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The debasement of theology

MarkRohfrietsch

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What is coming out of Rome is an uncertain sound, with papal appointees being crazy woke. I'd have never have expected that. We have a Synod going on now that is a parody of the faith, but it, like the last ones, have real resistance even among Synod participants.

I'm happy for that! I am with you.

There's this: THE PLOT TO QUEER EVANGELICAL CHURCHES | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

I think there must be a division of the same thing working to queer the Catholic Church too.
I believe it is mostly being pushed by governments. Idealy a government can do as it pleases if it's populace has no basis of morals or ethics with which to hold them accountable.

Do you think there could be another reformation with the traditional Church surviving and the liberals separating them-selves?

While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.
 
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zippy2006

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While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.
I have been thinking the same thing. As I see friends move to Orthodoxy, I notice more than ever that the problems in one church are the problems in every church. The current problems we are facing are not primarily denominational.
 
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The Liturgist

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I believe it is mostly being pushed by governments. Idealy a government can do as it pleases if it's populace has no basis of morals or ethics with which to hold them accountable.

Do you think there could be another reformation with the traditional Church surviving and the liberals separating them-selves?

While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.

I think a union of traditional churches is what is needed - an alliance, in graduated steps between traditional Latin Mass Catholics, traditional Old Catholics of the Union of Scranton, continuing Anglo Catholics, orthodox Evangelical Catholics like you and @Ain't Zwinglian , the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox (which are now the two largest traditional churches remaining, with a combined membership of around 300 million), whose Western Rite Vicarates in the Antiochian and ROCOR jurisidictions are liturgically very similiar to a traditional Lutheran or Anglo Catholc or TLM or traditional Old Catholic liturgy.

There are obvious theological issues to work through, but what makes me think we can do it by pursuing at first a stage of alliance, before entering into communion, but even that I think can be achieved in due course, because of a shared believe in the Real Presence, Theosis (Entire Sanctification as traditional Methodists call it, and Christification as traditional Lutherans call it), and a rejection of Nestorianism, Iconoclasm and sexual immorality, which I see it is enough of a starting point for our respective denominations to at least start talking to each other and working on how to strike back against the increasing immorality in the mainline churches and the doctrinal issues with the pentecostal and evangelical churches.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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I think a union of traditional churches is what is needed - an alliance, in graduated steps between traditional Latin Mass Catholics, traditional Old Catholics of the Union of Scranton, continuing Anglo Catholics, orthodox Evangelical Catholics like you and @Ain't Zwinglian , the Assyrian and Ancient Church of the East, and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox (which are now the two largest traditional churches remaining, with a combined membership of around 300 million), whose Western Rite Vicarates in the Antiochian and ROCOR jurisidictions are liturgically very similiar to a traditional Lutheran or Anglo Catholc or TLM or traditional Old Catholic liturgy.

There are obvious theological issues to work through, but what makes me think we can do it by pursuing at first a stage of alliance, before entering into communion, but even that I think can be achieved in due course, because of a shared believe in the Real Presence, Theosis (Entire Sanctification as traditional Methodists call it, and Christification as traditional Lutherans call it), and a rejection of Nestorianism, Iconoclasm and sexual immorality, which I see it is enough of a starting point for our respective denominations to at least start talking to each other and working on how to strike back against the increasing immorality in the mainline churches and the doctrinal issues with the pentecostal and evangelical churches.
Nah. Too many epistemological issues to sort out. I am still learning more and more about confessional Lutheran!

I certainly have grown in my faith over the past four years here at CF. And hope to continue.

I do like the concept of Confessional Lutheranism as being the Western Evangelical Church purified by the Word in distinction to Rome.
 
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The Liturgist

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Nah. Too many epistemological issues to sort out. I am still learning more and more about confessional Lutheran!

I certainly have grown in my faith over the past four years here at CF. And hope to continue.

I do like the concept of Confessional Lutheranism as being the Western Evangelical Church purified by the Word in distinction to Rome.

Actually, you would be surprised by how little theological difference exists. Indeed, it is slight enough that I personally would have no qualms serving as a Lutheran or an Anglican pastor.

But furthermore there exists nothing that would preclude our respective churches from collaborating, without entering into full communion, to set things right and to defend the traditional Christian faith. There are just enough differences to interfere with entering into full communion.

Since i’ve been on CF.com, I have realized that everything that I thought was wrong with Lutheranism was wrong with just certain Lutheran denominations that are either crypto-Calvinist or ultra-liberal. I also realized, through independent research, that the Lutheran Orthodox church in Saxony during the time of JS Bach was an Orthodox Liturgical Church on a par with the high church Anglo Catholics and the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches of that era (and just as there exists a direct connection between John Wesley and the Eastern Orthodox, there is also a surprising connection, albeit indirect, between Martin Luther and Oriental Orthodoxy, in that he was inspired by the existence of the Oriental Orthodox to break communion with Rome due to the problems the Roman church had at that time).

Lastly it might exhilarate you to know that by improving my understanding of Lutheranism I have been able to improve my understanding of Eastern Orthodoxy, both on those issues where our churches agree, and those where they do not, and furthermore, the interest of Lutheran theologians in justification, has been extremely helpful, since this was a weak spot to my understanding in general, due to my former denominational background, and the amount of time your church put into understanding it.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have major problems with the episcopacy.

Since the LCMS and LCC are Congregational, and my background is as a Congregationalist, I understand your concerns, and I would cite the mistreatment of traditional Episcopalians and Methodists by the bishops of their denomination as an example of what a bad bishop can do. Also in saying that I would have no qualms about working as a Lutheran pastor, obviously, I could only work for a church such as the LCMS or LCC, and that would mean working in the Congregationalist polity.

At present, I am Orthodox, and we have an episcopal polity, which is mostly good, but we have some bad bishops, and have historically had some terrible bishops, such as Nestorius. Although the worst heretic I can think of was a presbyter (Arius).

That said, I have seen enough failures with the Congregational and Presbyterian church polity to the point where I have major problems with every form of church leadership, but we are required to have it - the early church was not like the Quakers or certain other denominations of that type. Rather, what is needed is accountability and oversight, and a strict policy of adherence to doctrinal and liturgical standards. In addition, I am strongly, emphatically opposed to clergy creating a cult of personality around themselves. One thing i think the Orthodox do extremely well is ensure minimal disruption when clergy are changed at a parish, whereas in the UMC church in which I grew up, everything about the parish would occasionally change depending on which minister was assigned to the church (and they were periodically rotated as per the Methodist connexional model, which created even more instability). What I dislike most are changes in worship, and implied doctrinal changes through changes in worship, on the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi, and this was also a pet peeve of CS Lewis.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Do you think there could be another reformation with the traditional Church surviving and the liberals separating them-selves?
Seems like the woke hordes are going for ownership. Much like with the Methodists it seems like the more traditional ones have to leave. And like much of the Ordinariate congregations leaving the Episcopalians they had to give up their buildings. The traditional church will survive and probably even thrive, but not always with beautiful old buildings.
While our two Churches are still worlds away from full fellowship; maybe a confederation of moral and ethically conservative Churches could at least show a unified position on their stand regarding the secular world.
That we should be doing.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I have been thinking the same thing. As I see friends move to Orthodoxy, I notice more than ever that the problems in one church are the problems in every church. The current problems we are facing are not primarily denominational.
And the solutions look like they are not going to be denominational.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Teofrastus

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I am currently reading, https://monoskop.org/images/b/b1/Eliade_Mircea_The_Sacred_and_The_profane_1963.pdf

And it is helping me to appreciate that primordial distinction between sacred and profane, especially in terms of the sacraments.
God may be omnipresent, but there is more to our experience of the Holy.
Yes, Eliade helps us preserve the sense of wonder that Jesus alludes to when he speaks of becoming like children again. The other day I posted a review of "Revival of the Gnostic Heresy: Fundamentalism" by Joe E. Morris (here). Once again, we encounter the same issue! He presents us with an immanentist theology in which the separation between the heavenly and the worldly is abolished. I argue instead that "we must navigate the division between spirit and matter while seeking healing through Jesus Christ." While Morris's book has merit, I am tired of this secular perspective. It's like Welker says: Christian authors contribute to the erosion of Christianity.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Yes, Eliade helps us preserve the sense of wonder that Jesus alludes to when he speaks of becoming like children again. The other day I posted a review of "Revival of the Gnostic Heresy: Fundamentalism" by Joe E. Morris (here). Once again, we encounter the same issue! He presents us with an immanentist theology in which the separation between the heavenly and the worldly is abolished. I argue instead that "we must navigate the division between spirit and matter while seeking healing through Jesus Christ." While Morris's book has merit, I am tired of this secular perspective. It's like Welker says: Christian authors contribute to the erosion of Christianity.
Yes, God may indeed be omnipresent but there are still special times and places when and where God chooses to reveal, manifest.
Eliade uses the term "Hierophany".

So while we all may be part of the Body of Christ and God may dwell in all of us, Jesus is a uniquely powerful and real revelation and manifestation.
While God may be everywhere and in all things, The Eucharist is a special "substance, event, presence, action" chosen by Christ to reveal himself.
God establishes a boundary between sacred and profane even though the profane exists in God.
 
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Teofrastus

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Luckily, Augustine offers valuable guidance. He provides a significant critique of historical progressivism. In his theological framework, temporal history does not advance towards an earthly culmination or utopian endpoint. I review R. W. Dyson's "St Augustine of Hippo: The Christian Transformation of Political Philosophy" (2005), here.
 
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Jonaitis

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What is behind the decline of Protestant theology that began in the sixties? By way of an example, I recently posted this review on Goodreads:

Ronald Gregor Smith (The Doctrine of God, 1970) struggles with his faith. He thinks that the traditional doctrine of God has reached a dead end. He rejects supernaturalistic theism as a “primitive mythology” that could “be cultivated in private by a dwindling company of romantics and introverts” (p. 79). Smith can no longer believe in God as a self-subsistent being residing in an otherworldly realm. Rather, God exists in the way he makes himself present in history: “It is only within the dynamism of history as the place and the time of irreversible personal decisions that the Word is truly heard…” (p. 37). Thus, “we are offered the reality of a life which is taken out of the old, apparently endless, search for a reality beyond this temporal world. The magic of Plato is exorcised” (p. 43). He even depreciates the bible:

[T]he normative historical power is not and cannot be any traditional documents, not even the Bible, but is solely the person of Christ. Therefore, it is a methodological error of the first order to suppose that Christianity is based upon a book, and that a true theology is one which discovers what the Bible says and then re-asserts this in a ‘modern’ fashion — but all the same, basically just repeats what the Bible says. (p. 72)​

For Smith, ‘God as Being’ is not a satisfactory category for Christian theology. The reality of God is historical rather than metaphysical. Christianity is not the record of a miraculous epiphany, but is about man’s historical experience (p. 114). I question: what remains of faith, then, if we remove the essential objects of faith, namely the bible and the heavenly realm? Smith’s answer is that we shall have a faith that is rooted in history, not the least in kerygmatic history. It seems that there is not much religiosity left in Smith’s Christianity. He says that “spirit” is only “the total reality of our humanity” (p. 130) and “the Christian faith does not really propose more than a way for us to walk” (p. 142).

We have to remain content with the little that remains of God: “In every historical encounter there is a residue or an overplus of mystery” (p. 177). So, God is not totally dead — there is a little residue left. The central tenets of Smith’s theology are a “thorough historicity of God” and a continual “self-realization of God in history” (p. 181). But he doesn’t explain how a God that lacks transcendent being can manifest in history. Despite his materialistic and rationalistic worldview, Smith tries to cling to the Christian faith by formulating a minimalistic version that builds on a God that is immanent in history. It is not an unintelligent book; but it is a depressing reading experience. Smith lived in a grey and uninspiring world. He died while writing this book, from boredom, I guess.

I know that Catholic theologians do a lot of bad theology, but do Protestant theologians still think this way? I have delved into this matter and have found that the modern sickness of theology is connected with the “immanentization of the eschaton” (Eric Voegelin). It has contributed to secularization and the rise of materialist ideology. I found that one of the main culprits behind this development is Martin Luther himself. Lutheran theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg followed through and produced a thoroughly immanentistic theology, very similar to Smith's. To get a better grasp on this tragic development, read my short paper. I suggest a new interpretation of the Wisdom of God and argue that the immanentization of Christian religion has stifled the spirit of the feminine and contributed to secularization:

Some remarks on Wolfhart Pannenberg’s theology, the immanentization of the eschaton and the misinterpretation of the kingdom of God.
The decline of Protestant theology that began in the 1960s, as exemplified by Ronald Gregor Smith's theological struggles, reveals a shift away from transcendent, supernatural conceptions of God toward a more immanent and historically grounded view. However, while it may be tempting to criticize this move as a form of theological reductionism, it is important to recognize that Smith's work, and the broader trend he represents, is not so much an abandonment of faith but an attempt to make Christian theology more relevant to contemporary concerns.

Smith's rejection of "supernaturalistic theism" as "primitive mythology" reflects an intellectual response to the modern challenges of materialism, secularism, and historical criticism. His emphasis on the "dynamism of history" as the locus of God's presence speaks to a broader theological trend that seeks to reframe the relationship between the divine and the world in a way that resonates with modern understandings of history and experience. In this view, the transcendence of God is not rejected but rather reinterpreted: God is seen not as an otherworldly being in a distant realm, but as present within the fabric of history itself, in the lived experiences of individuals and communities.

While the critique of Smith's theology may focus on the apparent loss of the heavenly realm and the centrality of Scripture, it overlooks the fact that Smith, like many modern theologians, is engaged in a re-imagining of the Christian faith in a way that challenges the traditional bifurcation between the sacred and the secular. For Smith, the person of Christ becomes the central norm, not because it is a rejection of Scripture, but because Christ is understood as the historical revelation of God's presence, not confined to texts but made manifest in the events of human life.

The notion that faith, if not anchored in a metaphysical or supernatural God, lacks substance or religiosity is a misunderstanding of the scope of Smith's theological project. He is not denying the mystery of God or the need for a form of worship; he is suggesting that our understanding of the divine must evolve to meet the realities of a modern, secular world. His theology challenges believers to find the sacred in the concrete, historical moments of life, rather than retreating to a purely metaphysical or otherworldly conception of God.

As for the argument that this shift contributes to secularization, the critique overlooks the fact that the immanentization of the eschaton — the belief that the divine can be found within history rather than in an apocalyptic future — does not necessarily lead to secularism, but can instead provide a framework for finding meaning in the present. In fact, by emphasizing the presence of the divine in human history and experience, this view may offer a deeper connection to the world, rather than pushing people away from it. The secularization critique assumes that belief in a transcendent God is the only way to preserve religiosity, but it overlooks the possibility that a more immanent theology might be a way of affirming the sacredness of human existence in a secular age.

Regarding the claim that the immanentization of Christianity has stifled the "spirit of the feminine" and contributed to secularization, this is a more complex issue. The decline of transcendent theologies has often been linked to a reduction in the mystical and embodied aspects of religious experience, which could arguably suppress a fuller expression of the feminine. However, the problem lies not so much in the shift toward immanence itself, but in how that shift is carried out. A truly robust, immanent theology would recognize the feminine aspect of divine revelation as essential, rather than reducing the divine to a mere reflection of historical events or rational categories. Smith's theology, while minimalist, does not necessarily preclude such an interpretation but might instead benefit from further development in this direction.

Finally, while the immanentization of theology can be seen as a response to modern challenges, it is not inherently a betrayal of Christian orthodoxy. In fact, by reevaluating the metaphysical categories of traditional theology, it offers an opportunity for a more profound and nuanced understanding of the divine that can meet the existential needs of modern believers. The real issue is not that Protestant theology has lost its way, but that it needs to continue evolving in ways that integrate both transcendence and immanence, mystery and history, the sacred and the secular.
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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There is indeed a serious decline in theology in general, across all public human authorities I have studied. But I'll have to suggest that in general this is a good thing. For many centuries there were gangs of arguers that agreed with each other while agreeing to disregard and/or condemn arguments (and originally, imprison and/or kill people) from other gangs. Since the dissemination of the printing press, however, and as the Lord delivers more information technology into this world, the gangs of arguers have had their foundations weakened steadily. Now with the Internet, the strength of argument-gangs is extremely weak, and weakening more and more, towards a much simpler general bifurcation: the things that Christ the Lord has Personally said, done, and discussed on one hand; and everything else on the other. The only truly lasting and firm foundation, is the things Christ the Lord has Personally said, done and discussed, and so to the extent that this foundation is built upon and glorified, to the extent that argument-ganging is repented and obedience to Christ the Lord sought, we see the opposite of decline.

But there will be much decline in the argument-gangs. I praise the Lord!
 
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Teofrastus

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The decline of Protestant theology that began in the 1960s, as exemplified by Ronald Gregor Smith's theological struggles, reveals a shift away from transcendent, supernatural conceptions of God toward a more immanent and historically grounded view. However, while it may be tempting to criticize this move as a form of theological reductionism, it is important to recognize that Smith's work, and the broader trend he represents, is not so much an abandonment of faith but an attempt to make Christian theology more relevant to contemporary concerns.

Smith's rejection of "supernaturalistic theism" as "primitive mythology" reflects an intellectual response to the modern challenges of materialism, secularism, and historical criticism. His emphasis on the "dynamism of history" as the locus of God's presence speaks to a broader theological trend that seeks to reframe the relationship between the divine and the world in a way that resonates with modern understandings of history and experience. In this view, the transcendence of God is not rejected but rather reinterpreted: God is seen not as an otherworldly being in a distant realm, but as present within the fabric of history itself, in the lived experiences of individuals and communities.

While the critique of Smith's theology may focus on the apparent loss of the heavenly realm and the centrality of Scripture, it overlooks the fact that Smith, like many modern theologians, is engaged in a re-imagining of the Christian faith in a way that challenges the traditional bifurcation between the sacred and the secular. For Smith, the person of Christ becomes the central norm, not because it is a rejection of Scripture, but because Christ is understood as the historical revelation of God's presence, not confined to texts but made manifest in the events of human life.

The notion that faith, if not anchored in a metaphysical or supernatural God, lacks substance or religiosity is a misunderstanding of the scope of Smith's theological project. He is not denying the mystery of God or the need for a form of worship; he is suggesting that our understanding of the divine must evolve to meet the realities of a modern, secular world. His theology challenges believers to find the sacred in the concrete, historical moments of life, rather than retreating to a purely metaphysical or otherworldly conception of God.

As for the argument that this shift contributes to secularization, the critique overlooks the fact that the immanentization of the eschaton — the belief that the divine can be found within history rather than in an apocalyptic future — does not necessarily lead to secularism, but can instead provide a framework for finding meaning in the present. In fact, by emphasizing the presence of the divine in human history and experience, this view may offer a deeper connection to the world, rather than pushing people away from it. The secularization critique assumes that belief in a transcendent God is the only way to preserve religiosity, but it overlooks the possibility that a more immanent theology might be a way of affirming the sacredness of human existence in a secular age.

Regarding the claim that the immanentization of Christianity has stifled the "spirit of the feminine" and contributed to secularization, this is a more complex issue. The decline of transcendent theologies has often been linked to a reduction in the mystical and embodied aspects of religious experience, which could arguably suppress a fuller expression of the feminine. However, the problem lies not so much in the shift toward immanence itself, but in how that shift is carried out. A truly robust, immanent theology would recognize the feminine aspect of divine revelation as essential, rather than reducing the divine to a mere reflection of historical events or rational categories. Smith's theology, while minimalist, does not necessarily preclude such an interpretation but might instead benefit from further development in this direction.

Finally, while the immanentization of theology can be seen as a response to modern challenges, it is not inherently a betrayal of Christian orthodoxy. In fact, by reevaluating the metaphysical categories of traditional theology, it offers an opportunity for a more profound and nuanced understanding of the divine that can meet the existential needs of modern believers. The real issue is not that Protestant theology has lost its way, but that it needs to continue evolving in ways that integrate both transcendence and immanence, mystery and history, the sacred and the secular.
Pardon my frankness, but the above is a lot of nonsense! In ancient religions the gods existed in two places at once. The Greeks' gods lived both in the celestial realms and on Mount Olympus, while Egyptian gods were believed to be in both their spirit realm (Duat) and in physical temples. This idea continues in Christianity today—Jesus is understood to be both in heaven and present during communion.

It's hard to make sense of Jesus being present in communion bread and wine if he isn't also eternally in heaven. If you take away the "up there" part, you lose what makes religion work—this connection between our world and something beyond it.

Every system requires an external source to sustain itself. A mechanical system requires energy input from beyond itself, such as a car's dependence on fuel. Gödel's incompleteness theorems demonstrated that no logical system can prove its own consistency—it necessarily requires reference to truths outside itself.

This principle of external dependency appears to be universal. The attempt to reduce any system to pure self-reference—whether in logic, mechanics, or theology—inevitably results in operational collapse. The immanentization of transcendent principles thus represents a fundamental category error.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have been thinking the same thing. As I see friends move to Orthodoxy, I notice more than ever that the problems in one church are the problems in every church. The current problems we are facing are not primarily denominational.

It is my experience that the Orthodox Church, while not devoid of problems, lacks many of the problems of the Western churches. And where such problems exist, frankly, they tend to be contained within the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and its subordinate jurisdictions such as the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America. I like the Greek Orthodox Patriarchs of Alexandria and Jerusalem, but the Phanar (the neighborhood in Istanbul where all of the seniormost bishops in the Patriarchate of Constantinople are from) seems to have lost its way to some extent, although important parts of the Orthodox Church remain under their jurisdiction, for example, Mount Athos, and the monasteries of Elder Ephrem in North America, which are the one bright spot in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese.
 
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