Southeast and in the African-American community, are often called "holiness" and "sanctified" churches.

wikipedia
 
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Edial

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I think the Holiness Movement puts so much pressure on a person it becomes either unbearable or self-deceiving.

I know one person from Church of Nazarene (thanks Tangible for Nazarene post, learn something new every day :)), nice guy, always preaches Christ and tries to lead a holy life ... but it simply does not work.
Wife left him - too tense. Too tense.
Too much pressure.

Concerning self-deception ...
I knew another person. He passed away, good guy. :)
Older man. He came up with the conclusion he no longer sins. :holy:
His wife (still alive, 88 years old :)), myself and a friend of mine just looked at him ... what?

I no longer sin ... :o ... OK ... one thing led to another and by now we are all yelling our Bible verses :D:) ...

Then a moment of sanity came - "Brother Igor! ... don't you realize we are all sinning right here at this table by arguing Bible verses!" :)

Thanks, :)
Ed
 
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VolRaider

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I think the Holiness Movement puts so much pressure on a person it becomes either unbearable or self-deceiving.

I know one person from Church of Nazarene (thanks Tangible for Nazarene post, learn something new every day :)), nice guy, always preaches Christ and tries to lead a holy life ... but it simply does not work.
Wife left him - too tense. Too tense.
Too much pressure.

Concerning self-deception ...
I knew another person. He passed away, good guy. :)
Older man. He came up with the conclusion he no longer sins. :holy:
His wife (still alive, 88 years old :)), myself and a friend of mine just looked at him ... what?

I no longer sin ... :o ... OK ... one thing led to another and by now we are all yelling our Bible verses :D:) ...

Then a moment of sanity came - "Brother Igor! ... don't you realize we are all sinning right here at this table by arguing Bible verses!" :)

Thanks, :)
Ed

One of the most common mistakes made by subscribers to the Holiness Movement is that they can lead a life that is completely sin free. Wesley's doctrine of Christian Perfection, which is the cornerstone of the movement, states that it is possible (but rare) to no longer WILLINGLY commit sin. That used to be my problem with Christian Perfection until I actually achieved a better understanding of what it meant. However, I stress that this is attainable only by constant prayer - we cannot do anything on our own.

I'm not sold on the "speaking in tongues." I will not go far enough to suggest that it is a doctrine of the devil ( I think that is ridiculous to say). Speaking in tongues, to me, means the ability to speak in another language.

I believe the Church of the Nazarene stresses this doctrine more than my own church. I wish mine would take a harder look at it. As a teacher, I am told to continuously improve in my profession, and other people do the same in their profession. Why does my faith have to be any different?
 
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Edial

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One of the most common mistakes made by subscribers to the Holiness Movement is that they can lead a life that is completely sin free. Wesley's doctrine of Christian Perfection, which is the cornerstone of the movement, states that it is possible (but rare) to no longer WILLINGLY commit sin. That used to be my problem with Christian Perfection until I actually achieved a better understanding of what it meant. However, I stress that this is attainable only by constant prayer - we cannot do anything on our own.

I'm not sold on the "speaking in tongues." I will not go far enough to suggest that it is a doctrine of the devil ( I think that is ridiculous to say). Speaking in tongues, to me, means the ability to speak in another language.

I believe the Church of the Nazarene stresses this doctrine more than my own church. I wish mine would take a harder look at it. As a teacher, I am told to continuously improve in my profession, and other people do the same in their profession. Why does my faith have to be any different?
Good point ... " As a teacher, I am told to continuously improve in my profession, and other people do the same in their profession. Why does my faith have to be any different? "

The problem with faith is that it improves only when we fail and learn through trials. :):)

Suffering is imperative in testing and polishing one's faith. :)

And since faith grows through trials and errors, we could never achieve perfection, because faith cannot grow through success, but failures and getting back on the horse. :)

Thanks, :)
Ed
 
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Edial

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DocBot query >>

Then why are Holiness people so defiant against 'that which is perfect' has come?

Circuitboard overload :D
According to that article it is because perfection is defined as such ...

Perfection is the process of sanctification which is both an instantaneous and a progressive work of grace. It may also be called entire sanctification, in which the heart of the believer is cleansed from inbred sin by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Christian perfection, according to Wesley, is “purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God” and “the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked.” It is "loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves".[2] It is “a restoration not only to the favor, but likewise to the image of God,” our “being filled with the fullness of God.”[3]

It appears that the article indicates that we need to "work at it", yet Christ "the perfection" does it naturally.

At least that's my take on it.

edited to correct - ignore this post, I misread the OP.

Thanks, :)
Ed
 
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VolRaider

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There is nothing new about Christian Perfection. It is similar to that of many of the Greek fathers (with the exception that Wesley, like many Westerners, held on to the doctrine of original sin):

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Sanctification / Deification [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Perhaps the closest resemblance between Orthodoxy and Wesley lies in the articulation of[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']their respective doctrines of deification and sanctification. The Orthodox doctrine of deification[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']has often been misunderstood by the West.[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']It is not an affirmation of pantheistic identity[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']97 [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']between God and humanity, but of a participation—through grace—in the divine life. This[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']participation renews humanity and progressively transfigures us into the image of Christ.[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']98[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Analogously, Wesley’s affirmation of entire sanctification is not a claim that humans can embody[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']the faultless perfection of God in this life, but a confidence that God’s grace can progressively[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']deliver us from the power of sin—if not from creatureliness.[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']For both Wesley and Orthodoxy,[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']99 [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']the transformation desired is more than external conformity to law. It is a renewal of the heart in [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']love—love of God[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']and[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] love of others.[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Moreover, they agree that such transformation is for all [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']100 [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']Christians, not merely a monastic or spiritual elite.[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']101[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']What is most characteristic of and common between Wesley and Orthodoxy is their [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']conviction that Christ-likeness is not simply infused in believers instantaneously. It is developed [/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']progressively through a responsible appropriation of the grace which God provides.[/font]
We can't do it on our own. There's absolutely no way to even get near such a state without the grace of God.
 
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C

child of Jesus

Guest
The most prominent non-Pentecostal heir of the Holiness Movement today is the Church of the Nazarene, if I am not mistaken.

hi Tang!
thank you for the link!!!! appreciate it.
i know a confessional lutheran who has talked about his prior experience in the Nazarene thing.

p.s.: is the little(drowning/baptised emoticon available here?...i gotta have it:p)

~ child
 
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C

child of Jesus

Guest
k.....
thanks all, thus far.

so: there is some doubt as to whether WE as Christians reach perfection. if we do not, then The Holiness movement may have a crack in its foundation.

taking this another step towards possible resolution:

are Christians ever perfect (i.e: sinless)? - i don't mean for an hour until you sin the next time.

i mean, are we in this life still sinners, though saved by Grace? (His Righteousness imputed to our account...the fact that we need His intercession as High Priest being crucial elements of orthodoxy?)

(please i don't want a big deal about antinomianism or licentiousness....that's not what i mean)



1 Timothy 1:15
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
 
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Chesterton

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Big Drew

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k.....
thanks all, thus far.

so: there is some doubt as to whether WE as Christians reach perfection. if we do not, then The Holiness movement may have a crack in its foundation.

taking this another step towards possible resolution:

are Christians ever perfect (i.e: sinless)? - i don't mean for an hour until you sin the next time.

i mean, are we in this life still sinners, though saved by Grace? (His Righteousness imputed to our account...the fact that we need His intercession as High Priest being crucial elements of orthodoxy?)

(please i don't want a big deal about antinomianism or licentiousness....that's not what i mean)



1 Timothy 1:15
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
That's the thing...it's not sinless perfection, as others have already pointed out...it's that we can resist willful sinning, because of this act of the Holy Spirit. There's a difference between willful disobedience and mistakes.
 
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Edial

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k.....
thanks all, thus far.

so: there is some doubt as to whether WE as Christians reach perfection. if we do not, then The Holiness movement may have a crack in its foundation.

taking this another step towards possible resolution:

are Christians ever perfect (i.e: sinless)? - i don't mean for an hour until you sin the next time.

i mean, are we in this life still sinners, though saved by Grace? (His Righteousness imputed to our account...the fact that we need His intercession as High Priest being crucial elements of orthodoxy?)

(please i don't want a big deal about antinomianism or licentiousness....that's not what i mean)



1 Timothy 1:15
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
I would say that once spiritual maturity settles in and one starts seriously and soberly reflecting on Heaven, God and Christ, outside of the commentaries of many teachers, one simply should not be able to say "I achieved sinlessness" without even a twinge of pride or self-righteousness.

If we still are capable saying so without our hearts condemning us, then our understanding of The Heavens is so incomplete, so earthly, it is not much different than that of Islam whose Heaven is based on earthly understanding of pleasure and bliss.
Why go to Heaven if all I would see there is a bunch of "sinless Eds" :liturgy::).

Thanks, :)
In Christ,
Ed
 
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C

child of Jesus

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It's odd that people seek someone else's "take" on Early Church teachings, when the Early Church is still here. It's like asking some literary critics to explain a certain novel, when you could just ask the novelist himself, and get the right explanation.

~ coJ:

hi Chesterton
do Christians achieve sinless perfection?

Some might.

that's not the sort of right explanation i thought you were going to offer.

you have access to the same Scriptures, by the power of The Same Spirit.

it's either yes or no. what does the Bible say, and what do you say?

"just ask the novelist himself, and get the right explanation"

according to The Author of The Bible, is ANY man without sin?

(it seems like a pretty important doctrinal point, and is relevent to the OP)

thanks:wave:
 
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C

child of Jesus

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That's the thing...it's not sinless perfection, as others have already pointed out...it's that we can resist willful sinning, because of this act of the Holy Spirit. There's a difference between willful disobedience and mistakes.

mistakes?

mistakes aren't sin, Drew...unless we want to go into a discussion about sin being transgression of The Law. i'm fairly certain God will not charge you with trangression of The Law if your hand slipped and porn popped up - that was a mistake.

so....do you still sin, Drew? it should be either yes or no.

no sin = sinlessness = perfect holiness.

sin = transgression of The Law

for example: do you Love The Lord Thy God Fully? and every moment of the day seamlessly? or do you ever fall short?

what about with neighbour?

ever lie?

covet?

~ child:wave:
 
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