• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

The Eucharist: True differences between Catholics and Orthodox???

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,780
8,151
PA
Visit site
✟1,157,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I was wondering about that. In your tradition you don't worship the Eucharist?

"The Purpose of the Eucharist lies not in the change of the bread and wine, but in the partaking of Christ, who has become our food, our life, the manifestation of the Church as the body of Christ. This is why the gifts themselves never became in the Orthodox East an object of special reverence, contemplation, and adoration, and likewise an object of special theological 'problematics': how, when, in what manner their change is accomplished."

[Alexander Schmemann, The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom (Crestwood, New York: St. Vladimir’s Seminary, 1998), 226.]

Also, the gifts are given for a purpose - the spiritual nourishment of the Church (simplified).
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,443
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
ETA - A4C gave a better answer while I was typing. :)


I was wondering about that. In your tradition you don't worship the Eucharist?
We do not have Eucharistic adoration, no. I've heard about that. Catholics have a reserved sacrament, used for the purpose of people coming in and actually worshipping it?

No, we don't do that. I have never asked about these things, so I cannot discuss the theology behind it.

We have GREAT respect for the Eucharist. It cannot be wasted, it must be consumed. It must not be dropped. There are some pretty extreme measures that would have to be taken by priests in certain situations to prevent this.

Further, while we have some respect for the bread and wine during the Great Entrance, before it is consecrated, there is more awe during the entrance of a presanctified Liturgy. The priest covers his head too (forgive me, I'm no expert on vestments, I know it's to show respect but I can't explain these things).

And by pious custom, we normally cross ourselves when walking across in front of where it is kept reserved, or even in driving past the Church.

But no, we do not worship the Eucharist.
 
Upvote 0

Erose

Newbie
Jul 2, 2010
9,009
1,471
✟75,992.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Interesting how both traditions have developed (or not) over the centuries with the differences in emphasises.

The primary reason why I'm Catholic today is when I first walked in a Church, the overwhelming Presence of something far greater than I was incredible, and could not be ignored. I've have never felt this in any other church. (I've never been in a Orthodox Church so I can't comment).

One practice I learned from an uncle of mine was making the sign of the cross when I pass a Catholic Church, because I know it houses God; and I do the same when I pass an Orthodox Church as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: prodromos
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,443
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Interesting how both traditions have developed (or not) over the centuries with the differences in emphasises.

The primary reason why I'm Catholic today is when I first walked in a Church, the overwhelming Presence of something far greater than I was incredible, and could not be ignored. I've have never felt this in any other church. (I've never been in a Orthodox Church so I can't comment).

One practice I learned from an uncle of mine was making the sign of the cross when I pass a Catholic Church, because I know it houses God; and I do the same when I pass an Orthodox Church as well.
Yes, I understand that feeling when walking inside ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,780
8,151
PA
Visit site
✟1,157,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The primary reason why I'm Catholic today is when I first walked in a Church, the overwhelming Presence of something far greater than I was incredible, and could not be ignored. I've have never felt this in any other church. (I've never been in a Orthodox Church so I can't comment).

I experienced this same thing when I first experienced an Orthodox service - absolute reverence and a sense of awe.
Then I went to a Pascha service - and I knew I was home :)
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,443
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My first Divine Liturgy with full Church, choir, everything was on Palm Sunday, and then there was Holy Week and Pascha. So I came in at the right time.

I felt the "something" in an empty Church when I first encountered Orthodoxy. I think that was a bit before Great Lent began. But I was still being stubborn. Along the way I attended more restrained services, weekday presanctified Liturgies, other services, and began to feel really at home. But once I'd experienced a real Divine Liturgy that Palm Sunday, my heart never wanted to be anywhere else. It was literally a feeling of being in heaven in the very presence of God and all around Him, with angels singing. Magnificence, joy, and true awe. The thought of visiting various non-Orthodox churches actually pains me since then, because I miss the Divine Liturgy (though I've done it for the sake of others). Once Holy Week and Pascha were added, with the intense impression that I had BEEN THERE with Christ through the whole thing ... lol I would have simply lived at Church from then on if I could. My first Bright Week was the worst withdrawal period I could imagine (our parish doesn't have daily services).

I am thankful to have found the Church, and I couldn't imagine being anywhere else.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
35,591
20,012
45
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,672,448.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The worship of the Eucharist is something where Anglicans agree with Orthodox again. We might set aside the sacrament for later administration, but we don't use it as a focus for adoration or worship, and for us the point is in the receiving of it and the grace which flows from that.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,897
14,165
✟458,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
The adoration of the Eucharist outside of a liturgical context is a uniquely Roman Catholic and affiliated churches' (e.g., Maronites, for whom it is a Latinization) phenomenon.

It is enough that Christ told His disciples and us "Take, eat of it all of you", and "Take, drink of it all of you". And so we do.

In my personal view (i.e., not from this or that source, since I don't know of any OO sources that address this RC devotion), this is one of those things where the impulse (to affirm Christ in the Eucharist) is good, but somehow along the way it took a turn into a form that I can neither really understand or find supportable. For one thing, why is this happening in a non-liturgical context, and what does that say about the liturgy as it is in the RCC church that they separate it into its own thing outside of the liturgy, so as to adore Him further?

We prostrate ourselves before the holy and precious body and blood of Christ our Lord in the liturgy, so I guess that would pass for 'adoration' in a Western context (in the sense that they say that this is to show due reverence to the reality of the Eucharist, and this is why we do what we do -- because Christ is truly among us, and when the priest raises the body and blood before the prostrated congregation and proclaims that these are the holy body and precious blood, that's exactly what they are), but here again the form is different enough that such a thing could be comfortably fit into a Coptic Orthodox context, either inside or outside of the liturgy. More basically, I don't think that it is something that anyone would really think to do. Because of what is contained in the liturgies and prayers of the Church, and the way these are lived out, there really isn't any doubt regarding what is going on and why, and to (re-)affirm the reality of the Eucharist would be and is as simple as looking at those liturgies and other prayers.

To that end, a fraction prayer to the Son from the Coptic Liturgy of St. Gregory reads as follows:

Blessed are You, O Christ our God, the Pantocrator, Savior of Your Church. O Logos who can be contemplated and Man that can be seen,

who through Your incomprehensible Incarnation have prepared for us the Bread of heaven this, Your holy Body which is mystical and holy in every way.

You have mixed for us a cup from a true vine, Your unblemished divine side,

which after You had given up the spirit, flowed for us blood and water, and became purification for the whole world.

Acquire us to Yourself, O Good One, we Your undeserving servants.

Make us for Yourself an assembled people, a kingdom, a priesthood, and a holy nation.

Purify us also O our Master, as You have sanctified these gifts set forth, which You have made unseen out of those which are seen and (have made them) Your rational Mysteries, O our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

You, because of the multitude of Your compassions, have made us all worthy of sonship through holy Baptism.

You have taught us types of mystical prayer, so that we may entreat Your Father thereby.

You also now, O our Master, make us worthy, that with a pure conscience and good thoughts that befit sons, and with yearning and boldness,

We may dare to cry to God, your holy Father who is in the heavens, and say:

“Our Father ....”
+++

The contemplation of God the incarnate Logos is an affirmation of the reality of the incarnation (as with the following point, that He is "Man who can be seen"), so while it would be absolutely wrong to treat Christ as not able to be contemplated (as that messes with our theology of the incarnation), I am really not sure what can be gained through Western Eucharistic adoration that is not abundant in prayers and practices described above.

So maybe the question should be reversed:

Why does your church practice Eucharistic adoration, Erose?



 
Upvote 0

OrthodoxyUSA

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2004
25,292
2,868
60
Tupelo, MS
Visit site
✟164,774.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
hdr-final.jpg


Forgive me...
 
Upvote 0

Erose

Newbie
Jul 2, 2010
9,009
1,471
✟75,992.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The adoration of the Eucharist outside of a liturgical context is a uniquely Roman Catholic and affiliated churches' (e.g., Maronites, for whom it is a Latinization) phenomenon.

It is enough that Christ told His disciples and us "Take, eat of it all of you", and "Take, drink of it all of you". And so we do.

In my personal view (i.e., not from this or that source, since I don't know of any OO sources that address this RC devotion), this is one of those things where the impulse (to affirm Christ in the Eucharist) is good, but somehow along the way it took a turn into a form that I can neither really understand or find supportable. For one thing, why is this happening in a non-liturgical context, and what does that say about the liturgy as it is in the RCC church that they separate it into its own thing outside of the liturgy, so as to adore Him further?

We prostrate ourselves before the holy and precious body and blood of Christ our Lord in the liturgy, so I guess that would pass for 'adoration' in a Western context (in the sense that they say that this is to show due reverence to the reality of the Eucharist, and this is why we do what we do -- because Christ is truly among us, and when the priest raises the body and blood before the prostrated congregation and proclaims that these are the holy body and precious blood, that's exactly what they are), but here again the form is different enough that such a thing could be comfortably fit into a Coptic Orthodox context, either inside or outside of the liturgy. More basically, I don't think that it is something that anyone would really think to do. Because of what is contained in the liturgies and prayers of the Church, and the way these are lived out, there really isn't any doubt regarding what is going on and why, and to (re-)affirm the reality of the Eucharist would be and is as simple as looking at those liturgies and other prayers.

To that end, a fraction prayer to the Son from the Coptic Liturgy of St. Gregory reads as follows:

Blessed are You, O Christ our God, the Pantocrator, Savior of Your Church. O Logos who can be contemplated and Man that can be seen,

who through Your incomprehensible Incarnation have prepared for us the Bread of heaven this, Your holy Body which is mystical and holy in every way.

You have mixed for us a cup from a true vine, Your unblemished divine side,

which after You had given up the spirit, flowed for us blood and water, and became purification for the whole world.

Acquire us to Yourself, O Good One, we Your undeserving servants.

Make us for Yourself an assembled people, a kingdom, a priesthood, and a holy nation.

Purify us also O our Master, as You have sanctified these gifts set forth, which You have made unseen out of those which are seen and (have made them) Your rational Mysteries, O our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

You, because of the multitude of Your compassions, have made us all worthy of sonship through holy Baptism.

You have taught us types of mystical prayer, so that we may entreat Your Father thereby.

You also now, O our Master, make us worthy, that with a pure conscience and good thoughts that befit sons, and with yearning and boldness,

We may dare to cry to God, your holy Father who is in the heavens, and say:

“Our Father ....”
+++

The contemplation of God the incarnate Logos is an affirmation of the reality of the incarnation (as with the following point, that He is "Man who can be seen"), so while it would be absolutely wrong to treat Christ as not able to be contemplated (as that messes with our theology of the incarnation), I am really not sure what can be gained through Western Eucharistic adoration that is not abundant in prayers and practices described above.

So maybe the question should be reversed:

Why does your church practice Eucharistic adoration, Erose?
Because God is to be adored within the Liturgy and outside the liturgy. Quite honestly you answered your own question in paragraph four above. The Eucharist is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior and the Son of God, who is worthy of all adoration and praise. Adoration and praise should not be relegated only to the Liturgy, but should be in every facet of our lives.

Back not too long ago, when Churches didn't have to fear vandalism and theft so much, Churches were always open to the public to go and pray and meditate. I truly miss those days, because there was really no greater experience outside of Mass, than to pray inside an empty church, with just God and you being present. The overwhelming grace that one can experience in doing so, was astounding IMO.

So the simplest of answers to your question? The Eucharist is Christ our God, and Christ is worthy of all praise and adoration.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,780
8,151
PA
Visit site
✟1,157,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Because God is to be adored within the Liturgy and outside the liturgy. Quite honestly you answered your own question in paragraph four above. The Eucharist is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior and the Son of God, who is worthy of all adoration and praise. Adoration and praise should not be relegated only to the Liturgy, but should be in every facet of our lives.

Back not too long ago, when Churches didn't have to fear vandalism and theft so much, Churches were always open to the public to go and pray and meditate. I truly miss those days, because there was really no greater experience outside of Mass, than to pray inside an empty church, with just God and you being present. The overwhelming grace that one can experience in doing so, was astounding IMO.

So the simplest of answers to your question? The Eucharist is Christ our God, and Christ is worthy of all praise and adoration.
I believe we would say that we can worship Christ outside of just the Eucharist as the Eucharist is not the only place He is present. Since we were taught that the Eucharist was for a certain purpose, we do not reserve it (except for the ill), considering we can worship Him in other ways as well. The flesh and blood is for a purpose, but He is always there to be praised and adored.

Just some thoughts from our perspective :)

ETA: I agree about praying and meditating in Church without the liturgy. We can still do that during office hours, though I wish it was open more. However, Christ our Lord is there whether the Eucharist is or is not present.
 
Upvote 0

Erose

Newbie
Jul 2, 2010
9,009
1,471
✟75,992.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I believe we would say that we can worship Christ outside of just the Eucharist as the Eucharist is not the only place He is present. Since we were taught that the Eucharist was for a certain purpose, we do not reserve it (except for the ill), considering we can worship Him in other ways as well. The flesh and blood is for a purpose, but He is always there to be praised and adored.

Just some thoughts from our perspective :)

ETA: I agree about praying and meditating in Church without the liturgy. We can still do that during office hours, though I wish it was open more. However, Christ our Lord is there whether the Eucharist is or is not present.
Well we can all agree that God is omnipresent, and so is everywhere. But there are places that...I don't know if this is the best expression to use here...He is more present. Obviously in the Eucharist Jesus is fully present, and this is why at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer the priest lifts up the Sacred Host and declares: "Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him who takes away the sins of the world,...". So in our belief system, when we come into Church, we come into the Heavenly Temple of God and are in the full presence of Jesus Christ. Sadly so many of us, don't fully understand this fact.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,780
8,151
PA
Visit site
✟1,157,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Well we can all agree that God is omnipresent, and so is everywhere. But there are places that...I don't know if this is the best expression to use here...He is more present. Obviously in the Eucharist Jesus is fully present, and this is why at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer the priest lifts up the Sacred Host and declares: "Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him who takes away the sins of the world,...". So in our belief system, when we come into Church, we come into the Heavenly Temple of God and are in the full presence of Jesus Christ. Sadly so many of us, don't fully understand this fact.
I would say that when we come into the Church, we come into the Heavenly Temple of God, and we are also in the full presence of Jesus Christ.

Please understand that we don't consider ourselves to have less of a presence of God because we don't have the Eucharistic adoration.
 
Upvote 0

Erose

Newbie
Jul 2, 2010
9,009
1,471
✟75,992.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I would say that when we come into the Church, we come into the Heavenly Temple of God, and we are also in the full presence of Jesus Christ.

Please understand that we don't consider ourselves to have less of a presence of God because we don't have the Eucharistic adoration.
I wouldn't think that you did anyway. If the Eucharist is in your church whether you worship Him (in the Eucharist) or not outside the Liturgy, He is still fully present.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,780
8,151
PA
Visit site
✟1,157,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I wouldn't think that you did anyway. If the Eucharist is in your church whether you worship Him or not outside the Liturgy, He is still fully present. Christ's presence is not dictated by how much He is adored.
Thing is, and I could be misinterpreting, it sound like you think we adore Christ less than you all do, based on how we worship Him. We absolutely worship Him and adore inside and out of Liturgy. To say otherwise implies that the depth our devotion, worship and love to our Lord is not understood correctly.

It's honestly quite offensive if you do have that impression.

ETA: Even if the Eucharist was not still there, it is the very temple of God and He is fully present mystically.
 
Upvote 0

Erose

Newbie
Jul 2, 2010
9,009
1,471
✟75,992.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Thing is, and I could be misinterpreting, it sound like you think we adore Christ less than you all do, based on how we worship Him. We absolutely worship Him and adore inside and out of Liturgy. To say otherwise implies that the depth our devotion, worship and love to our Lord is not understood correctly.

It's honestly quite offensive if you do have that impression.

ETA: Even if the Eucharist was not still there, it is the very temple of God and He is fully present mystically.
I meant no offense in this. I really was trying to imply that Christ isn't any less in your churches, because you don't have the tradition of Eucharistic adoration, that was the intent of my statement, and I apologize that I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

I corrected the post above.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,780
8,151
PA
Visit site
✟1,157,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I meant no offense in this. I really was trying to imply that Christ isn't any less in your churches, because you don't have the tradition of Eucharistic adoration, that was the intent of my statement, and I apologize that I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

I corrected the post above.
Thank you for clarifying :) It didn't seem like something you would typically imply - but I apparently didn't read it correctly.

FTR, I appreciate this conversation...it's been helpful for understanding. :)
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,897
14,165
✟458,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Because God is to be adored within the Liturgy and outside the liturgy. Quite honestly you answered your own question in paragraph four above. The Eucharist is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior and the Son of God, who is worthy of all adoration and praise. Adoration and praise should not be relegated only to the Liturgy, but should be in every facet of our lives

Clearly.

The point of my question about it being outside of the liturgy is that there is enough clear worship within any Orthodox prayer (inside or outside of the liturgy) that the idea of having some separate service for the adoration of the Sacrament as a thing seems...well, odd. We have the daily cycle of prayers/Agpeya, and of course corporate Vespers and Raising of Incense, and Tasbeha/Midnight Praises, etc. Quite a lot that is not within the liturgy proper. Forgive me for not making it clear that the problem is not with it being outside of liturgy, but with its form as a separate service dedicated to the worship of the Eucharist as a thing outside of a liturgical context (as the Eucharist is not meant to be taken outside of the liturgy, but for the aged and infirm who may not be able to attend liturgy).

So the simplest of answers to your question? The Eucharist is Christ our God, and Christ is worthy of all praise and adoration.

Absolutely, all praises are due to Christ our Lord and God. My question was about the form, as such a thing is absent from all Christianity outside of the Roman Catholic tradition. Again, I'm sorry for not making that clear.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,129
17,443
Florida panhandle, USA
✟930,345.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
@OrthodoxyUSA and @All4Christ -

Erose understands the three of us to have expressed different beliefs about the Eucharist.

I have not asked either of you explicitly, so perhaps we can clarify here. It was my thought that were all replying to Erose trying to make our beliefs understood, and just addressing different nuances.

So ... Can we perhaps discuss?

@dzheremi - I invite you as well. Unless something in our different Christologies affects the Eucharist, I would imagine that you would affirm our theology of the Eucharist, and we yours as well?
 
Upvote 0

Erose

Newbie
Jul 2, 2010
9,009
1,471
✟75,992.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The point of my question about it being outside of the liturgy is that there is enough clear worship within any Orthodox prayer (inside or outside of the liturgy) that the idea of having some separate service for the adoration of the Sacrament as a thing seems...well, odd. We have the daily cycle of prayers/Agpeya, and of course corporate Vespers and Raising of Incense, and Tasbeha/Midnight Praises, etc. Quite a lot that is not within the liturgy proper. Forgive me for not making it clear that the problem is not with it being outside of liturgy, but with its form as a separate service dedicated to the worship of the Eucharist as a thing outside of a liturgical context (as the Eucharist is not meant to be taken outside of the liturgy, but for the aged and infirm who may not be able to attend liturgy).
Eucharistic Adoration as a devotion, is just that a devotion that developed over the centuries, and is one way that a parish can develop greater devotion inside herself. Not all parishes have this devotion, sadly mine does not, except occasionally, and primarily after Holy Thursday's services. The benefits of the devotion have been enormous to some, as spending an hour with the Lord in prayer would benefit anyone who takes it seriously. Many parishes have what is called Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration, in which the attempt to have someone from the parish adoring the Eucharist, 24-7, usually in one hour segments. The parishes that I have talked to who have taken on the devotion, have claimed that it has helped grow and strengthen their parishes overall. Of course all of this is personal experience, and would be difficult, as in most things when it comes to faith to prove without a doubt.

Absolutely, all praises are due to Christ our Lord and God. My question was about the form, as such a thing is absent from all Christianity outside of the Roman Catholic tradition. Again, I'm sorry for not making that clear.
Like I said it is a devotion that just grew over the centuries, similar to how other devotions have grown, such as the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, etc., etc. It is just one of many tools that people of faith
have at hand to help them grow spiritually.
 
Upvote 0