The "God's Plan" Illusion

[SavedByGrace3]

I always found the "God's plan" thing to be a thought blanket. Something that makes people feel better. It is very easy for someone to think to themselves, "This bad stuff happened to me because of God's plan!" instead of understanding that it happened because it just happened. Another thing I see on this forum is threads where people say, "I had a bad thought against God, I'm so going to hell!" This is why I'm not religious, because logic and religion are two concepts that are so far apart that I can't even begin to explain it. Given the rules here, what I can talk about is very limited.

Like I probably described in a few others threads, I went to a macho, alpha redpilled forum for some dating advice, and due to me being a 36-year-old virgin, I was made to feel unspeakably terrible and self-conscious. It opened my eyes to how the world really is, what the world really wants and should want, and it worried me so much that I was in this half-conscious state, that's how bad it was. The world is trapped in high school. I will probably stay alone forever because of how the world works and thinks. Then that led me to why God creates people. Why? Some people are set up to fail. I've actually seen someone reply with "If you don't believe that Christ died for our sins and X, Y and Z, you go to a lake of fire." which is quite possibly the most disgusting and infuriating thing I've ever read. So that means people raised differently are going straight to hell because... they were raised differently? Okay. Cool, what a way to go through life, just assume that 90% of people walking around on Earth are gonna suffer for eternity because they don't think a certain way. Boy, what a loving God, right?

You don't get to have this forgiving, all-loving God but oh by the way he eternally punishes people for what their beliefs are, so pick the right one. You might as say that the Empire State Building is the same thing as a spoon. I never understood how faith works. Even when I was in kindergarten, I looked forward to getting old and dying eventually because I'd be done with that Earth crap and just go to straight to heaven, hopefully, if it existed. We all have lives we didn't ask for. Over 4 billion people do not have a unique purpose in this life, especially when a lot of them are invisible people, and some who die young before any impact was made. What was God's plan then?

God does not seem to be very good at his job, and by that, I mean he seems to be nightmarishly bad at his job. He knows the future right? So he already knows who's going to heaven and hell before they're even born, meaning some people are set up to fail. God is writing strawman as actual living people. One could say, "God doesn't have a plan for some people because those people don't believe/haven't given themselves up to God yet!" Then why did God create them in the first place, even if he knows they will not be religious? Why expect someone to root for your team when you know ahead of time they won't? Also, what are the mechanics? God waits for people to "get busy", then puts a soul in a fetus at the right time? This is why atheists exist, because the logic just doesn't click together. Where do people get the God's plan mode of thought from?

I agree with some of this and have responded to similar posts, both pro and con, for years.
Much of the problem stems from the false concept that "God is in control of everything..." I even wrote a book on the subject some 10 or 12 years ago. "The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth"
If, in fact, "God is in control of everything," then it is unavoidable that God orchestrates, authenticates, and endorses everything that happens. He is doing everything from the orbiting of electrons in an atom to the colliding of galaxies. People can equivocate if they want. Throw words like "permission" and "allow" at you. Obfuscate and blame shift. But when it is all boiled down, if you believe God is "in control of everything," then you believe God is doing it all, complete, immediate, and personal. If you believe that "God is in control of everything," then all of creation is nothing more than the moment-by-moment externalization of the mind of God as it manifests in time and space. This theory is the product of lazy theology, lazy minds, and lazy spiritual discernment. God is not in control of everything. He never said He was, He never said He wanted to be. In fact, God created the universe as it is on purpose. He wants the universe as it is, at least for the moment. To this end, it was created in this way so He would have a family made of faith and love. I said in my book that a universe under God's omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent power could never create this family. Power cannot create it. Love and faith are creating this family, and that requires risk and sacrifice. That goes against the doctrine of immutability (theology pits the attributes of God against the nature of God). A universe under the complete control of God could not give God what He wanted. So, He created it as an "open" universe. We talk about "free will," but we must understand that we live in a "free action universe" where things are allowed to happen by default. Too much to go into here. Things are allowed to happen by "the course of nature." Everything God created was given a portion of God's sovereignty. It has the right to exist and the right to interact with everything else that was created. Things do not need permission to happen. They happen because this is a free universe, and all things are allowed by default. This idea scares theologians. I am not going to post all 400 pages of the book here. However, many of the concepts you shared are addressed in the book. To end it, God interacts with the universe as an intervener, not an orchestrator. Sometimes He intervenes, sometimes He does not. Salvation, healing, freedom from oppression, and answered prayer are all interventions against the world, the god of this world, the darkness, and the course that nature is taking against us. This changes your faith and your prayer life. You no longer accept everything that comes as "the will of God." You understand that God is not behind all the evil that is coming your way. You begin to pray against evil, sin, and darkness. You are proactive in your faith and your prayers. You resist the devil and never give in to the idea that God sicced the devil on you or gave the devil permission to destroy you. (The devil does not need permission to destroy you. He is a roaring lion who is wandering around looking for people who are not sober, not vigilant, and not resisting him - so he may devour them. He is the adversary and does not need permission to be adverse.) Let these ideas change your approach to life and God. Become proactive and go on the offense. Realize the God is on your side, and is just waiting for you to act in faith toward Him and His Word. You will become a member of that family, and begin to take control over your world as God meant. He is your Lord, King, and general. Overcome the world. Stop laying down for it and blaming God for what is happening!

 

[Laodicean60]

If God punishes people for not believing, that would be the most petty thing ever.

Yep, those are the rules. Say you are Bill Gates and are invited to a wedding. The invitation says Tuxedo Only, and you decide to show up in your most expensive suit and shoes. The doorman turns you away once you get to the door because the invitation says Tuxedos only. Do you get mad at the groom or doorman because you didn't follow the rules? Heaven is God's wedding to the believers and the rule is to have faith in Jesus.

I understand also the bible says many won't believe so I've accepted that.

 

[Cerraco]

Yep, those are the rules. Say you are Bill Gates and are invited to a wedding. The invitation says Tuxedo Only, and you decide to show up in your most expensive suit and shoes. The doorman turns you away once you get to the door because the invitation says Tuxedos only. Do you get mad at the groom or doorman because you didn't follow the rules? Heaven is God's wedding to the believers and the rule is to have faith in Jesus.

Yep, those are the terrible rules. So I can walk up to people raised differently, tell them that they will suffer forever and I would be correct? My argument of people being set up to fail is being strengthened here whether people realize it or not. Nevermind the true character of a person, it's all about the petty rules. Guess your God isn't so loving, eh? Like I said before, you're trying to have it both ways.

I understand also the bible says many won't believe so I've accepted that.

Says the dude who's already Christian. Yeah, you got what YOU need, anyone who thinks different loses, no matter what the context or reason is.

 

[Laodicean60]

Yep, those are the terrible rules.

Then don't go to the wedding, your choice.

Says the dude who's already Christian. Yeah, you got what YOU need, anyone who thinks different loses, no matter what the context or reason is.

Oh boy did I! I wasn't always a Christian and drugs led me to God thirty years ago for 15 years after I fell into alcoholism. If you truly want to explore God you have to talk to him directly not us we are supposed to point you to Jesus. I had the luxury of needing Him which made it easier but the destruction I left behind in my family will be remorse for the rest of my life.

But if you're here to bash a Christian belief I have to ask you why? Does it make any sense to argue over something you don't believe in unless your conscience brought you here then I'd say the Holy Spirit is working.

 

[Cerraco]

Then don't go to the wedding, your choice.

Staying home and being fried for an eternity beyond your control are very different things. You also didn't answer my question, which I should've stated wasn't rhetorical.

Oh boy did I! I wasn't always a Christian and drugs led me to God thirty years ago for 15 years after I fell into alcoholism. If you truly want to explore God you have to talk to him directly not us we are supposed to point you to Jesus. I had the luxury of needing Him which made it easier but the destruction I left behind in my family will be remorse for the rest of my life.

I had a similar issue for roughly 10 years, although it was with painkillers but I pulled myself out of that, and I am still haunted by how scary the peak withdrawals were. Finding God and all that is not the issue. I don't even call myself an atheist, but usually an anti-atheist. It would be nice if God and the afterlife existed, but proof does not exist. There's evidence, but not indisputable proof, and I'm sure it will never exist. Also, if I had a choice between ridding the world of religion and keeping it, I'd keep it, as religion is the one thing some people have in their lives, and it has pulled people out of horrible things, much like what you described for yourself. The logical problems still remain.

But if you're here to bash a Christian belief I have to ask you why? Does it make any sense to argue over something you don't believe in unless your conscience brought you here then I'd say the Holy Spirit is working.

I don't have an issue with the entirety of the religion, but I do with some of the mechanics and beliefs. This is part of the reason why atheism exists, because the Bible disobeys logic many times.

• Raised Jewish because of where you were born, and you don't believe in Christ? Straight to hell I guess.
• Have a sexual orientation that doesn't fit Christianity? Straight to hell.
• Cured cancer twice and spent your life helping others but not religious? Straight to hell.
• Born in a part of the world where maybe you don't know much about Christianity? Straight to hell.
• Someone who's suffered beyond words and became an atheist later because he thinks no God would do this to him? Straight to hell, shoulda kept believing.

Does this sound like a good god to you? I'm just getting "this old book says it so that's just the rules bro just go with it" vibes. When I see 2+2=400, I call that out. How do you not see the issue?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

If God punishes people for not believing, that would be the most petty thing ever.

The parable of separating sheep from goats seems to suggest that judgement is based on responding to the needy. Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:31-46 - New International Version

A person is more than what they believe. A person is more than what their sexual orientation is, but a lot of judgmental Christians seem to have this gatekeeping philosophy on who goes to heaven and who doesn't.

Yes, that is for sure. It may be based more on insecurity than anything else.

God is outside of time, right? That means he knew ahead of time who will be an atheist and who won't be, and if people are made to suffer eternally just for that, which is dumb beyond words, then again, he is setting people up to fail.

That brings us to a very rigid and fragile hermeneutic loaded with problems. you identify one of them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You did not just say that. Yes, dude, yes it does. I already explained this and even gave some examples.

You talk about people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions. I'm not talking about solely evil people. What if someone is a good person in every single way but is still an atheist? Gotta punish them eternally, right? If someone is a born, and he grows up to be a murderer, did God know that beforehand? Does God see different timelines of different choices people can make?

What about people who live a life so horrible that they decide, "No God would ever allow this!" Gotta send that person to hell, right? People need to just suck it up and believe, proof or no proof. That seems really petty. It's also very easy to judge someone else's beliefs when you're convinced that yours are right and everyone else's are wrong.

First of all no one can live a good life in every single way, it’s impossible. Second, have you calculated the fact that Jesus also being omniscient and omnipresent God willingly came to earth and and suffered unfathomable pain and torment dying nailed to a cross so that YOU could be saved? He knew beforehand exactly how excruciating it was going to be that He literally sweat blood because He was so scared and yet He still offered to endure that suffering FOR YOU. Did you calculate that into your assessment of God, that the all powerful all mighty holy God suffered and died to save you?

 

[Cerraco]

First of all no one can live a good life in every single way, it’s impossible. Second, have you calculated the fact that Jesus also being omniscient and omnipresent God willingly came to earth and and suffered unfathomable pain and torment dying nailed to a cross so that YOU could be saved? He knew beforehand how much exactly how bad it was going to be and offered to endure that suffering FOR YOU. Did you calculate that into your assessment of God?

I'm well aware of what Jesus did and sacrificed, but there are still many points and factors I brought up that remain untouched. What if I'm raised up differently and don't believe in Christ? Or don't really mentally focus on Christ at all? The world is not this black and white place where everyone is gonna be the same and think the same, and you'd think a God that is smarter than everyone else would understand this. For example, what about the Sentinelese tribe? They probably never even heard of Christianity once and are still stuck in the Stone Age. They going straight to hell? Where is "God's plan" for them? I mean... God made those people too, supposedly.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm well aware of what Jesus did and sacrificed, but there are still many points and factors I brought up that remain untouched. What if I'm raised up differently and don't believe in Christ? Or don't really mentally focus on Christ at all? The world is not this black and white place where everyone is gonna be the same and think the same, and you'd think a God that is smarter than everyone else would understand this. For example, what about the Sentinelese tribe? They probably never even heard of Christianity once and are still stuck in the Stone Age. They going straight to hell? Where is "God's plan" for them? I mean... God made those people too, supposedly.

We actually don’t know what happens to people who don’t hear the gospel, we only know what happens to people who reject the gospel. People who hear the gospel and reject it are without excuse.

 

[Clare73]

Well, it is in an old book, so I guess it's true then, because it's in the Bible, which makes it true, because it's in the Bible, which makes it true. A book that has been re-translated and re-edited into oblivion.
I'm not seeing

You cannot see until you are born again (Jn 3:3-5).

very compelling counter-arguments from you, mostly just cherry-picking and gatekeeping with Bible general verses that were written by others a long time ago.

Of course, it's "no issue" from God. No one can really do anything about anything when you're a deity making up rules that don't seem to pan out very well. I really don't know what the point was there.

Edit: If anything, you're making God look like an egotistical Sunday school teacher that beats kids' hands with rulers when he's not agreed with.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm well aware of what Jesus did and sacrificed, but there are still many points and factors I brought up that remain untouched. What if I'm raised up differently and don't believe in Christ? Or don't really mentally focus on Christ at all? The world is not this black and white place where everyone is gonna be the same and think the same, and you'd think a God that is smarter than everyone else would understand this. For example, what about the Sentinelese tribe? They probably never even heard of Christianity once and are still stuck in the Stone Age. They going straight to hell? Where is "God's plan" for them? I mean... God made those people too, supposedly.

And don’t pay any attention to Clare, her doctrines have literally been refuted since the first century. She’s a Calvinist who got the doctrine of total depravity from John Calvin who got it from Augustine, who got it from the Manichaeans, who got it from the Gnostics. That’s why we have 2nd century writings refuting both Calvin and Augustine’s theology even tho they were both born centuries later.

 

[Cerraco]

Do you both believe in Adam and Eve? That the world is 6,000-10,000 years old? Or do you two believe in theistic evolution? Also, why does God create people he knows beforehand won't be Christians? This is where the "set up to fail" argument comes in.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you both believe in Adam and Eve? That the world is 6,000-10,000 years old? Or do you two believe in theistic evolution? Also, why does God create people he knows beforehand won't be Christians? This is where the "set up to fail" argument comes in.

I’m a young earth creationist. I believe that the universe was created in 6 literal days 6,000 years ago.

As I said before there are an infinite number of reasons why God would still create people whom He knows won’t believe because they can still be useful in accomplishing His plan for those who will believe. Unbelievers can have descendants that might believe, they can also be used in other ways like providing jobs for believers or purchasing goods or services from believers. They can serve as examples for believers as well. God doesn’t determine who believes or who doesn’t. He creates everyone with a clean slate and thru their own free will and their environment they become who they are and make the choices they make.

 

[Cerraco]

I’m a young earth creationist. I believe that the universe was created in 6 literal days 6,000 years ago.

I mean this with full respect, but do you understand that - as I've said before - there is horrendously overwhelming evidence against that? We can do DNA tests/carbon dating/etc. on anything at absolutely any time, we can study how evolution changes and how long it takes to change, we can do all this with rocks, living creatures, dead creatures, anything in existence. In the end, it all points to the Earth being over 4 billion years old, and the universe being over 13 billion years old.

Why does Wikipedia say the Earth is billions of years old? Why don't these scientific tests agree with the Bible? What makes the Bible correct over the science that can be checked at any time? The way the Earth has developed can't happen in 6,000 years. There are civilizations discovered that existed in 10,000 BC. This is why the Bible is usually mocked as a history book, with the stories being seen as allegorical. We have found remains of archaic humans. Where are the remains of Adam and Eve? Where's the behemoth? Where's the leviathan?

As I said before there are an infinite number of reasons why God would still create people whom He knows won’t believe because they can still be useful in accomplishing His plan for those who will believe. Unbelievers can have descendants that might believe, they can also be used in other ways like providing jobs for believers or purchasing goods or services from believers. They can serve as examples for believers as well. God doesn’t determine who believes or who doesn’t. He creates everyone with a clean slate and thru their own free will and their environment they become who they are and make the choices they make.

This creates another moral dilemma, the "using". If what you presented in the above quote is true, then that adds even more strength to my "set up to fail" argument. Imagine being someone who has gone through some of the most unimaginable pain ever for their entire life, and has so much well-placed resentment and anger in them that they can't believe in God/Jesus at all, and then they get sent to hell because... they were just supposed to believe, bro!! That doesn't make God look very good, that makes them the nasty Sunday school teacher.

Why does everything have to be punished so severely? Eternity in hell is a big deal, and that is an unfathomable punishment for someone who didn't think the right thoughts with their beliefs. If a Jewish person spends his life helping out anyone he can but never really believed in Christ, does that deserve hell? Why not just quickly show him that Jesus was the real deal to prove it, then send him to heaven? This stuff happened 2,000 years ago. It's not like Christ's death was on video, and again, the Bible was edited and translated many times.

What if Adam and Eve never screwed up? Would we still know of Jesus since sins would probably not exist?

 

[Laodicean60]

It would be nice if God and the afterlife existed, but proof does not exist.

That's why the Bible says to live by faith. We will all have proof when our spirits leave our bodies. Peace Out

PS. In my walk proof came after I started living by faith, especially in areas of healing. Peace Out.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If God punishes people for not believing, that would be the most petty thing ever. A person is more than what they believe. A person is more than what their sexual orientation is, but a lot of judgmental Christians seem to have this gatekeeping philosophy on who goes to heaven and who doesn't. God is outside of time, right? That means he knew ahead of time who will be an atheist and who won't be, and if people are made to suffer eternally just for that, which is dumb beyond words, then again, he is setting people up to fail.

No one suffers eternally.

The wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23 they are no more, not eternal punishment.

We have another option, we can learn about Jesus and about all of His promises of eternal life and accept Him as our personal Savior and accept Him sanctifying us and being recreated in His image, following the path of Jesus who loved us so much died for our sins and lived to be our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22

 

[Cerraco]

No one suffers eternally.

I should hope not, almost literally no one deserves that. You don't put a kid on time out eternally just because he called someone else a boogerface. You don't put someone in jail for life because they accidentally ran a red light once. But we better believe in Christianity otherwise we will be in unspeakably horrifying torment forever more. Again, doesn't seem like God is a fair dude. I'm seeing a lot of one-sided complacency. "Well, I'm good! My beliefs are this and this, so I got what I want. Sucks for everyone else though!"

Some people are so enveloped and trapped in their mode of thought that they cannot see anything else. It's their own beliefs and nothing else.

The wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23 they are no more, not eternal punishment.

We have another option, we can learn about Jesus and about all of His promises of eternal life and accept Him as our personal Savior and accept Him sanctifying us and being recreated in His image, following the path of Jesus who loved us so much died for our sins and lived to be our example to follow. 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22

Nothing wrong with this, but I've been asking a ton of questions and making excellent points, but they remain untouched. All I've been hit with is this, "Uhhh... well... uhhhh... well the Bible says this!" Again, that book was not written by God himself, it was written by imperfect people like us 2,000 years ago. Another point I see is how people are "trapped in sin!" Who's the overarching cause for that? Who created us? God was the one birthed us into existence, we didn't create ourselves.

Funny how people can talk about how loving God is, then in the same breath, talk about how quickly he can send you to hell if you so much have the wrong thoughts.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I love the honesty that pours out of your heart. I love the questions you pose. This world in which we live is filled with such beauty and grandeur that it reflects the beauty of the One who created it. Equally, there is so much pain and suffering it casts a dark shadow over our eyes making it impossible at times to even comprehend that God actually exists; and this in turn makes us feel so very, very alone. It causes me to think of mans expulsion from God‘s presence in the garden and that makes my heart so very, very sad.

I am a believer/follower of Jesus. I am not ashamed to admit I have so many similar thoughts as you are pressing upon for answers. I used to think I had it all figured out. I aligned myself with mainstream Christianity. Said the right things using all the correct words and terminology. Did everything I was taught to do. Even went to bible college to become further equipped to tell people the truth about Jesus.

This went on for quite some time and all the while I knew deep down something was quite wrong. I was bold in presenting the message of the Good News for man … until I reached the part about telling them of hell and the horrific consequences that awaited them. It always struck me as way out of proportion for finite beings functioning within a finite period of time.

Then, my position on hell and my view of God’s love was put to the challenge and I found I was sorely lacking in one major area. My heart was hardened by my blind obedience to Orthodoxy. I began to pray earnestly for God to expose my motives and the teachings I held on to. It was very unsettling when I began to see the deception of the religion in which I had buried myself. After several years of wrestling with and pushing aside the truth I knew in my heart. Then I accepted the truth God revealed to me. I was holding on desperately to the lie of hell because I feared man more than I loved God. This teaching of hell, which so maligned His character and ran in direct opposition to His very essence, was my stumbling block preventing me from truly knowing His immense love.

God IS Spirit. God IS Light. God IS Love. These define His essence and everything He does originates from within them. His Word sent to us, personified in the person of His beloved Son Jesus, demonstrated the commitment He made to love His creation unconditionally. He came and interacted with His creation to bring us all to Himself. He accomplished exactly what He intended and purposed to do from the beginning. Much of this, not all of it, but much of it is revealed in the Scriptures. You have good reason to be suspicious of man’s hands tampering with His written word but you also have good reason to trust He is able to overcome any obstacles man may have conjured up; because His Word became incarnate and left His signature indelibly imprinted upon His creation.

If I can impress upon you one thing it would be this: “He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.” Seek Him my friend and see if He doesn’t honor His word. I encourage you to read the Scriptures for yourself. Select a readable translation of His written word. Read the book of Ecclesiastes to see for yourself how you are not alone in grappling with the plight of man. Then read for yourself in the Gospel of John what happened when He visited His creation in order to manifest and prove His Love knows no limits, has no boundaries and is purer than anything you may have ever experienced.

May God bless you on your pilgrimage to the very heart of God!

blessings to you in His love my friend!

 

[VCR-2000]

From what I'm reading in your OP, I think you're letting your the deep frustration in your personal life cloud the way in which you evaluate the Christian Faith. I'm sorry to hear you're lonely and wishing for more in life. I know that's a very difficult position to be in. Then, to be faced with not only one's own mortality in this short life, but also with the additional possibility of being eternally punished by a Holy God, can become indescribably incapacitating for many people.

If the God of the Bible is real, and if the Bible is even moderately true (or better), then we have to realize we really do live in a fallen world which entraps us and is filled with forces that intend to push us away from subtle saving power of Jesus Christ.

I can relate to it. If God is real and if the Bible is reasonably accurate (or if it's how most evangelical Christians interpret it) and we do live in a fallen world, that is horrible and brings debilitating existential angst. Doesn't God ultimately want humanity to join him and let people enjoy creation without sin and evil? Why did God allow this fall of man in the first place? There are other holes and questions about it that I can write a book or blog post about.

And if somebody is feeling lonely or unfulfilled, you are told to just suck it up, and that some people have their earthly desires fulfilled here and some do not, and will not in eternity either. And if you defy or rebel against that, you will be damned to eternal punishment.

 

[Cerraco]

If I was looking to become a Christian, and I read the replies that were in this thread, I would be pushed further away from Christianity. Notice how quick people are to go "YUP! THOSE ARE THE RULES! EITHER BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL LOL!" like it just rolls off their tongue, who wants to think like that? Then, when I ask the serious questions, no one has answers to them and things go quiet. You know why? Because people know how to believe what they want, but they don't want to see the logic, that part doesn't make them feel good inside. People want to believe what fits their own mental narrative.

A deity that loves unconditionally would probably not send people to hell who don't believe in him when there is so much more to a person than that, as that's a huge ego move. The way the world is, and the way the world can be studied, the whole Adam and Eve thing does NOT fit. It just doesn't. I've read people's posts say "there's no proof of evolution", okay, but there's proof of two people being spawned and leading to billions in just 6000 years because one book says it's true? Is that what proof is?

As for the whole "fallen world" thing... that's just how the world is. The amount of Christians that say "these are the end times!" no matter what time period it is... Just because you're a Christian, doesn't automatically make you a good person. Being an atheist doesn't make you a bad one. There are more atheists judging homosexuals and calling them "sick" and berating them than atheists do. If God hates homosexuality that much, why doesn't he remove it with his godly magic?