The Heresy of Liberalism

[hedrick]

I'm using the actual definitions, the ones that the originators of liberalism actually used.

What people are you thinking of?

I'm using the term as it is commonly used here. If you want to use it in a strict philosophical definition, then most Christians that are commonly called liberal are not. Some Christians prefer the term "progressive." That has its own problems. When I need to describe my position, I sometimes say I'm from a variant of the Reformed tradition that uses critical scholarship.

The problem with the OP is that many Christians use things like that against all Christians who aren't conservative. If you're using it with a narrow definition of "liberal", so you're not actually attacking the majority of people in churches such as the mainline, then I can only say that I think you're likely to be misunderstood.

I do not deny that there are people of the type you describe, but I don't think they're common among Christians. There are certainly some what get a lot of PR though.

 

[holo]

Liberalism is a certain set of values, from a certain source, and promoting a specific agenda.

Sound kind of like a reversed "no true scotsman" argument. Anyway, if that's your definition of liberal I guess I'm not a liberal after all.

 

[Percivale]

Funny how much argument is over definitions. Variety in word meanings allow for a lot of fuzzy thinking, and the solution is not to try to find the original definition, but rather to think carefully about what you mean, and use the words that will be best understood by your audience, preferably using more than one word for your idea.
So, in condemning libertines, is this just about individual lives, saying we should personally submit to God's law, or is it addressing the institutional level; whether government, or church, should control people's immoral actions?

 

[Leap]

Sound kind of like a reversed "no true scotsman" argument. Anyway, if that's your definition of liberal I guess I'm not a liberal after all.

Then ignore the label "Liberal" and ask which people are:
* promoting critical thinking over faith in revelation, in order that we be the measure rather than the measured
* promoting the fluidifying of institutions
* promoting innovation over tradition - thus denying eternal wisdom

The result is the same.

 

[hedrick]

Then ignore the label "Liberal" and ask which people are:
* promoting critical thinking over faith in revelation, in order that we be the measure rather than the measured
* promoting the fluidifying of institutions
* promoting innovation over tradition - thus denying eternal wisdom

The result is the same.

Like most of Christian behavior, it's a matter of intent.

I strongly support critical thinking. Churches have a habit of building up traditions, and letting the culture influence their reading of Scripture, to the point where they read something, and what they think is more from their tradition than from what they just read. Critical thinking can be a powerful tool for helping us escape that and hear what God intended. It can also be a tool to explain away God's influence and treat Scripture as a purely hunan thing. It's a matter of how it's used.

Change in institutions and doctrine is a matter of judgement and following God's lead. There are times when I get the impression people want change because they're bored. But there are times when change really is needed to properly serve God. I don't believe that any institution is infallible or irreformable.

 

[Armistead14]

What people are you thinking of?

I'm using the term as it is commonly used here. If you want to use it in a strict philosophical definition, then most Christians that are commonly called liberal are not. Some Christians prefer the term "progressive." That has its own problems. When I need to describe my position, I sometimes say I'm from a variant of the Reformed tradition that uses critical scholarship.

The problem with the OP is that many Christians use things like that against all Christians who aren't conservative. If you're using it with a narrow definition of "liberal", so you're not actually attacking the majority of people in churches such as the mainline, then I can only say that I think you're likely to be misunderstood.

I do not deny that there are people of the type you describe, but I don't think they're common among Christians. There are certainly some what get a lot of PR though.

hedrick, you old liberal you...

Everyone needs a label to identify themselves...

 

[holo]

Then ignore the label "Liberal" and ask which people are:
* promoting critical thinking over faith in revelation, in order that we be the measure rather than the measured
* promoting the fluidifying of institutions
* promoting innovation over tradition - thus denying eternal wisdom

The result is the same.

Those three points sound about right to me, with the followin exceptions: I promote critial thinking AND faith in revelation. Fluidifying of institutions: yes, please. An institution isn't a good (or bad) thing in and of itself. And yes, more innovation please. But I don't see how tradition equals eternal wisdom.

 

[Leap]

Those three points sound about right to me, with the followin exceptions: I promote critial thinking AND faith in revelation.

The two are opposites. Its like saying something is both short and tall.

Fluidifying of institutions: yes, please. An institution isn't a good (or bad) thing in and of itself. And yes, more innovation please. But I don't see how tradition equals eternal wisdom.

 

[holo]

The two are opposites. Its like saying something is both short and tall.

You would be critical to 99% of "revelation," for instance I feel safe in assuming you're thinking critically about mormon teaching. Not to mention islamic revelation. Etc etc.

Also, tradition isn't good in and of itself. There are traditions of slavery, idol worship, war, religious oppression and so forth.

But what (whose) revelations is it that I shouldn't be critical of? Which tradition is it that has "eternal wisdom?"

 

[Leap]

You would be critical to 99% of "revelation," for instance I feel safe in assuming you're thinking critically about mormon teaching. Not to mention islamic revelation. Etc etc.

I do not choose Christianity on the basis of critical thinking but take it on faith. I'm not interested in comparing and contrasting Christianity with other religions, in order to discern which to believe (as critical thinking, and thus Liberalism, requires). The systematic doubt promoted by critical thinking is poison to faith (as is understandable considering it comes from the Enlightenment and its hostitlity to faith and revelation).

 

[Armistead14]

I do not choose Christianity on the basis of critical thinking but take it on faith. I'm not interested in comparing and contrasting Christianity with other religions, in order to discern which to believe (as critical thinking, and thus Liberalism, requires). The systematic doubt promoted by critical thinking is poison to faith (as is understandable considering it comes from the Enlightenment and its hostitlity to faith and revelation).

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

I apply faith to things I cannot see or prove, when it comes to things I can see, study and prove with critical thinking I do so.

Like it or not, you either use critical thinking in your beliefs or you're accepting someone elses at face value with no question?


You do realize in almost every Divinity School in the world you're forced to apply a level of critical thinking?

In fields of higher learning critical thinking is necessary, science, medicine,
engineering, should Christians ignore these fields? Would you keep your children from entering any of these fields?

 

[weathered]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

I apply faith to things I cannot see or prove, when it comes to things I can see, study and prove with critical thinking I do so.

Like it or not, you either use critical thinking in your beliefs or you're accepting someone elses at face value with no question?


You do realize in almost every Divinity School in the world you're forced to apply a level of critical thinking?

In fields of higher learning critical thinking is necessary, science, medicine,
engineering, should Christians ignore these fields? Would you keep your children from entering any of these fields?

Without critical thinking and studying scripture for ourselves, without proving all things we end up with Jonestown

We must pray for Gods guidance, study the scriptures and prove all things. We must also have faith that God will teach us. We cant throw out scripture and we cant blindly follow others. We must keep our minds open, but as one poster says a lot, "we cant have our minds so open that our brain falls out".

 

[bottomofsandal]

In light of how many believe that 'Liberal' and 'Christian' can go together in any meaningful way......

“Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God”​

Liberalism (or to give it its proper name, Heresy, from the Grk hairesis meaning “choice”) is about individual freedom. Freedom from tradition, freedom from institutions, freedom from authority, freedom from dogma. The freedom to be and do as you choose.

Leap,


Isn't it fascinating how the "old man" clings to his rights ? The old man does not want to be fenced in, does not want limits, and certainly has an aversion to rules !!! Are we not subjects in a Theocracy ?


God is narrow-minded, and we are told to enter by the narrow Way. Not only is liberalism to be held in disdain, but relativism, pluralism, humanism, secularism, and other isms. Man is foolish, and God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts beyond our figuring out. God even uses our own foolishness to glorify Himself as Paul tell us in 1 Corinthians.


Our heart and mind are deceptive because we are still imperfect. Our faculties cannot and should not be trusted. Our thoughts are sinful, and our faith is not from within ourselves, but in Christ Jesus. Sure, we have been given a new heart of flesh and the mind of Christ, but it is perilous to trust ourselves to do anything with expertise, but to be rebellious children.

Keep up the good work !

 

[holo]

Critical thinking is good. If the critical thinking has the underlying purpose of destroying your faith it's not real critical thinking, of course. But if what you believe can't stand up against critical questions, chances are that what you believe is false.

 

[paul becke]

G K Chesterton was acutely prophetic about our day. One of his many acute insights was: 'Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.'

One of the most seminal errors of the liberal atheist is their failure to grasp that freedom always implies a measure of responsiblilty.

At a profound level, during our waking hours, our life constitutes a long string of choices, which will tend to determine the orientation of our soul. They are our responsibility. Is it an expression of freedom for parents to neglect or mistreat their children? Of course, not. But militant atheists like to play around with the meanings of words, often ludicrous 'blanket' meanings for words such as 'freedom', to suit their own purposes.

 

[ebia]

Sorry, but which part of "liberal" do you really not understand? Liberalism is a certain set of values, from a certain source, and promoting a specific agenda. What I have illustrated is the source of the liberal values and the path that they lead to. Don't blame me if you run around in circles contradicting your own nonsense.

Where are you getting your definition of "liberalism" from and who exactly do you apply it to.

 

[ebia]

The two are opposites. Its like saying something is both short and tall.

You reject critical thinking?

 

[Archivist]

The two are opposites. Its like saying something is both short and tall.

In the US a five-foot tall man is considered to be short. Transport that same man to Africa and put him in a tribe of pygmies and he would be considered to be tall. It is all a matter of perspective.

 

[Imagican]

While certainly a matter of perspective, I believe that the creator of this thread offered that from the onset. He chose to offer what he offered from a Biblical AND philosophical perspective that is akin to those sort of 'quotes' that go down in history as coming from shear wisdom and genius.

Liberalism is as OPPOSED to Christianity as any other CULT or THE occult. Those that designed and created this 'freedom' that so many seem to LOVE SO MUCH, were simply WORSHIPERS OF SELF instead of God. And set things up here in this country to eventually DESTROY any semblance of UNITY or 'unified faith'.

They set the institution up to be one designed to BRAINWASH our fathers and their fathers. They continue the practice to this day. They 'brainwashed US', (those who attended public schools), and they continue to brain wash our children into this: God WISHES for us to be FREE.

When the TRUTH is, God wishes for us to be FREE in RIGHTEOUSNESS. BIG difference.

Whereas what we are brainwashed to BELIEVE is: Freedom WITHOUT ANY LIMITS other than their OWN LAWS. Faith in SELF and a belief that SELF should be FREE to DO whatever the flesh LEADS it to DO.

And by the very nature of the 'system' in which we live, those 'things' that are law are able to be DISSOLVED with a NEW set of PEOPLE. In other words, it was "SET UP" to make it POSSIBLE to ELIMINATE what has been the LAW of the past and present NEW law as people become MORE FREE. It is an evolutionary system designed to change as the people's will changes.

There was a 'time' in America that living with someone in a 'sexual manner' without being married was a SERIOUS CRIME. That is what the PEOPLE believed in.

As time has passed and people have become MORE 'free', what we see is that this freedom has ELIMINATED any semblance of ORDER so far as personal sexual behavior to the extent that about the ONLY laws that presently exist are sex with minors, animals and public exhibition. Other than that, the 'freedom' that liberals insist they deserve has led to direct opposition in, not only UNDERSTANDING, but PRACTICE as well. Opposition to God's instruction that is.

God instructed us NOT to get sexually involved with those to whom we are NOT WED. And there are MANY reasons for this. And many complications that ensue when we REFUSE to heed His instruction and follow our DESIRES instead. And it is CLEAR that the MORE liberal our society becomes, the MORE bound to SIN we become as well.

What kept those that would profess to be 'followers' FOLLOWING in the past were the PARENTS of those that chose to TEACH their children about God and Christ. This was CRUCIAL to having a GROUP of individuals living together in a positive and productive manner so far as FAITH is concerned.

And look at how quickly Faith began to DIE as the family unit began to die. And it is LIBERALISM that is DESTROYING the family unit. For liberalism SCREAMS OUT: "ME ME ME". And there is no successful union of one with another when both are concerned ONLY WITH ME.

Parents more concerned with their leaning to sip wines and identify them than the well being of their children. Children taught to ONLY do that which PAYS them to do it. Wives taught to 'get it and go'. Learning the proper place to have one's nails hair done is more important than keeping house or cooking. Men taught to trade em in when you get tired of them and it's OK to 'cheat' if you don't get caught.

All these 'things' being forms of FREEDOM. individuality trumping UNITY. And a 'body' that is NOT in unity is not really even a BODY, it is merely a GROUP.

So we are edging closer and closer to being NOTHING other than a "GROUP" of perverted sociopaths who's main focus and goal is 'how MUCH they can obtain in PERSONAL PLEASURE in ONE lifetime'.

And this has pervaded the 'churches' in a manner that 'the church of the past' is practically as obsolete as 8 track tapes. No one even CARES to gather for the sake of LEARNING. They simply want someone to tell them that it's OK to be a 'liberal'. It's OK to have sex before marriage. It's OK to get a divorce. It's OK to let other people raise your children FOR you. It's OK to follow ANY path you choose so long as it conforms to the LAWS of men at the present time.

Those that formed this nation knew exactly what they were doing when they introduced this concept of FREEDOM for the masses. It's right on the dollar bill: "Making way for a NEW world order". And look how quickly it was able to be accomplished.

Blessings,

MEC