The book of Tobit is fiction?

[Rhamiel]

http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html

Similarly, both Judith and Tobit have a number of historical and geographical errors, not because they're presenting bad history and erroneous geography, but because they're first-rate pious stories that don't pretend to be remotely interested with teaching history or geography, any more than the Resurrection narratives in the Gospels are interested in astronomy. Indeed, the author of Tobit goes out of his way to make clear that his hero is fictional. He makes Tobit the uncle of Ahiqar, a figure in ancient Semitic folklore like "Jack the Giant Killer" or "Aladdin." Just as one wouldn't wave a medieval history textbook around and complain about a tale that begins "once upon a time when King Arthur ruled the land," so Catholics are not reading Tobit and Judith to get a history lesson.

This is disturbing, I fear I am too literal minded sometimes, reading things like this shake my faith a lot, my lack of understanding of the Eucharist is also something that is bothering me.

 

[stone]

hmm.. i don't recall reading Tobit. Do you mind if i ask for someone more knowledgeable of the book to give a brief explanation of it?

 

[Sphinx777]

hmm.. i don't recall reading Tobit. Do you mind if i ask for someone more knowledgeable of the book to give a brief explanation of it?

As you will it, so shall it be...

The Book Of Tobit, What Do You Know?

 

[Breaking Babylon]

So stop reading them, Rhamiel.

And what is the point in understanding the Eucharist? Why does human reasoning or logic undermine spiritual truths? Wrapping our minds around the concept of the Trinity is humanly impossible, but that doesn't mean we believe in God less because of it. The fact that is the Eucharist is not dependent on how we intellectually perceive it. The concept of trying to dumb spiritual realities down into human reasoning is a vain and fruitless effort, that's going to lead you nowhere fast.

"Be still, and know that I am God."

 

[DD2008]

hmm.. i don't recall reading Tobit. Do you mind if i ask for someone more knowledgeable of the book to give a brief explanation of it?

Tobit the son of Tobias gets married to Sarah who had been married 7 times however none were consumated because the demon Asmodeus would kill anyone who tried to touch her. So the Arch Angel Raphael hears the prayers of Tobit and Sarah and presents them before God who send him on a mission to assist. He in disguise has Tobit catch a fish take out some parts of it burn it in the room with the girl to drive away the demon, and has him use the fish bile to put on Tobias's eyes because during all this he had white crust on his eyes because a pigeon defecated in them. So, Tobit and Sarah were wed, prayed a nice prayer, Tobias was healed, Raphael comes clean about the disguise everyone praises God and there is a happy ending.

It was supposedly written by Tobias by a command from Raphael.

 

[stone]

Tobit the son of Tobias gets married to Sarah who had been married 7 times however none were consumated because the demon Asmodeus would kill anyone who tried to touch her. So the Arch Angel Raphael hears the prayers of Tobit and Sarah and presents them before God who send him on a mission to assist. He in disguise has Tobit catch a fish take out some parts of it burn it in the room with the girl to drive away the demon, and has him use the fish bile to put on Tobias's eyes because during all this he had white crust on his eyes because a pigeon defecated in them. So, Tobit and Sarah were wed, prayed a nice prayer, Tobias was healed, Raphael comes clean about the disguise everyone praises God and there is a happy ending.

It was supposedly written by Tobias by a command from Raphael.

lol, not bad, i just read it here too- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Tobit

 

[Michie]

I remember reading the book of Tobit. There is usually an introduction before each book. If recall the introduction correctly it said it was a fictional Jewish tale but the message & morals based on truth.

 

[Rhamiel]

oh it is a nice book, I have not read a lot of the OT but I have read Tobit
Ok, this takes place during the babylonian exile, there is a rich jew living in exile, he gives money to the poor, he makes sure that other jews get a proper burial, well he falls asleep outside and bird droppings fall on his face and he goes blind, well he hates being blind and plans on ending his own life, at the same time, in another city, there is a girl, Sarah, who every time she gets married, a demon shows up and kills her husband, this has happened like 7 times or something, well she wants to end her life as well.
Well God hears there prayers and sends the Archangel Raphael, Tobit has a son, Tobias, and before he dies he wants to make sure that his family will be taken care of, so he sends his son on a journy to get a bag of gold that a friend is holding for him in another city. Tobias is told to go find another jew to go with him on the trip, because it is dangerous to travel alone, he goes to the market place and hires Raphael who is disgused as a worker. On the trip a fish tries to bite Tobias' foot and Raphael tells him to keep the fish and use the organs for medicine, latter Raphael tells him to stop and stay with Sarah's family because they are like cousins or something, well He marries Sarah and he burns the fish organs and the smoke bothers the demon, then Raphael chains the demon under the nile river. Tobias comes home with the gold his father wanted him to get, a new wife, and a great dowery from his father-in-law, then Raphael tells Tobias to use the gall of the fish to cure his fathers blindness

 

[DD2008]

My personal concern about Tobit is this:

Tobit 5:3-12

[3] Then Tobit gave him the receipt, and said to him, "Find a man to go with you and I will pay him wages as long as I live; and go and get the money."
[4] So he went to look for a man; and he found Raphael, who was an angel,
[5] but Tobias did not know it. Tobias said to him, "Can you go with me to Rages in Media? Are you acquainted with that region?"
[6] The angel replied, "I will go with you; I am familiar with the way, and I have stayed with our brother Gabael."
[7] Then Tobias said to him, "Wait for me, and I shall tell my father."
[8] And he said to him, "Go, and do not delay." So he went in and said to his father, "I have found some one to go with me." He said, "Call him to me, so that I may learn to what tribe he belongs, and whether he is a reliable man to go with you."
[9]
So Tobias invited him in; he entered and they greeted each other.

[10] Then Tobit said to him, "My brother, to what tribe and family do you belong? Tell me. "
[11] But he answered, "Are you looking for a tribe and a family or for a man whom you will pay to go with your son?" And Tobit said to him, "I should like to know, my brother, your people and your name."
[12] He replied, "I am Azarias the son of the great Ananias, one of your relatives."


Isn't this against the commandment thou shalt not lie? Done by an Arch Angel, no less? I have always wondered about this situation and haven't really heard a good answer for it yet. What does this mean? It gives me pause.

Here is what the Haydock Commentary says:

Ver. 18. But lest. Greek Comp., "and Tobit said, brother, I wish to know thy race and thy name. But he replied, I am of the race of Azarias, and of Ananias, who is also thy brother." Whitaker would have this to be a lie. (Haydock) --- But the apparitions of angels are not to be examined by the ordinary rules of life. They take the name of God without scruple, as they acted in his name, Genesis xxxi. 11. (Calmet; Menochius; Tirinus) --- Azarias. The angel took the form of Azarias; and therefore might call himself by the name of the man whom he personated. Azarias, in Hebrew, signifies the help of God; and Ananias, the grace of God. (Challoner) --- Tobias had not inquired whether he was a man or an angel, as Houbigant answers the objection of Prideaux. (Haydock) --- The "help and medicine of God" nearly correspond. (Worthington)

 

[Rhamiel]

I remember reading the book of Tobit. There is usually an introduction before each book. If recall the introduction correctly it said it was a fictional Jewish tale but the message & morals based on truth.

why are there fictional books in the Bible?
does this mean that Raphael is not a real angel?

 

[Michie]

I'm not sure. Would it matter?

All I know is not everything in the Bible is to be taken literally but the morals & messages are. There are lots of allergories in the Bible. Its a matter of deciphering what is literal & what is a moral story to uplift the people during times of trouble. Everything has to be taken in context, it's intent & the time & culture in which it was written. Tobit really does not hold much weight with me as Isaiah or Numbers. Its is a fanciful tale based on morals.

You should read the introductions before delving into reading each Biblical book. It really helps.

 

[Rhamiel]

You should read the introductions before delving into reading each Biblical book. It really helps.

I did, I thought the person who wrote the introduction was wrong

 

[DD2008]

why are there fictional books in the Bible?
does this mean that Raphael is not a real angel?

Personally, I don't think it is fiction.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Historians also say that a lot of the Old Testament shows historical errors (the flood, etc).

I just try to have simple faith. It doesn't matter much to me what the scholars say, lol. Even if these stories are symbolic, it doesn't mean that it's a sin to take them literally. Just make sure that you keep the spiritual meaning...

I do believe that the angel Raphael is real, btw.

The Church has ALWAYS considered these books to be Scripture. (Luther took them out)

 

[Michie]

Rhamiel & DD2008-

Well I don't think either belief is going to send anyone to Hell.


It's in Scripture for a reason. It's all part of our Salvation history.

It's called Faith for a reason.

 

[DD2008]

Rhamiel & DD2008-

Well I don't think either belief is going to send anyone to Hell.


It's in Scripture for a reason. It's all part of our Salvation history.

It's called Faith for a reason.

That's true.

I think the book of Tobit is about an actual event. The geographical errors could be simply because the author wasn't a cartographer.

So, I don't think it's fiction.

It has some very interesting situations in it. Well worth a spot in the canon.

 

[Gwendolyn]

I remember reading the book of Tobit. There is usually an introduction before each book. If recall the introduction correctly it said it was a fictional Jewish tale but the message & morals based on truth.

Exactly. Same with Judith. What does it matter if it is a fictional tale or not? Things are Scripture because there is some divine truth that is revealed through them, not because they literally happened exactly as they were written down. Rhamiel, are you equally jarred by the inconsistencies between the Gospels? - for example, during the Easter morning narrative, when one Gospel says Mary Magdalene went to the tomb with two other women, another one says that she went alone, and another one says she went with one other woman. I don't necessarily see that as problematic, because the point is that Christ appeared to Mary first, and she went to tell the others.

Have you ever had the chance to study the scriptures academically, through college or something similar? It's a pretty exciting experience. I began my scripture studies feeling really uncomfortable with the Old Testament, unsure of what to make of a God who was apparently so bloodthirsty and ruthless. But then I realised that the point wasn't exactly what happened, but why. Now, that shifts in the New Testament - precisely what happened, ie Jesus becoming man and dying to atone for our sins, is certainly of more importance in that context. But the why is even more profound, too.

 

[Michie]

Remember- As Paul said: We all see through a mirror darkly.

There are some things we will not know for sure till we get to Heaven. Our faith is what sustains us. So I don't think Tobit or Raphael being real are anything to fret about.



Our faith is in Jesus.

 

[DD2008]

Remember- As Paul said: We all see through a mirror darkly.



Our faith is in Jesus.

 

[Rhamiel]

Gwendolyn

Rhamiel, are you equally jarred by the inconsistencies between the Gospels? - for example, during the Easter morning narrative, when one Gospel says Mary Magdalene went to the tomb with two other women, another one says that she went alone, and another one says she went with one other woman.

no, but there is a differance between people remembering how the events happening differantly and a story not being real