The debasement of theology

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What is coming out of Rome is an uncertain sound, with papal appointees being crazy woke. I'd have never have expected that. We have a Synod going on now that is a parody of the faith, but it, like the last ones, have real resistance even among Synod participants.

I'm happy for that! I am with you.

There's this: THE PLOT TO QUEER EVANGELICAL CHURCHES | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

I think there must be a division of the same thing working to queer the Catholic Church too.

I believe it is mostly being pushed by governments. Idealy a government can do as it pleases if it's populace has no basis of morals or ethics with which to hold them accountable.

Do you think there could be another reformation with the traditional Church surviving and the liberals separating them-selves?

While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.

 

[zippy2006]

While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.

I have been thinking the same thing. As I see friends move to Orthodoxy, I notice more than ever that the problems in one church are the problems in every church. The current problems we are facing are not primarily denominational.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe it is mostly being pushed by governments. Idealy a government can do as it pleases if it's populace has no basis of morals or ethics with which to hold them accountable.

Do you think there could be another reformation with the traditional Church surviving and the liberals separating them-selves?

While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.

I think a union of traditional churches is what is needed - an alliance, in graduated steps between traditional Latin Mass Catholics, traditional Old Catholics of the Union of Scranton, continuing Anglo Catholics, orthodox Evangelical Catholics like you and @Ain't Zwinglian , the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox (which are now the two largest traditional churches remaining, with a combined membership of around 300 million), whose Western Rite Vicarates in the Antiochian and ROCOR jurisidictions are liturgically very similiar to a traditional Lutheran or Anglo Catholc or TLM or traditional Old Catholic liturgy.

There are obvious theological issues to work through, but what makes me think we can do it by pursuing at first a stage of alliance, before entering into communion, but even that I think can be achieved in due course, because of a shared believe in the Real Presence, Theosis (Entire Sanctification as traditional Methodists call it, and Christification as traditional Lutherans call it), and a rejection of Nestorianism, Iconoclasm and sexual immorality, which I see it is enough of a starting point for our respective denominations to at least start talking to each other and working on how to strike back against the increasing immorality in the mainline churches and the doctrinal issues with the pentecostal and evangelical churches.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I think a union of traditional churches is what is needed - an alliance, in graduated steps between traditional Latin Mass Catholics, traditional Old Catholics of the Union of Scranton, continuing Anglo Catholics, orthodox Evangelical Catholics like you and @Ain't Zwinglian , the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox (which are now the two largest traditional churches remaining, with a combined membership of around 300 million), whose Western Rite Vicarates in the Antiochian and ROCOR jurisidictions are liturgically very similiar to a traditional Lutheran or Anglo Catholc or TLM or traditional Old Catholic liturgy.

There are obvious theological issues to work through, but what makes me think we can do it by pursuing at first a stage of alliance, before entering into communion, but even that I think can be achieved in due course, because of a shared believe in the Real Presence, Theosis (Entire Sanctification as traditional Methodists call it, and Christification as traditional Lutherans call it), and a rejection of Nestorianism, Iconoclasm and sexual immorality, which I see it is enough of a starting point for our respective denominations to at least start talking to each other and working on how to strike back against the increasing immorality in the mainline churches and the doctrinal issues with the pentecostal and evangelical churches.

Nah. Too many epistemological issues to sort out. I am still learning more and more about confessional Lutheran!

I certainly have grown in my faith over the past four years here at CF. And hope to continue.

I do like the concept of Confessional Lutheranism as being the Western Evangelical Church purified by the Word in distinction to Rome.

 

[The Liturgist]

Nah. Too many epistemological issues to sort out. I am still learning more and more about confessional Lutheran!

I certainly have grown in my faith over the past four years here at CF. And hope to continue.

I do like the concept of Confessional Lutheranism as being the Western Evangelical Church purified by the Word in distinction to Rome.

Actually, you would be surprised by how little theological difference exists. Indeed, it is slight enough that I personally would have no qualms serving as a Lutheran or an Anglican pastor.

But furthermore there exists nothing that would preclude our respective churches from collaborating, without entering into full communion, to set things right and to defend the traditional Christian faith. There are just enough differences to interfere with entering into full communion.

Since i’ve been on CF.com, I have realized that everything that I thought was wrong with Lutheranism was wrong with just certain Lutheran denominations that are either crypto-Calvinist or ultra-liberal. I also realized, through independent research, that the Lutheran Orthodox church in Saxony during the time of JS Bach was an Orthodox Liturgical Church on a par with the high church Anglo Catholics and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches of that era (and just as there exists a direct connection between John Wesley and the Eastern Orthodox, there is also a surprising connection, albeit indirect, between Martin Luther and Oriental Orthodoxy, in that he was inspired by the existence of the Oriental Orthodox to break communion with Rome due to the problems the Roman church had at that time).

Lastly it might exhilarate you to know that by improving my understanding of Lutheranism I have been able to improve my understanding of Eastern Orthodoxy, both on those issues where our churches agree, and those where they do not, and furthermore, the interest of Lutheran theologians in justification, has been extremely helpful, since this was a weak spot to my understanding in general, due to my former denominational background, and the amount of time your church put into understanding it.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Anglican pastor.

I have major problems with the episcopacy.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have major problems with the episcopacy.

Since the LCMS and LCC are Congregational, and my background is as a Congregationalist, I understand your concerns, and I would cite the mistreatment of traditional Episcopalians and Methodists by the bishops of their denomination as an example of what a bad bishop can do. Also in saying that I would have no qualms about working as a Lutheran pastor, obviously, I could only work for a church such as the LCMS or LCC, and that would mean working in the Congregationalist polity.

At present, I am Orthodox, and we have an episcopal polity, which is mostly good, but we have some bad bishops, and have historically had some terrible bishops, such as Nestorius. Although the worst heretic I can think of was a presbyter (Arius).

That said, I have seen enough failures with the Congregational and Presbyterian church polity to the point where I have major problems with every form of church leadership, but we are required to have it - the early church was not like the Quakers or certain other denominations of that type. Rather, what is needed is accountability and oversight, and a strict policy of adherence to doctrinal and liturgical standards. In addition, I am strongly, emphatically opposed to clergy creating a cult of personality around themselves. One thing i think the Orthodox do extremely well is ensure minimal disruption when clergy are changed at a parish, whereas in the UMC church in which I grew up, everything about the parish would occasionally change depending on which minister was assigned to the church (and they were periodically rotated as per the Methodist connexional model, which created even more instability). What I dislike most are changes in worship, and implied doctrinal changes through changes in worship, on the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi, and this was also a pet peeve of CS Lewis.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Do you think there could be another reformation with the traditional Church surviving and the liberals separating them-selves?

Seems like the woke hordes are going for ownership. Much like with the Methodists it seems like the more traditional ones have to leave. And like much of the Ordinariate congregations leaving the Episcopalians they had to give up their buildings. The traditional church will survive and probably even thrive, but not always with beautiful old buildings.

While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.

That we should be doing.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I have been thinking the same thing. As I see friends move to Orthodoxy, I notice more than ever that the problems in one church are the problems in every church. The current problems we are facing are not primarily denominational.

And the solutions look like they are not going to be denominational.