• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,889
12,875
78
✟428,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Look at the Hebrew spelling of these three usages. Do they look the same? Are these three different spelling’s pronounced the same? Are all of these pronounced as YOM? No, that’s because each different spelling has a different meaning.
"Today", "in the day", "in my day", "Tuesday", "daily", Do they look the same? Are these different spellings pronounced the same? Do they all refer to days?

No, I don't think that excuse works very well, either.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,753
8,337
Dallas
✟1,079,486.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
"Today", "in the day", "in my day", "Tuesday", "daily", Do they look the same? Are these different spellings pronounced the same? Do they all refer to days?

No, I don't think that excuse works very well, either.
No they don’t all refer to a day. Which ones in this list don’t refer to a 24 hour period? In the day can refer to a 24 hour period but it doesn’t have to. In my day absolutely doesn’t refer to a 24 hour period. Can you show me any example of the word day being used with a number reference applied to it that refers to any period of time other than a 24 hour period?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: David Lamb
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,889
12,875
78
✟428,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Can you show me any example of the word day being used with a number reference applied to it that refers to any period of time other than a 24 hour period?
More importantly, it is used in Hebrew that way.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,753
8,337
Dallas
✟1,079,486.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
More importantly, it is used in Hebrew that way.
So your answer is no then. Ok so can you provide just one example of the word Yom being used with a number reference attached to it other than in the creation account that refers to a period of time other than 24 hours? For example like the term three days or the fourth or fifth day. Can you find just one example in the OT where Yom is used with a number value associated with it that refers to a period of time other than 24 hours?
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,889
12,875
78
✟428,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
So your answer is no then.
I gave you several examples.
Ok so can you provide just one example of the word Yom being used with a number reference attached to it other than in the creation account that refers to a period of time other than 24 hours?
Here's another one:

Deuteronomy 10:10 Now I had stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights, as I did the first time, and the Lord listened to me at this time also. It was not his will to destroy you.
וַיַּשְׁבִּיתִי בַּהָר אַרְבֵּעִים יוֹם וְאַרְבֵּעִים לַיְלָה כְּפֶּעָם הַרֶשְׁנָה וַיְשַׁבֵּעַת יְהוָה אֶלַי הַזֶּה
veani shavat behar arba'im yom ve'arba'im laila kap'am harshana wayashma yehiva elai gam bep'am haze lea hafatz lashmad etchem


Here "yom" means 40 days and nights

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם ולַחֲשֶׁךְ קְרָא לַיְלָה וַיְהִי עֶרֶב וַיְהִי בֹקֶר יוֹם רִאשׁון
waikra elohim laor yom u'lachshech kra laila wayehi erev wayehi boker yom rishoen


Here, "yom" means 12 hours.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

hayom asher ase yahva elohim et hartz ve'at hashmim
היום אשר עשה יהוה אלוהים את הארץ ואת השמים


Here "yom" means six days.

How many more would you like?
 
  • Like
Reactions: FaithT
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,753
8,337
Dallas
✟1,079,486.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I gave you several examples.

Here's another one:

Deuteronomy 10:10 Now I had stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights, as I did the first time, and the Lord listened to me at this time also. It was not his will to destroy you.
וַיַּשְׁבִּיתִי בַּהָר אַרְבֵּעִים יוֹם וְאַרְבֵּעִים לַיְלָה כְּפֶּעָם הַרֶשְׁנָה וַיְשַׁבֵּעַת יְהוָה אֶלַי הַזֶּה
veani shavat behar arba'im yom ve'arba'im laila kap'am harshana wayashma yehiva elai gam bep'am haze lea hafatz lashmad etchem


Here "yom" means 40 days and nights

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם ולַחֲשֶׁךְ קְרָא לַיְלָה וַיְהִי עֶרֶב וַיְהִי בֹקֶר יוֹם רִאשׁון
waikra elohim laor yom u'lachshech kra laila wayehi erev wayehi boker yom rishoen


Here, "yom" means 12 hours.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

hayom asher ase yahva elohim et hartz ve'at hashmim
היום אשר עשה יהוה אלוהים את הארץ ואת השמים


Here "yom" means six days.

How many more would you like?
Yeah I thought this might come up when I didn’t include Yovm also referring to daytime as opposed to night time but I was at work and had to reply quickly. But the term 40 days isn’t being used in reference to 40 ages or eras now is it? In Deuteronomy 10:10 Yom isn’t being used to describe 40 days and nights it’s being used to describe daytime. 40 periods of daytime. And I’ve already pointed out that Beyovm is being used in Genesis 2:4 which means “in the day” which can be used in reference to a period of time other than 24 hours. But there’s no number value being associated with Beyovm in Genesis 2:4. Why do you say that Yom in Genesis 2:4 refers to 6 days when you say that the creation account didn’t take place in 6 days? You’re kind of contradicting yourself by saying this. So you still haven’t presented a single verse that applies a number value to Yom in reference to an age or an era which is what this discussion is about. Let me ask you, can you see what you’re doing? The Bible never uses the word Yom in reference to multiple ages or eras. All you’re doing now is refusing to accept how the word is used in scripture. You’re demonstrating that you don’t care how the word is actually used, you just want to pretend it means whatever you want it to mean so you don’t have to admit that you’re wrong. And that’s fine with me because I think I’ve demonstrated to anyone who is actually interested in understanding the truth of God’s word that Yovm is never used in reference to an age or an era. The people that don’t care will ignore this fact. You still haven’t produced a single passage where Yovm is used with a number value applied to it in reference to multiple ages or eras and you still haven’t provided a single verse that uses Yovm by itself that refers to an age or an era. Just like we don’t use the word day with a number value associated with it to indicate an age or an era like 6 days or 40 days for example, we would never use those terms in reference to 6 ages or 40 ages because it’s confusing to the reader, the Hebrews didn’t use the word in that manner either. I know you’ll just ignore that fact because you don’t actually care what the Bible actually says. I care what the actually Bible says which is why I took the time to look up every single usage of the word day and examined the spelling and the usage in every verse it’s used in because understanding the truth of God’s word is important to me. I even told you exactly how I did it. It took me several hours to do it but I don’t mind because I love learning about the word of God and it was the only way that I would be able to see which Hebrew scholars are actually correct on this topic. The Bible is THE MOST IMPORTANT BOOK EVER WRITTEN. It’s information to us from God. So when I come across a dilemma like the usage of the word Yom and how it affect how we understand His word I feel compelled to investigate it and see what the evidence suggests because I’m interested in the truth. I’m not comfortable with just choosing whichever usage seems to be the most accurate out of ignorance. That’s like flipping a coin and maybe I’m right or maybe I’m wrong, who knows, who cares? That’s not my approach when it comes to scripture because I do care. What really irritates me tho, is when I share what I’ve learned thru taking the time to study and people who aren’t willing to put any effort into studying it says no you’re wrong and then they can’t actually demonstrate why I’m wrong instead of saying, oh I didn’t know that or hmmm that’s interesting but I haven’t researched it. But when someone says no you’re wrong yet they can’t actually demonstrate why I’m wrong and their argument is because these Hebrew scholars say so when there are other Hebrew scholars that disagree then they’re just arguing from ignorance because they’re just tossing a coin at whichever scholar they’re choosing. That’s what you’re doing right now. It’s like somebody arguing about theology whose never read the Bible and saying because my pastor said so. That’s exactly what you’re doing right now.
 
Upvote 0

Sam91

Child of the Living God
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,337
8,142
42
United Kingdom
✟89,935.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I don't think my category is there or if it is I lost concentration.

I think it is an accurate account of creation but given to us in story form/allegory so that it is remembered and understood. I see how scientific theories echo it and how the animals were created before man. I think it was given to us this way so that even children and those who aren't very intelligent can understand and so it can be transmitted and learned from easily. So it is true but figurative for those reasons and despite that, taking it literally is good as it explains how we fell and the need for a redeemer.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Barbarian
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,889
12,875
78
✟428,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
That’s exactly what you’re doing right now.
I'm showing you numerous instances in which "yom" was used to describe other than 24-hour days. It's right there in scripture. No point in denying the fact.
 
Upvote 0

Platte

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
1,368
253
56
Virginia
✟61,575.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
What we think of today as the "Old Testament" provided much of the paradigm in which Jesus and His earliest disciples lived and thought.

I'm not sure why we'd expect them to think otherwise about their world at that time. It's just that we know some things today that they---and even Jesus---didn't know. And that's okay.
The important thing is we get things wrong. Jesus never did.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

I learned to "count"!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,496
11,420
56
Space Mountain!
✟1,348,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The important thing is we get things wrong. Jesus never did.

The historical net over the historical gross of what Jesus likely said as reported by the New Testament writers is that we are confident that Jesus never sinned and fulfilled the purpose for which He came into this world. As for the accuracy of every syllable that exited the mouth of Jesus, we have no way to gauge. What's more, we don't have every word that Jesus ever spoke by which to make an evaluation one way or the other.

But that's ok. That's just what we glean by way of the extant historiography we have available to us today.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Platte
Upvote 0

Platte

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
1,368
253
56
Virginia
✟61,575.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I don't think my category is there or if it is I lost concentration.

I think it is an accurate account of creation but given to us in story form/allegory so that it is remembered and understood. I see how scientific theories echo it and how the animals were created before man. I think it was given to us this way so that even children and those who aren't very intelligent can understand and so it can be transmitted and learned from easily. So it is true but figurative for those reasons and despite that, taking it literally is good as it explains how we fell and the need for a redeemer.
I'm a pretty skilled reader and I don't see any indication that the Genesis account of creation (or any other historical record in Genesis) is written in story form or allegory. And the numerous references to Genesis throughout the Bible (including Jesus) do not present it that way either. For those reason I would humbly object to what you are saying.
 
Upvote 0

Sam91

Child of the Living God
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,337
8,142
42
United Kingdom
✟89,935.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'm a pretty skilled reader and I don't see any indication that the Genesis account of creation (or any other historical record in Genesis) is written in story form or allegory. And the numerous references to Genesis throughout the Bible (including Jesus) do not present it that way either. For those reason I would humbly object to what you are saying.
Object all you want. I'm ok with that. I've had many different ways to believe the first 7 days are accurate over the last few decades, currently I like that theory which I've only held for less than 2 years. I don't give the theory much weight either and it was devised on the spot to appease my astronomy and science loving son as a 'might be' and liked it.

(My childhood one and teenage one was it was historically accurate and science was wrong and God put the dinosaur bones there be cause he did. Teen to adult was it was historically accurate but time in Heaven runs differently backed up by where the Bible said 2 Peter 3:8)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Platte

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
1,368
253
56
Virginia
✟61,575.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Object all you want. I'm ok with that. I've had many different ways to believe the first 7 days are accurate over the last few decades, currently I like that theory which I've only held for less than 2 years. I don't give the theory much weight either and it was devised on the spot to appease my astronomy and science loving son as a 'might be' and liked it.

(My childhood one and teenage one was it was historically accurate and science was wrong and God put the dinosaur bones there be cause he did. Teen to adult was it was historically accurate but time in Heaven runs differently backed up by where the Bible said 2 Peter 3:8)
...why would you hold a "theory" instead of accepting what Moses wrote in Genesis? (That creation was ~6000 year ago, and took 6 days to complete)

I hear a lot of different answers to that - would you care to share 1 reason that stands out so much that it doesn't allow you to accept what Moses wrote?
 
Upvote 0

Sam91

Child of the Living God
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,337
8,142
42
United Kingdom
✟89,935.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
...why would you hold a "theory" instead of accepting what Moses wrote in Genesis? (That creation was ~6000 year ago, and took 6 days to complete)

I hear a lot of different answers to that - would you care to share 1 reason that stands out so much that it doesn't allow you to accept what Moses wrote?
Geology, astronomy and paleontology. I don't believe the sciences know all that much though. They're missing God.

I do accept it as accurate, man was created after the animals. Just as allegory, truth but given to us in a way all can understand. I also think it might be allegory because the 'day' could equate to the stages that God controlled. Day could be symbolic for an era.

Why pick me out to question out of everyone and twisting my words to make out I disbelieve the Bible?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Sam91

Child of the Living God
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,337
8,142
42
United Kingdom
✟89,935.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Geology, astronomy and paleontology. I don't believe the sciences know all that much though. They're missing God.

I do accept it as accurate, man was created after the animals. Just as allegory, truth but given to us in a way all can understand.

Why pick me out to question out of everyone and twisting my words to make out I disbelieve the Bible?
However, I don't go so far as to question Adam and Eve onwards. To do that feels like treading towards blasphemy/heresy
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
15,736
1,681
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟316,241.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'd go with a bit of all of them lol but none of them completely. I really don't exactly know. I have intuitions and beliefs of course but this won't help me as far as fitting everything to naturalism, theistic evolution or empiricle sciences.

I have some broad I guess metaphysical beliefs like reality is not just the objective world or naturalistic processes. Thats part of it but theres much more to reality I think such as conscious experiences and belief itself which can persist despite objective evidence and its not make believe.

If anything I tend to think if there was the creation of the universe, earth so that it could contain conscious life, the laws of nature had to have been set from the beginning.

So if evolution is part of the equation which I think it is but not necessarily Darwinian. Then however it is explained the paramters for it to happen on this little blue planet were no accident. Then to have a conscious being who can contemplate a God behind what they see is another level of knowing beyond what we see.

Its almost as though human consciousness is waking up to Gods creation. The more we discover the more we are changed and seem to become part of what we are looking at and trying to work out.

I probably lean more to the idea that humans evolved God consciousness and this was humankind coming into being created in Gods image. How that is i Don't know. But from what I have read it seems religious thought and god was something that was inherent in primitive humans as we see this in the evolution of simple burials to complex worshipping of the sky and nature. Like we awoke to God and it was imprinted on us.

When you hear the ancient stories of most cultures they tell a similar story. Then Abraham came and revaled the one true God that everyone was looking for. We see pagan sacrifices to the sky gods before God is revealed and without this natural inclination for humans to look to the sky and worship their gods Yahwah would not have made sense. Like God worked His revelations to us into our being.

But one thing and I guess this is why I spectulate about a developing or evolving creation is I don't think the earth is young or that God created everything 6,000 years ago. Not just for geology or evolution but rather that its not necessary I don't think to make it young. In fact I think it gives more creedence that it is complex and takes a long time to unravel as it shows how creative God is.

That he is the God of everything, the Cell, the laws of nature, the universe which we are still trying to work out. But we see the processes and intricate work involved and our minds boggle. At the end of the day I beleve its Gods handy work no matter how it was achieved.
 
Upvote 0