The controversy over John 6:4

[visionary]

I suggested that if John 6:4 is removed, everything begins to align much better in the events of Yeshua's ministry of following the Will of His Father in all matters including the decrees of the feasts. We looked at all the surrounding text that exposed the reason that Passover could not have been happening at that time. Yeshua wasn’t traveling to Jerusalem as the law instructs all males should, Yeshua was teaching in a synagogue which was full of Jews who should have also been traveling to Jerusalem. The last revelation is that many people had no food which wouldn’t make sense if people were making this trek to Jerusalem because they would have had supplies during their travels.

Here is my suggestion as to how it came about for John 6:4 to read the way it currently does in scripture. The earliest kept copy of scripture from which all other scriptures have been copied contained an error. "But the holy day of the Jews was approaching,” and that text had to do with the holy days of the Feast of Tabernacles… but the copyist, since he was not paying attention to it, wrote Pascha [Passover]

If you think this is not possible, look at the fact you can find "Easter" a non Jewish celebration of the Romans.

 

[visionary]

Henry Browne, a Christian scholar from 1844, was struggling to work out the chronology of Yeshua as well.

The reading of the text [in] John VI:4… though it is found, I believe, in all the MSS and versions, could not have been found in the text of the two first centuries.

Henry Browne

 

[visionary]

For more on this subject...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If you think this is not possible, look at the fact you can find "Easter" a non Jewish celebration of the Romans.

Vis, what do you mean here?

 

[HARK!]

(CLV) Jn 6:4
Now near was the Passover, the festival of the Jews.

This verse has puzzled me for quite some time.

Why would a "Jew" write an account of "Jews," concerning a Moed, that is honored by "Jews," to be read by "Jews," who knew very well what Pesach was, when Pesach was honored, and why; and then explain to "Jews," that Pesach was a Moed honored by "Jews?"

 

[sandman]

I suggested that if John 6:4 is removed, everything begins to align much better in the events of Yeshua's ministry of following the Will of His Father in all matters including the decrees of the feasts. We looked at all the surrounding text that exposed the reason that Passover could not have been happening at that time. Yeshua wasn’t traveling to Jerusalem as the law instructs all males should, Yeshua was teaching in a synagogue which was full of Jews who should have also been traveling to Jerusalem. The last revelation is that many people had no food which wouldn’t make sense if people were making this trek to Jerusalem because they would have had supplies during their travels.

Here is my suggestion as to how it came about for John 6:4 to read the way it currently does in scripture. The earliest kept copy of scripture from which all other scriptures have been copied contained an error. "But the holy day of the Jews was approaching,” and that text had to do with the holy days of the Feast of Tabernacles… but the copyist, since he was not paying attention to it, wrote Pascha [Passover]

If you think this is not possible, look at the fact you can find "Easter" a non Jewish celebration of the Romans.

It does seem to stick out as being out of place like it was stuck in there.....
I mean preparation for different individuals or families could be started a month prior ....but it still doesn't fit.

 

[sandman]

I suggested that if John 6:4 is removed, everything begins to align much better in the events of Yeshua's ministry of following the Will of His Father in all matters including the decrees of the feasts. We looked at all the surrounding text that exposed the reason that Passover could not have been happening at that time. Yeshua wasn’t traveling to Jerusalem as the law instructs all males should, Yeshua was teaching in a synagogue which was full of Jews who should have also been traveling to Jerusalem. The last revelation is that many people had no food which wouldn’t make sense if people were making this trek to Jerusalem because they would have had supplies during their travels.

Here is my suggestion as to how it came about for John 6:4 to read the way it currently does in scripture. The earliest kept copy of scripture from which all other scriptures have been copied contained an error. "But the holy day of the Jews was approaching,” and that text had to do with the holy days of the Feast of Tabernacles… but the copyist, since he was not paying attention to it, wrote Pascha [Passover]

If you think this is not possible, look at the fact you can find "Easter" a non Jewish celebration of the Romans.

This is going to bug me .... For a couple reasons I have always believed that Christ's ministry was a year and a few months, not 3 years. Of coarse what I believe is irrelevant, if this verse stands. I have always thought that the word "Passover" was added, but I don't know where I got that information.... and I never did a thorough investigation into it...which I am going to do.
I do know that ....what were once the feasts of Jehovah were changed to feasts of the Jew’s including ones that did not require travel to Jerusalem.
There is a brother in Christ who is a Hebrew and Aramaic scholar whom I have known for years. He has written a few books.... one of which is "The Acceptable Year of the Lord" which quite possibly addresses this.... I just have to find the book ….If not, I will give Walter a call....but I will find the answer.

 

[visionary]

Vis, what do you mean here?

Acts 12:4
And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

 

[visionary]

This is going to bug me .... For a couple reasons I have always believed that Christ's ministry was a year and a few months, not 3 years. Of coarse what I believe is irrelevant, if this verse stands. I have always thought that the word "Passover" was added, but I don't know where I got that information.... and I never did a thorough investigation into it...which I am going to do.
I do know that ....what were once the feasts of Jehovah were changed to feasts of the Jew’s including ones that did not require travel to Jerusalem.
There is a brother in Christ who is a Hebrew and Aramaic scholar whom I have known for years. He has written a few books.... one of which is "The Acceptable Year of the Lord" which quite possibly addresses this.... I just have to find the book ….If not, I will give Walter a call....but I will find the answer.

Yes, maybe fill in a few blanks and answer with more details than what I have gathered.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Acts 12:4
And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

What translation is that? Original says Pascha (πάσχα)

 

[visionary]

What translation is that? Original says Pascha (πάσχα)

KJV

 

[dani'el]

I suggested that if John 6:4 is removed, everything begins to align much better in the events of Yeshua's ministry of following the Will of His Father in all matters including the decrees of the feasts. We looked at all the surrounding text that exposed the reason that Passover could not have been happening at that time. Yeshua wasn’t traveling to Jerusalem as the law instructs all males should, Yeshua was teaching in a synagogue which was full of Jews who should have also been traveling to Jerusalem. The last revelation is that many people had no food which wouldn’t make sense if people were making this trek to Jerusalem because they would have had supplies during their travels.

This is recorded in all the Gospels, but Yochanon gives us the best clues as to what is going on. Names of places can tell us a lot, as can the land itself. But we have to pay attention to the subtle hints:
John 6:1-14 (ESV) 1 After this Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
Yeshua has gone from the Decapolis “To the other side of the Sea of Galilee.” ‘Going to the other side’ is actually a Hebraism for going from one political region to another- crossing a border, if you will. So He didn’t just go from one side of the lake to the other, he crossed a political border. He left the Decapolis, a region with many Hellenized Jews and Gentiles and areas of conservative Jews. He goes into the Galil (Galilee) which has a Jewish worldview except for the Hellenism of the cities built up by Herod.
2 And a large crowd was following him, because they saw the signs that he was doing on the sick.
Remember He “came for the lost sheep of Israel,” and it sounds like many followed to hear this man most likely to be ha’moshiach.
3 Jesus went up on the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples. 4 Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.
Here in your thesis text Yochanon mentions Pesach. This tells us it was spring, and now I’m going to speculate a bit. I am “Hebrew Primacy” when it comes to the so called “New Testament.” I believe it was entirely written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek, then into English; all with who knows how many intervening translations at any point. So this could be a general reference that the Greek scribe or other translators got wrong. It just means at the same season as the Passover, not just before as it sounds to us. If Pesach was “at hand” Yeshua and every observant male and many others would all be “going up” to Yerushalayim, as you have pointed out. Apparently they were not.
So it’s springtime in the Galil. The barley harvest is done, but the wheat harvest has not yet been completed, and possibly not started in the wetter northern regions. However everyone is thinking of the Exodus, as it is around the time of Pesach.
5 Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, “Where are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?” 6 He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he would do. 7 Philip answered him, “Two hundred denarii [A denarius was a day's wage for a laborer] worth of bread would not be enough for each of them to get a little.” 8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to him, 9 “There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two fish, but what are they for so many?”
Barley being the first grain harvested the boy had barley loaves, and he had fish because he lived by Lake Tiberius (the Sea of Galilee).
10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” Now there was much grass in the place.
“There was much grass in the place” because it’s right after the rainy season, in the spring.
So the men sat down, about five thousand in number.
11 Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated. So also the fish, as much as they wanted. 12 And when they had eaten their fill, he told his disciples, “Gather up the leftover fragments, that nothing may be lost.” 13 So they gathered them up and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves left by those who had eaten.
We are actually being given another hint that this is the springtime, and what the connection to Pesach is. They filled twelve baskets of barley loaves. This is important, because of what happened soon after the first Pesach. YHVH-Shammah, God Who is There- who is available when needed (Eze 48:35) took His people into the wilderness. There were twelve tribes, and He miraculously provided manna for them. Yochanon has given us a verbal picture of Yeshua recreating what Elohei Yisroel did for His people so long ago at this time. Yeshua miraculously provides for His people- those who come to Him.
14 When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, “This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!”
They recognize what is happening! He, the Anointed One is recreating the history of the Jewish people. Now go forward to John 6:35 & 48 where Yeshua says straight up He is the “Bread of Life.” This is not lost on the people. Everyone is watching this man Yeshua. They hear of what He is doing, and they know what He says. And they pick up on the subtle references even much later after these things are written down and circulated. But we must think as they did or we’ll miss it.

Most of this is my interpretation of a course I took from Dr. C Parker (just so you know I’m not a genius ).

 

[Mr. M]

I suggested that if John 6:4 is removed, everything begins to align much better in the events of Yeshua's ministry of following the Will of His Father in all matters including the decrees of the feasts. We looked at all the surrounding text that exposed the reason that Passover could not have been happening at that time.

This is only a problem if you try to fit John 6
chronologically between chapters 5 and 7.
The Acceptable Year of the Lord.
John 2, ministry begins, first miracle at Cana.
First pilgrimage feast for Passover, clearing of the Temple.
Chapter 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2nd pilgrimage.
Chapter 7:2 Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand.
Third visit.
Christ was crucified before the next Passover, end of
"the acceptable year". So what happened with John 6?
Clearly purposeful was his decision to pair the miracle
of the loaves, to the Lord proclaiming
"I am the bread of life".
What was the result of this incident?
John 6:
66 From that time many of His disciples went back
and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve,
“Do you also want to go away?”

John 6:4 informs us that this occured prior to the
Passover visit, chronicled in John chapter 2. The
result and clear purpose was to rid Himself of the
crowds who followed, but would not obey His Word.
When the Lord visited Jerusalem, it was primarily with
His chosen disciples, the crowds having been "culled"
by the Lord's words:
53 Then Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and
drink His blood, you have no life in you.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this,
said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were
who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

 

[daq]

This is only a problem if you try to fit John 6 chronologically between chapters 5 and 7.

What about John 6:1a? This statement also says, "After these things", making it a chronological passage intended to be reckoned between chapters five and seven.

John 5:1a ~ "After these things"
John 6:1a ~ "After these things"
John 7:1a ~ "And after these things"

 

[Mr. M]

What about John 6:1a? This statement also says, "After these things", making it a chronological passage intended to be reckoned between chapters five and seven.

John 5:1a ~ "After these things"
John 6:1a ~ "After these things"
John 7:1a ~ "And after these things"

Great question! Thanks for responding.
Chapter 5 takes place in Jerusalem, at a feast time.
John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the
Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
Wait, now we are back in Galilee!
There is a difference between a time stamped
chronology, and saying that the events in John
6 took place before the Passover, mentioned
in Chapter 2. I don't know what "after these things"
refers to specifically, but it is a pretty big jump from
the feast to get back to Galilee. Very interesting indeed.
Is there anything that would support John 3 occurring
before the events at the well of Samaria in John 4?
The bottom line for me is this, does chapter 3 of any
book of the Bible have to have occurred before chapter
4? Is there some hard and fast rule of chronology in
that regard? Often, it is obviously yes. But a rule?
During my devotions, I ask the Lord, what is the intent,
the logos behind this narrative?
What stood out was the end result of the incident.
Many disciples walking away at that point comes across
as very significant to me, particularly in relation to the
idea of the Messiah making His appearances in Jerusalem
for the feasts. He is greeted by crowds on "Palm Sunday",
but they would soon be shouting "crucify Him"!
What I find is that prior to making the three feasts, the
Lord rid Himself of "spectators", to travel with His apostles.

 

[daq]

Great question! Thanks for responding.
Chapter 5 takes place in Jerusalem, at a feast time.
John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the
Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
Wait, now we are back in Galilee!
There is a difference between a time stamped
chronology, and saying that the events in John
6 took place before the Passover, mentioned
in Chapter 2. I don't know what "after these things"
refers to specifically, but it is a pretty big jump from
the feast to get back to Galilee. Very interesting indeed.
Is there anything that would support John 3 occurring
before the events at the well of Samaria in John 4?
The bottom line for me is this, does chapter 3 of any
book of the Bible have to have occurred before chapter
4? Is there some hard and fast rule of chronology in
that regard? Often, it is obviously yes. But a rule?
During my devotions, I ask the Lord, what is the intent,
the logos behind this narrative?
What stood out was the end result of the incident.
Many disciples walking away at that point comes across
as very significant to me, particularly in relation to the
idea of the Messiah making His appearances in Jerusalem
for the feasts. He is greeted by crowds on "Palm Sunday",
but they would soon be shouting "crucify Him"!
What I find is that prior to making the three feasts, the
Lord rid Himself of "spectators", to travel with His apostles.

Once one understands the time prophecies in Daniel, and understands that this Gospel account is fulfilling all of them in the one year ministry of the Meshiah, only then does the chronological framework appear for what it was originally intended by the author to be.

As for the Pesach of John 6, see the background reference material from which it derives, (2 Kings 4:38-44), where the barley loaves are barley bikkurim, (firstfruits, 2 Kings 4:42).

If therefore the statement in John 6:4 was inserted by someone else at a later time with an axe to grind: he was either an ignorant scripture illiterate, or didn't care one iota about the Master fulfilling the Torah and Prophets, and in fact, causes the Master to be breaking the Torah by staying in the Galil during the feast of Pesach Matzot.

This sure sounds like someone whose writings are well known, who also had an axe to grind due to his beliefs concerning the time prophecies in Daniel, and believed that the ministry of the Meshiah was supposed to have been three and a half years despite the fact that "Your lamb shall be the son of a year". The same individual has also been implicated by some in several of the glosses and corruptions in the writings of Josephus.

 

[Mr. M]

If therefore the statement in John 6:4 was inserted by someone else at a later time with an axe to grind: he was either an ignorant scripture illiterate, or didn't care one iota about the Master fulfilling the Torah and Prophets, and in fact, causes the Master to be breaking the Torah by staying in the Galil during the feast of Pesach Matzot.

Or, John wrote it for the express purpose of notifying
the reader that the events of this narrative (ch 6) took place
prior to the Passover, which chronologically places them
after the wedding at Cana, and before the first pilgrimage.
I am not comfortable with the "scribal error" or "wack job
with an axe to grind" explanation. Way too convenient to
emend and redact any scripture that presents 'difficulty'.
Why not pray? Why not ask like we are instructed?
If disciples were going to turn away because of "that's a
hard saying", how would they react when the Lord started
turning back tables at the Passover in chapter 2?

 

[daq]

Or, John wrote it for the express purpose of notifying
the reader that the events of this narrative (ch 6) took place
prior to the Passover, which chronologically places them
after the wedding at Cana, and before the first pilgrimage.

When is the Omer-Wave Sheaf offered according to the Torah? Again, this is background context:

2 Kings 4:42-44 KJV
42 And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.
43 And his servitor said, What, should I set this before an hundred men? He said again, Give the people, that they may eat: for thus saith the LORD, They shall eat, and shall leave thereof.
44 So he set it before them, and they did eat, and left thereof, according to the word of the LORD.

Moreover the KJV is probably wrong in rendering "full ears of corn in the husk", as most other translations dispute this reading even from the Hebrew text, but the LXX is even more likely, and it matches the situation in John 6 even more closely because of the opsarion, (perhaps relish in the form of dried fish or fish cakes).

2 Kings 4:42 LXX (Brenton)
42 And there came a man over from Baetharisa, and brought to the man of God twenty barley loaves and cakes of figs, of the first-fruits. And he said, Give to the people, and let them eat.

The young man or lad in John 6 probably had fives loaves in his sack which he would have worn on his back, and along with that two small fish-cakes, as if like a relish or spread which would have been a condiment for the loaves. It's actually hardly any different from the 2 Kings passage except for the numbers involved. However, even the numbers have a relationship, for one hundred divided by twenty is five, (the 2 Kings passage), and in John 6 we have both the five loaves and also five thousand men.

There is no doubt in my mind that the author of the John 6 passage is providing a reference back to this passage with the mention of barley and because of the miracle involved. Why would this be important? because the barley loaves in the 2 Kings passage are made with barley of the bikkurim, that is, firstfruits.

This therefore cannot be prior to the Pesach as you suggest. Moreover that is what the text also now requires us to believe because it now says that the Pesach was at hand or near. This word, eggus, as far as I have seen or heard or read, is never used in the sense of something or some event just having passed. In all the places I have seen it used it is generally anywhere from two weeks out up to the same day of an event or whatever is said to be near or at hand.

Why not pray? Why not ask like we are instructed?

Why assume that I have not done these things?

 

[Mr. M]

Why assume that I have not done these things?

I made no assumptions, I just didn't find much
insight in a rant about people with an axe to grind.
Honestly, it made you sound like someone with an
axe to grind.
Thanks for sharing the background on the feasts.
That's a lot to get out of
9 There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and
two small fish, but what are they among so many?

 

[Mr. M]

When is the Omer-Wave Sheaf offered according to the Torah? Again, this is background context:

Isn't this the setting for chapter 5?
After this there was a feast of the Jews,
and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.