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The "God's Plan" Illusion

Cerraco

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If you took the amount of times every human has blinked in their lives, then multiplied that by 20, it would still not come close to half the amount of times Christians use the word "sin" for things. Is every single negative thing about "sinning"? Some people don't want to hear about the Bible because they've heard it all thousands of times before and don't need to again, or maybe it doesn't fit the situation.
It's not the universe. The universe isn't something that controls everything. It just is. God created the universe. And perhaps He's asking you to turn to Him instead of worrying over your future relationships.
Ahhhhh yes, another thing I get from a lot of Christians, "This thing is happening because God wants you to turn to him!!" You know - and I think it was from this forum - but this young guy told me about how he had really bad acne growing up, so because of that, he never asked any girls out, let alone even let girls know he liked them, because he didn't want girls thinking, "Oh great, the kid with the acne likes me of all the women in the world..." Then he said that was all because "God didn't want him asking out a bunch of girls." ....????

Really? That's why..? It wasn't because he got unlucky with acne? And he was given the life-ruining acne to hit on women? Wow, that a horrible way of reaching that goal. What about everyone else with perfectly smooth faces? What's "God's plan" for them? It's like when people thank God for all the wealth they have, and what about people who have nothing?

Back to the "asking me to turn to him" thing. Are you saying these embarrassing moments with chicks is God making that stuff happen on purpose? Or are you referring to something else?
Of course. We're sinners at our core. We tend to go after the superficial rather than what's real. Just so you know though, just because something seems "high quality" doesn't mean it is.
God made Lucifer, God made imperfect humans, God knew the future. How does that not mean that God is the overarching creator of all these problems? He also 'puts souls into fetuses before they're born' as imperfect humans.
It sounds like you work in a toxic work environment. Maybe you should consider looking for work elsewhere. You don't need to spite these people, but for your well-being, it might not be a bad idea to look for an out.
The pay is not particularly impressive, but it's sustainable for now. I'll have to work elsewhere eventually anyway. My co-workers are pretty friendly people, but this week was absolutely nightmarish in terms the work we had to get done, and we couldn't even get it all done because we were given too much. Deadlines are part of any job, you can't run from that. My team lead just happens to have that adamant personality where it's all "these are the rules, follow them no matter what" even if the rules don't add up in any way whatsoever. I hate crap like that. I never, ever get to explain myself without being cut off and told I'm wrong before I even explained anything.

I'm actually nervous of going back on Monday, because I'm afraid I'm gonna say something I really don't want to, assuming that anything gets brought up.
I don't mean the practical rules that are made to ensure people's safety and well-being. I mean basing your identity on looks, how much money you make, how much sex you have, whether or not you have a spouse, over things you can't control, ect.
This is how this fallen world *broken-from-the-start world is. Even people who aren't seemingly shallow still are, because women that go, "I just go for personality!!" can still subconsciously go for looks. Not a lot of people want to marry a 0/10 or 1/10 and have to look at that for the rest of their lives.
How is he helping people born into starving countries? How did he help people that were trapped in those two towers before they collapsed? How is he helping people that were raped and - according to this religion - must have the child even if they don't want to? Adoption doesn't undo the pain of those women having to carry a child they didn't ask for, then painfully having to birth it out.
See above.
This just stacks the confusion. I gave examples of how people see virginity in a hypocritical way, and you said that's why we need God. I don't get that one.
Satan did enter into Judas, but Judas was still responsible for his own actions. Again, he could've repented for his sins but chose to give into despair and kill himself.
He was possessed but still completely responsible for his own actions? Riiiiight. He felt bad either way, it's not like repenting is gonna undo what's been done, and what was done is the central event in Christianity.
This falls back to God knowing the future before creating anything, Also, like I brought up MANY times, did God really want a perfect 100% believe rate from humanity? You can't have that when you give everyone free will and have people birthed from different parts of the world. You can't go left and right at the same time.
Things probably would be way better than they are now on earth. No death. No sin. ect. Praise be to God though, despite Adam and Eve's screw up, He still makes things work according to His will and will bring all who believe into Heaven.
Soooooooo... then... maybe he should not have put that tree there..?
You seem like an intelligent man. I'm sure you can think of something.
I already have. Lying.
This is all true, but just like Christianity, I don't know if I have the personality and mental setup for a partner. I find it interesting when people (and this doesn't include you) talk about this like if I don't find a wife, the world will end or something, like it's my civic duty or I have a gun to my head. What happens if I stay single forever? Is God gonna get furious at me?
That may come one day, but it is something I would never hold my breath on. This is what happens when God makes 'different' people.
He made us because He loves us, as well as so we can glorify and love Him. Once you understand who He is, you can't help but want to rejoice in His presence and worship Him, for He is the only one who deserves that kind of praise.
Does he help people who don't believe?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Does he help people who don't believe?

God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

Somehow, though, I wouldn't count the opportunity of meeting a woman with a beautiful face, but who also has an ugly and ungodly personality, as a blessing of rain, especially if her beliefs and ongoing unrepentant actions make her destined for Hell.

Here, I'm thinking of Proverbs chapters 6 and 7.
 
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OnceLostButNowFound

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Doesn't make it untrue.
I doubt that's God's fault there. His insecurity over his acne was what prevented him from trying.
Back to the "asking me to turn to him" thing. Are you saying these embarrassing moments with chicks is God making that stuff happen on purpose? Or are you referring to something else?
God doesn't make people sin. So no.

I'm saying he's asking you to turn to Him because He loves you and wants to fill the void in your heart.
God made Lucifer, God made imperfect humans, God knew the future. How does that not mean that God is the overarching creator of all these problems? He also 'puts souls into fetuses before they're born' as imperfect humans.
Lucifer and the imperfect humans chose to do what they did. Not God.
I'm actually nervous of going back on Monday, because I'm afraid I'm gonna say something I really don't want to, assuming that anything gets brought up.
Man, I know how that feels. Biting your tongue when you're frustrated with people is never easy.
Physical attraction does play a part. There's no denying that. However, using a rating system on people is dehumanizing and cruel.
The world we live in is nowhere near perfect. But the solution to all these to to help and love each other. And as horrible as it is for a woman to go through that, she's still carrying a life.
This just stacks the confusion. I gave examples of how people see virginity in a hypocritical way, and you said that's why we need God. I don't get that one.
We don't need to base our identity on whether or not we're virgins. We base our identity as being God's children.
He was possessed but still completely responsible for his own actions? Riiiiight.
Yes.
He felt bad either way, it's not like repenting is gonna undo what's been done, and what was done is the central event in Christianity.
No, but it would rebuild his relationship with Jesus and assure him access to heaven. God takes our sin, casts it away to the east and west and remembers it no more. He doesn't constantly remind us of the sin we committed.
I'm sure He's well aware of that fact. It still doesn't change His desire. The reason why He gave us free will is so that we can realize how lost we are without Him and recognize His love for us.
Soooooooo... then... maybe he should not have put that tree there..?
Then Adam and Even wouldn't have a choice to make. And they wouldn't know God's mercy.
I already have. Lying.
Terrible idea.
No, actually. God gave some people the gift of singleness. Paul never married and went on to write a large percentage of the New Testament as well as spread the good news. He found joy in his singleness and openly wished more people were like him, but also respected and admired God's design for man and woman. He even told people who struggle with self-control to pursue marriage.
That may come one day, but it is something I would never hold my breath on. This is what happens when God makes 'different' people.
God makes everyone different to show all the different facets of Himself as well as how He makes everything work when things look impossible.
Does he help people who don't believe?
He brought me to Him, and here I am trying to help you, so yes. Yes He does.
 
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Cerraco

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Doesn't make it untrue.
It doesn't, but it's just kind of awkward how Christians go "sin did it, it was sin." and ignore the moment-to-moment logic behind it. Sin is sort of a broad overarching reason for bad things, but there are always more details beyond that.
I doubt that's God's fault there. His insecurity over his acne was what prevented him from trying.
I didn't say that was God's fault, at least not entirely. If I had bad acne like him, I'd be the same way. This is the life some people have to live, I'd be an atheist much faster if I had acne as bad as how he described.
God doesn't make people sin. So no.
I'm not saying he makes people sin, I'm saying that it was all his idea to create imperfect, sinning people. He also made Lucifer, and I bring that up because Christians really, really love to bring up the devil. Come to think of it, humanity has done worse in the Bible that the devil ever has, regardless of his influence.
I'm saying he's asking you to turn to Him because He loves you and wants to fill the void in your heart.
Does he fill the void for people who are don't know of him? For example, there are tribes out there still stuck in the Stone Age that know nothing of God or Jesus, does God help them?
Lucifer and the imperfect humans chose to do what they did. Not God.
Hmmm, really? Well this oh-so-true book that has talking snakes would imply that Lucifer screwed up humanity, but God punished US for it.
Man, I know how that feels. Biting your tongue when you're frustrated with people is never easy.
The thing about my job is that you're 'always wrong'. If you're wrong, you're wrong. If you're right, you're wrong. People are so obsessed with what the rules are, without understanding that rules are not always correct. "It doesn't matter what the rules are, make things happen." is an extremely dumb line of thought, yet most of the world runs off of it.
Physical attraction does play a part. There's no denying that. However, using a rating system on people is dehumanizing and cruel.
Yeah, tell me about it, but it isn't going away. Funny how God chose way back then to flood the world, and no other time.
The world we live in is nowhere near perfect. But the solution to all these to to help and love each other. And as horrible as it is for a woman to go through that, she's still carrying a life.
An unborn life. Your precious Bible can say whatever it wants, but someone birthing a product of rape can bring infinitely more negatives than positives, but the woman still has to suck it up, right? I'd love to hear you say that to a woman going through that, and see how it takes between her being stunned silent and her punching you so hard in the face that your skull takes a different shape.
We don't need to base our identity on whether or not we're virgins. We base our identity as being God's children.
In an objective sense, there's nothing wrong with that. But because society is dumb, this isn't going away, and we have to deal with this trash whether we ignore it or not. Saying "don't worry about it" or "don't think about it" doesn't solve the problem or make it go away.
Logic.
I'm sure He's well aware of that fact. It still doesn't change His desire. The reason why He gave us free will is so that we can realize how lost we are without Him and recognize His love for us.
Wonder how that works for people in Darfur or something.
Then Adam and Even wouldn't have a choice to make. And they wouldn't know God's mercy.
So he put the tree there, knew the outcome, but got angry the tree was messed with? Or was it a "pretend rage" since he already knew? This isn't making sense, dude.
Terrible idea.
A terrible idea that has worked beautifully, and has gotten me out of many situations where if I didn't lie, there would be a negative outcome for all parties. If you think a pregnant woman looks like a cow, what are you gonna say when that woman asks, "How do I look?"
Maybe God wants singleness for me, who knows, right?
God makes everyone different to show all the different facets of Himself as well as how He makes everything work when things look impossible.
There are people who have been captured and made to be sex slaves for most of their life, I'd stop believing in God in a heartbeat if that was my life.
 
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OnceLostButNowFound

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It doesn't, but it's just kind of awkward how Christians go "sin did it, it was sin." and ignore the moment-to-moment logic behind it. Sin is sort of a broad overarching reason for bad things, but there are always more details beyond that.
It's basically what it all boils down to. Like the root of a weed.
I didn't say that was God's fault, at least not entirely. If I had bad acne like him, I'd be the same way. This is the life some people have to live, I'd be an atheist much faster if I had acne as bad as how he described.
Over having acne? I get it isn't pretty to look at, but there are loads of ways to minimize and get rid of it. And even if it's so bad you have a hard time getting rid of it, most people don't actually care that much. And if they do, that's their problem. Not you or that other guy.
The Devil is the root of all evil. He takes advantage of our sinful nature and is trying to drag as many people down as he can before Jesus' return. Including you. Hence why, I'm trying to help you.
Does he fill the void for people who are don't know of him? For example, there are tribes out there still stuck in the Stone Age that know nothing of God or Jesus, does God help them?
God is just and fair, so I don't see why He wouldn't. Whether it be through missionary work or divine intervention.
Hmmm, really? Well this oh-so-true book that has talking snakes would imply that Lucifer screwed up humanity, but God punished US for it.
It's hard for me to really take you seriously when you keep acting so passive aggressive in your posts. I'd appreciate it if you stop. You sound like you're dealing with a lot, and I'm sorry about that, but I'm only trying to help you and answer your questions the best I can.

I don't have any ill will towards you, I just want to help you. Okay?
Again, sounds like a toxic place to work. Definitely consider looking elsewhere.
Yeah, tell me about it, but it isn't going away. Funny how God chose way back then to flood the world, and no other time.
Life prior to the flood was likely far worse that what we're going through right now.
An unborn life.
Still a life.
Would a woman feel any better in the long run over aborting a child and regretting it for the rest of her life? Abortion isn't some quick fix solution a lot of people treat it as. And it has been shown that abortion can cause long term damage to a woman's body and mental health. Including breast cancer, which, funny enough, seems to be so common that it has its own month dedicated to it, during a time where abortion has become normalized.

Also your scenario reminded me of this video:


How do you feel about women who have the same stance as I do, by the way?
Neither does dwelling on it.
I'm guessing you're assuming Judas lost full control of himself, when that isn't the case. Satan definitely influenced his decision making, but the onus was still on him.
So he put the tree there, knew the outcome, but got angry the tree was messed with? Or was it a "pretend rage" since he already knew? This isn't making sense, dude.
*Again*. It was still Adam and Eve's choice. If your mom or dad tell you not to do something, and you do it anyway, why would you be surprised if you get punished for disobeying?

Besides, that whole situation is an example of how God takes a bad situation and turns it to good. Adam and Even could've lived an eternal life right than and there by not messing with the tree. And yet despite the fact they did, God still gave them grace and brought them into heaven *to* live that eternal life once their bodies failed them.

Just like now, while we're all dealing with the effects of Adam and Eve's decisions, we'll still be able to go to Heaven through acceptance of Jesus as our Lord and Savior and repentance.
It also robs you of genuine relationships. Would it feel good if a woman you liked lied to you?
Maybe God wants singleness for me, who knows, right?
I can't say. Would be great if that weren't the case though. And I'd be the first to congratulate you if/when you do find a wife.
There are people who have been captured and made to be sex slaves for most of their life, I'd stop believing in God in a heartbeat if that was my life.
God doesn't wish for those things to happen, and He ultimately punishes those who do put people through that. And we're supposed to help prevent/mitigate that sort of thing. That's part of living life under God. We help those who are suffering and do what we can to bring them to Jesus and show them how big His love is for them. Part of that comes from ministering through helping/volunteering.
 
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Cerraco

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"Most people don't actually care that much."? Are you from the same planet as me? I'm not trying to be mean here nor insult you, but the world I grew up in was infinitely meaner than how you're describing things.
I'm being serious, and I don't have any issues with you either, but you are telling me that the Bible is 100% true. Out of all the texts out there from other religions, the Bible is supposedly the winner, but some of these stories - like I've been saying - they do not connect to standard history. We can find dinosaur bones from millions of years ago, and even have skeletal remains of cavemen, but this ark that rested on a mountain top doesn't seem to exist anywhere, and the behemoth and leviathan cannot be found. How do you know for sure that some of the stories are not allegorical?

Can you jump to the atheist side and see how someone can't believe this stuff? Do you see how some of it sounds like a fairy tale? Remember when I mentioned that I had a friend that was suffering from a condition? She waited for God to fix it, but that never happened. I told her that whether she believes in God or not, that's a dangerous way of thinking, because some people have lost decades of their life waiting this stuff and got nothing, and you do not get that time back.
Again, sounds like a toxic place to work. Definitely consider looking elsewhere.
Either way, looking for a job is not a walk in the park, and it can take up to 6 months just for someone to call you back.
Still a life.
We can throw out the word "life" until we're blue in the face, but it's like I've been saying, this is not a black and white world.
Again, I don't like abortion either, especially when it's the product of people having unsafe sex and whatnot, but I only support it due to birthing someone having more negative effects than positive. I can't imagine being a woman and developing a child in me for 9 months that I got through sexual assault, having to go through all those emotional swings and sicknesses, then going through the pain of childbirth that I never asked for, all because of beliefs.

There are countless women that regret their abortions, but had they given birth, the outcome would have been far worse. What if it's a woman that physically can't handle pregnancy? I'd hate to be born into the worst life ever because Christianity said so.
Also your scenario reminded me of this video:

Sorry, I'm not quite seeing any connections here.
How do you feel about women who have the same stance as I do, by the way?
Women who are against abortion? I don't know, I don't have an opinion of them.
Neither does dwelling on it.
This isn't about dwelling, dude. If someone lives a life of constantly being mocked and judged, saying, "Don't worry about the world, God has your back!" doesn't change anything. Dwelling or otherwise. The harsh reality is still there, and there are plenty of Christians out there that believed from start to finish and got nothing out of it.
I'm guessing you're assuming Judas lost full control of himself, when that isn't the case. Satan definitely influenced his decision making, but the onus was still on him.
Would Judas have done that if he wasn't possessed at all?
*Again*. It was still Adam and Eve's choice. If your mom or dad tell you not to do something, and you do it anyway, why would you be surprised if you get punished for disobeying?
No I wouldn't, but I never had a talking stuffed animal tell me to do something.
I'm not being passive-aggressive here, but now I'm more confused by this. So God knew the future, put the tree there, got mad that it was messed with even though it was technically a good thing? If that tree wasn't messed with, then wouldn't the world be overpopulated because no one would die?
It also robs you of genuine relationships. Would it feel good if a woman you liked lied to you?
I don't think you understood the context of what I walk talking about. I'm talking about lying my way out of embarrassing situations that happen when an attractive woman is nearby.
I can't say. Would be great if that weren't the case though. And I'd be the first to congratulate you if/when you do find a wife.
I'd also have to check if I was dreaming or hallucinating.

Edit: It seems like everyone is taken anyway, like I showed up to an event, but it's sold out. Forever.
And do these people have to believe in Christ the entire time they are going through their own personal hell?
 
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OnceLostButNowFound

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"Most people don't actually care that much."? Are you from the same planet as me? I'm not trying to be mean here nor insult you, but the world I grew up in was infinitely meaner than how you're describing things.
*shrugs* The people who do care aren't worth your time.
Jesus came to me, completely transformed my mind, gave me a new life, new friends, and a new purpose. And the secular world has only been getting worse over the past several years.

That's more than enough proof that the Bible is 100% true.
I do, because I was an athiest once. And waiting on God also involves action and doing His will in other aspects of your life. It doesn't involve idleness.
Either way, looking for a job is not a walk in the park, and it can take up to 6 months just for someone to call you back.
I can agree with you there.
We can throw out the word "life" until we're blue in the face, but it's like I've been saying, this is not a black and white world.
So, it's not okay for a woman to be raped, but it is okay to kill a defenseless baby.

Both of those sound pretty horrible to me. Two wrongs don't make a right.
It's better than a lifetime of knowing you didn't wait out nine months and allow a child a chance at life.
There are countless women that regret their abortions, but had they given birth, the outcome would have been far worse.
Like? God considers every human being born to be precious. It doesn't matter how they came to be.
What if it's a woman that physically can't handle pregnancy?
Still not an excuse for killing a child. While it's awful if such a woman goes through that, we're called to live sacrificially as well. If I was a woman carrying a child I couldn't survive giving birth to, but there's a chance the child would survive, I'd give my life for it. Doesn't matter how I got it. It would still be a part of me. It would still be God's precious son or daughter.
I'd hate to be born into the worst life ever because Christianity said so.
It isn't just "Christianity" says so. It's God who says so.
Sorry, I'm not quite seeing any connections here.
I just find it interesting how men seem to be at the forefront of abortion in "defense of women" at then go and assault women who dare speak against them.
Women who are against abortion? I don't know, I don't have an opinion of them.
You just seem so adamant about defending a woman's right to choose while other women, who would know far more than you and I will ever know about the subject, would say the same as me. We push abortion to "protect women" but we're actually doing them harm.

By allowing abortion an inch, the ways of the world take a mile. In earlier days, many men didn't indulge on their desire for women simply because they don't want to get one pregnant and have to take responsibility. So, by allowing abortion, men are given incentive to rape, because in a world that normalizes abortion and treats children made through rape as disposable, they wouldn't have to deal with the responsibility or guilt of bringing a child into the world. Nothing would stop them. It wouldn't matter if they got caught. By minimizing the damage they do, we've given these kinds of men more free reign to harm these women and put them into the position you describe.

We prevent abortion to protect women. Not to force them into something they don't want to do.
They got to go to Heaven. That is far from nothing. Our life on earth isn't meant about "getting" anything. It's to glorify God and live selflessly for others. Heaven is our reward.
Would Judas have done that if he wasn't possessed at all?
Him even wanting to betray the Son of God would imply that Satan had influence over Him.

It was implied throughout the Bible that he didn't revere Jesus as much as the others and never truly believed. He was a prime candidate for Satan to use.

Either way, it wouldn't have mattered if Judas betrayed Jesus or not. Jesus would still have to be crucified and die for our sins.
No I wouldn't, but I never had a talking stuffed animal tell me to do something.
The snake wasn't a stuffed animal. Don't know what you're referring to here. For some reason I couldn't help but think of Calvin and Hobbes though. Heh.
You're assuming God wouldn't know what to do once the world was filled. He made other planets for a reason. He might've had us expand to other planets or even brought forth His kingdom at another point.
I don't think you understood the context of what I walk talking about. I'm talking about lying my way out of embarrassing situations that happen when an attractive woman is nearby.
That's still lying. Could you give me an example of what you're talking about? Because you can be polite to someone without lying.
I'd also have to check if I was dreaming or hallucinating.
God makes the seemingly impossible, possible.
Edit: It seems like everyone is taken anyway, like I showed up to an event, but it's sold out. Forever.
Could you explain to me what you're talking about here? I can sympathize there.
And do these people have to believe in Christ the entire time they are going through their own personal hell?
We rejoice always in the Lord. He doesn't expect us to just grin and bear it or pretend everything's alright though. In fact He wants us to be honest about our feelings and how hard life can be. You can talk to Him about anything. You can express your confusion, your anger, your sadness, whatever's bothering you. You can trust Him with all your problems. He's our Savior. He's our friend. He loves us more than we can ever know.

He experienced the death of a trusted friend and wept before bringing him back to life. He saw how hard life was for people who couldn't see or walk. And when a man asked Him to help his unbelief, He did so.

Jesus came not to heal the healthy, but to heal the sick. Physically and spiritually. Even if your life is awful, even if you struggle with unbelief, doubt, misery, ect. Jesus is always there for you. He loves you always. And that's more than any of us can ask for.

And even if you backslide and turn from Him, He'll wait for you to come back. Much like the father of the prodigal son.
 
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Cerraco

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*shrugs* The people who do care aren't worth your time.
On the topic of women that care about virginity, some of them aren't completely biased, but virginity is still a big deal for a guy. There are people still single now because the failure creation known as 'humanity' needs to keep coming up with ways to put one group of people down and put themselves up. My dating pool will shrink to a spec if I admit that I'm a virgin up front. Some things you just don't tell people.
Jesus came to me, completely transformed my mind, gave me a new life, new friends, and a new purpose. And the secular world has only been getting worse over the past several years.
I'm happy for you, but as for the next quote...
That's more than enough proof that the Bible is 100% true.
No, it really isn't. Is that proof God exists? Possibly, sure. Does that prove every single solitary word in the Bible? No. If I became a Christian right now, I could still not believe the Earth is just 6,000 years old and all that. Some people believe in God via creation itself, and not exactly because of any Christian reasons.
I do, because I was an athiest once. And waiting on God also involves action and doing His will in other aspects of your life. It doesn't involve idleness.
I can absolutely agree with this, but only because that's how life works overall, God or not.
So, it's not okay for a woman to be raped, but it is okay to kill a defenseless baby.
I'm sorry, but this statement is a bit loaded. The Bible makes absolutely no mention of abortion, with the closest topic being on murder. We are talking about something that cannot feel pain, cannot think, is just a mass of molecules (at the early stages). Us pro-choice people don't walk around thinking, "Oh boy, ain't it great to kill babies?!" No, the context is the following: "It is a woman's right to choose, especially if she was raped and does not want the baby." In most cases, if the baby is at a late trimester, I would be anti-abortion then.

It seems like a lot of anti-abortionists just think, "It's murder." and then just stop there without thinking about anything else. The raped woman could have all these diseases that would pass on to the baby and completely destroy their life, that person can also grow up and think, "Oh god, I'm a product of rape. My life is a lie." Maybe it's an older woman that can't give birth as it would kill her. If I was a woman that went through incestrial rape, and then I was told I had to just suck it up and deal with it, and just let the baby form inside me and painfully birth it because "that's what God wants", I'd never want to even look at another Christian person ever again. Better that kid get a quick trip to heaven. Sometimes, going through these religious-friendly choices don't lead to the best outcome.
Both of those sound pretty horrible to me. Two wrongs don't make a right.
One is worse than the other.
It's better than a lifetime of knowing you didn't wait out nine months and allow a child a chance at life.
A "chance at life" isn't always a good thing. Not aborting a child can lead to one having to be brought up in an extremely bad environment, causing that person to be scarred forever. People talk about life like it's a gift, it is not a gift for some people.
Like? God considers every human being born to be precious. It doesn't matter how they came to be.
Yeah, that's real nice. God isn't the one who has to be brought up in bad environments, we do.
That line of thought works for you, but again, adoption or not, birthing an unwanted child can still lead to more negatives than positives. Not every woman is gonna think, "Well, my body is on the verge of collapsing, but the child (that I didn't ask for) could survive, so I'll just see what happens =)."
It isn't just "Christianity" says so. It's God who says so.
That's what I meant...
I just find it interesting how men seem to be at the forefront of abortion, in "defense of women" at then go and assault women who dare speak against them.
What are you talking about..? What do you mean by "assault"?
Of course I'd defend that, like I kept repeating, I would hate to be forced into carrying a rapist's child that I had to painfully birth out because 'that counts as murder!!' Is there any further proof of that beyond what the Bible says? The Bible does not mention abortions, just killing in general, and Christians connect that to abortion. In the early stages, it's just a mass of flesh. How are we doing them harm? Because we are saying it's okay for them to "kill babies"?
Wow, this is a new one. So wait, because we live in a world where abortion is available, that makes some men want to rape more because it will be less likely that they have a kid to take care of? I mean... I guess? That's oddly specific, and I'd say that rape is usually because these men want to get their sexual pleasure by force. Abortion or not, these guys usually bolt to avoid consequences. Unless you're taking about abusive boyfriends/husbands or something.

I'd give anything to go back in time and make sure I was aborted.
We prevent abortion to protect women. Not to force them into something they don't want to do.
Huh..?? Preventing abortion makes women have to deal with having a baby they never wanted.
They got to go to Heaven. That is far from nothing. Our life on earth isn't meant about "getting" anything. It's to glorify God and live selflessly for others. Heaven is our reward.
Other people around the world aren't getting that memo, especially ones that are disconnected from normal societies and might have never heard about God.
So Judas basically just sped up the process then?
The snake wasn't a stuffed animal. Don't know what you're referring to here. For some reason I couldn't help but think of Calvin and Hobbes though. Heh.
You missed the point I was making. I'm preeeeeetty sure the snake in the Bible wasn't stuffed, that's not what I said. I was talking about the example you made where my parents would tell me not to do something, then I did it, then got in trouble. There's no way that Adam and Eve were gonna procreate, make all these people, but that tree would just sit there untouched.
You're assuming God wouldn't know what to do once the world was filled. He made other planets for a reason. He might've had us expand to other planets or even brought forth His kingdom at another point.
So there could be billions or trillions of us, and God wanted that tree untouched. Are you seeing why us atheists think most of the Bible is just fairy tales?
That's still lying. Could you give me an example of what you're talking about? Because you can be polite to someone without lying.
I was talking about my awesome curse where something humiliating happens in front of attractive women, and I have to lie around it to reduce the embarrassment. Lying is not always a bad thing.
God makes the seemingly impossible, possible.
I wouldn't hold my breath either way.
Could you explain to me what you're talking about here? I can sympathize there.
It seems like every female that has existed for more than 8 seconds is taken. That's why I said it feels like I'm in the matrix where other people have these predetermined outcomes where someone goes from single to not single in an instant, like a movie starting from the middle and not the start. And the women who aren't taken will lie and say, "Sorry I have a boyfriend." to not sound as mean when rejecting me. So I just don't try. That's why I tell my father that the last name dies with me. It's not that pedestalize women, I just see myself as a lower D- product, so women should get an A+ one instead. It's almost like I'm doing them a favor but in the worst, saddest way ever.
I wish I could believe this, but I would find that hard to believe if I got cancer or something, and saw everyone else live on while I didn't get to.
You know, you said you had some sort of addiction to porn or something. I can't remember if you said that, or if another who posted before you did. So once you became a Christian, these addictions just suddenly stopped happening?
 
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OnceLostButNowFound

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Okay. This whole thing is just making me heated, so I'm just going to stop here.

We both agree rape is horrible, and that pregnancy through rape is not something we want to happen to a woman. I don't agree with your stance, but I understand why you feel the way you do. And all I can do is pray for the women who decide to go through with abortion. I won't condemn them.

I don't know all the details about creation or what would happen if things happened differently in the garden. All I know is, based on my time with God, other Christians, reading the Bible, and researching videos about the subject, is that the way the world has viewed our origins is wrong. You and I have both been fed lies our entire life. And part of the proof is how you view yourself.

You say that you wish you were aborted and see yourself as less than compared to other men. You base your identity on whether or not you have sex. You clearly hate the world you've grown up in. So why lean on an ideology that serves only to hurt you and make you feel less than? It doesn't make sense.

We are not the results of a pile of goop. Nor are we descended from apes. We are precious creations made by a higher power. You can disagree all you want, talk about evolution, whatever the secular science world has told you, but that's the truth. You won't convince me otherwise.

You know, you said you had some sort of addiction to porn or something. I can't remember if you said that, or if another who posted before you did. So once you became a Christian, these addictions just suddenly stopped happening?
No. They haven't. And I'm not sure if they ever will. However, through my time with God and other men who suffer the same problem as me, I've learned just how detestable porn is and how self-destructive masturbation is.

Porn exploits women and teaches men, and even other women, that they are to be seen and used as pieces of entertainment and sources of pleasure rather than as fellow human beings. It's a perversion of God's design for man and woman. And by consuming it, I've hurt women and helped fuel an industry that will continue to hurt them.

Even masturbation by itself is harmful. Not only was I still using the female form for self-pleasure, it's made me complacent in my pursuit of a woman. It led me to being isolated. And it took God and other men to help me realize that.

I still find myself backsliding every now and again. For while my spirit is willing, my flesh is weak. However, thanks be to Jesus, who died for my sins, He washes me clean every time. He sees me as I am, not as my sin. And that alone makes me want to quit. And I pray that one day I will be a good enough kind of man for a Godly woman. And even if I stay single for the rest of my life, I don't want to indulge in my sexual sin ever again.

I'll still pray you one day make the right decision and turn to our Father.

God bless you.
 
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Cerraco

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I posted the question about archaic humans maybe three or four times, and you skipped that entirely. Not just you, but everyone else here.

I don't base my identity on sex, I don't even seem to crave it as much as other guys. But that idiotic alpha forum I went to before coming here made me feel so painfully self-conscious that it almost panicked me. And I understand this is a "dude, who cares what they think?" situation, but the issue is this. That alpha d-bag forum is how the world IS. These Christians forums are closer to how the world should be to an extent, but never will. I see myself as a lower D- product because I do not see any objective reason to exist, I'm here because my parents humped, then a chemical reaction occurred and there I was.

Yes, I wish I was aborted. It would be better to in a void of no existence and no thought than to deal with this crappy flawed Earth that your amazing God made, knowing full well that it would be like how it is now. If God knows the future, that dismantles so many Christians arguments. So many. SO many. The atheist ideology makes the most sense to me because it fits with the reality we are trapped in. The Christian ideology focuses on believing in something we will never ever see, possibly until we're dead. NDE stories are the closest we have to 'proof'.

And you won't convince me that two people just existed 6,000 years ago where a talking snake ruined everything and God just took it from there. Telling me that God exists is fine, that by itself is not the craziest thing I've heard, it's just the Bible stories that don't fit with how history has played out, but I do believe some parts of the Bible are true.

I lived a very awkward, somewhat-sheltered life until around 18/19. I used to believe that life was like this movie, and in the end, the bad guys get theirs and the good guys get theirs, as if there's magical karmic balance in the universe. Given the judgment-filled, embarrassing life I've gone through, coupled with the fact that a Canadian chick I met online, sort of liked, and then she flew down here and actually visited to hook up with my best friend. That was. Without a doubt. One of the most horrendous, mental-breaking moments of my life. My words can never fully describe it perfectly. It was bad. Things like this deter me from finding a wife, as my embarrassment curse has spread to everything now, not just when a pretty woman is around.

Oh wait, and every day at work, my team lead comes up to me all the time saying, "You screwed this up. You screwed that up. That manager is angry at you and doesn't want you doing this task anymore." It feels like I'm in a god damn Twilight Zone episode where everything funnels to me and nobody else. It's so uncomfortable, I'm actually now afraid of my boss because his voice just reminds me of my mistakes. It's not a toxic work environment per se, it's just that something always, always, always goes wrong, there is always some new element related to me messing things up. It just doesn't s t o p. I would be the happiest person in the world if God erased me from time, forwards and backwards. I can never properly describe how bad I want that. Some people fit the world better than others, and I can't be convinced that God doesn't make stupid mistakes.

But back to this alpha forum... my god dude... These were the most arrogant, judgemental and angry dudes I've ever known, and these are the dudes that women go for? The world is one big stereotype catalogue. The world couldn't be more backwards if it tried.

No. They haven't. And I'm not sure if they ever will. However, through my time with God and other men who suffer the same problem as me, I've learned just how detestable porn is and how self-destructive masturbation is.
I don't think it's that bad unless it ruins your life. But I still understand the viewpoint perfectly. I'm not a colossal "porn guy" so maybe I can't truly say.

I can somewhat partially agree with this. There are countless stories of female porn stars having terrible lives, getting into that industry because of some sort of abuse, losing family members because of how disgusted they are with the profession, etc.

So God helped you see where the problems lie, but didn't help you rid your addiction.

I'll still pray you one day make the right decision and turn to our Father.

God bless you.
Like I said, that could happen, I just won't believe every single thing the Bible mentions. How do you know for sure that some things are not allegorical?
 
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