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Testimony on today's "revivals" from former Vineyard pastor, Tom Stipe

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Questioning Christian

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It had never occurred to me that I could be involved with anything spiritually destructive. Yet when I reached the lowest spiritual level in my pastoral ministry, that is exactly what had happened. How could I have let things go so far? From my perspective, serving on the board of directors of the Association of Vineyard Churches (AVC) had always been a privilege. My wife and I developed close friendships with the other leaders'. Together we travelled to numerous countries, planted churches, and shared a vision for ministry. Led by a respected national leader, we considered ourselves elders of what was rapidly becoming a new denomination. We maintained a unified sense of mission and purpose as we pursued what we believed God was leading us to do.

One week, during a leadership conference in the mid- western part of the United States, several of us were invited to a private meeting. We were to be introduced to the "prophets" who were slated to have a major impact on the future of our movement. Since we were already enthusiastic about the use of spiritual gifts to enhance contemporary church life, our curiosity spurred us to accept the invitation to this landmark meeting. We entered the room, settled into our seats, and waited to see what the Lord had in store for us.

The prophets began to inform us that in the last days, the Lord was restoring the fivefold ministry of apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists to the church. We were challenged to accept the arrival of apostles and prophets because today's church already had plenty of teaching, pastoring, and evangelising. The arrival of the prophets and apostles would lead to the world's last and greatest revival. The prophets revealed that we had been chosen as the people and the movement that would lead Christians into this final display of power in the last days. We were told that one such prophet had been commissioned by God to find the apostolic leadership and apostolic ministry that, linked with the prophetic, would provide the basis for this new surge of endtime anointing. God had revealed to the "prophet" that he and our Association of Vineyard Churches were the chosen ones.

It all sounded downright intoxicating. After struggling with the daily duties of ministry and our fears of inadequacy, this was exactly what we wanted to hear. Being told that our struggles and sacrifices had made us special in God's eyes was a comfort in itself. We clung to the promise that spectacular things would follow the inauguration of this new move of God. We listened attentively to the flattery of our new friends, the prophets. Our scepticism barely peaked above the surface of our consciousness. It disappeared entirely later in the meeting when one of the prophets singled us out and proceeded to reveal, in detail, the secrets of our lives. Now they really had our attention. How could they not be from God? One after another, these accurate "words from the Lord" seemed to be the perfect validation for everything they were proposing. We became completely convinced of the validity of this prophetic anointing. How else could we explain their ability to "see into" our childhoods and personal histories through their prophetic gifting.?

We returned to our local churches with our minds wide open to this new phase in the growth of our movement. During the months that followed, many of us received a plethora of "personal prophecies" predicting our future roles, positions, and successes in God's new movement. There were words of prophecy for our ministries, for their locations and growth, prophecies about the great "restoration" to come and our important part in it. "Seers" would direct people regularly to their 'land of anointing." The recipients of such advice would immediately pack up. and go in faith, confident that the predictions of ministry success would come true. The prophets began telephoning pastors with words straight from God directing staff changes and adjustments in church policy and practice. They anointed individuals to healing ministries and apostolic appointments. Then, instead of waiting for the prophets to call, the pastors began calling the prophets for predictions, instruction, and advice. Ministry musicians and lay people were promised star status if they would remain faithful to the prophetic blueprint unfolded before our movement.

Nevertheless, some of the leaders began to voice concerns and uneasiness. They had seen people uproot their families and travel great distances to the "land of their anointing," fail, and then blame God. Associate pastors and other leaders were wrongly dismissed, indicted, and convicted by nothing more than a dream or prophecy that accused them of some spiritual crime. "Fortune cookie" faith soon became more popular than following God's clear voice in Scripture. Some pastors began raising concerns in board meetings. Even though we were uneasy, we nervously agreed that spiritual gifts don't always operate in human beings in a perfect manner. We thought we could solve the problem by applying one of the movement's most endearing philosophies: "Don't trim the bush until it's had a chance to grow," which means "Let's wait and see what comes of this." We put away our hedge trimmers, and the prophets continued to operate with impunity. After only a couple of years, the prophets seemed to be speaking to just about everyone on just about everything. Hundreds of Vineyard members received the "gift" of prophecy and began plying their trade among both leaders and parishioners.

People began carrying around little notebooks filled with predictions that had been delivered to them by prophets and seers. They flocked to the prophecy conferences that had begun to spring up everywhere. The notebook crowd would rush forward in hope of being selected to receive more prophecies to add to their prophetic diaries. Those identified with healing ministries were holding seminars on formulas and methods for healing prayer, such as finding "hot spots" on the body. Interpreting the meaning of physical sensations or "jolts" in the bodies of those who were prayed over became a necessary part of the healers' "training".

Dreams and their interpretation soon moved to centre stage as prophecy conferences taught devotees to keep a pencil and notebook on their nightstands to write down each dream as it occurred. These were later interpreted for God's message. People lived on the edges of their seats, waiting for the grandiose promises of prophecies to come true. Most waited in vain. Not long after 'prophecy du jour' became the primary source of direction, a trail of devastated believers began to line up outside our pastoral counselling offices. Young people promised teen success and stardom through prophecy were left picking up the pieces of their shattered hopes because God had apparently gone back on His promises. Leaders were deluged by angry church members who had received prophecies about the great ministries they would have but had been frustrated by local church leaders who failed to recognise and "facilitate" their "new anointing.'

After a steady diet of the prophetic, some people were rapidly becoming biblically illiterate, choosing a 'dial-a-prophet" style of Christian living rather than studying God's Word. Many were left to continually live from one prophetic 'fix" to the next, their hope always in danger of failing because God's voice was so specific in pronouncement, yet so elusive in fulfilment. Possessing a prophet's phone number was like having a store- house of treasured guidance. Little clutched notebooks replaced Bibles as the preferred reading material during church services. Some began to fake the shaking and eye fluttering symptoms they had been told were signs of the Holy Spirit coming upon them. They hoped the ministry team would recognise the signs of God and rush to their sides, lifting their hands and praying, 'More, Lord!"


Shaking, laughing, weeping, and eye twitching always ensured that the parishioner would attract the immediate attention of the leaders and their peers. One conference speaker, addressing 8,000 people, discouraged the use of reference books, commentaries, and language tools for sermon preparation. Rather, the pastors were exhorted to determine their Sunday messages through listening for prophecies during long walks with the Lord. Something was dangerously wrong in the movement. One of my own church board members refused to make any decision until his hands got "hot," indicating that his choice was wise. Disturbing symptoms were definitely beginning to show up in my own fellowship.

In my region of denominational jurisdiction, churches began to shrink because evangelism had been replaced by mysticism. People began to complain that church attendance would drop markedly during holiday periods because parishioners were apparently embarrassed to bring their out-of-town relatives to visit such a strange environment. Something bad was happening to the church we had planted fifteen years earlier, and I was beginning to realise that it was my fault. The 'bush" was clearly growing out of control. I had reached the lowest point in my ministry, and I was staring at failure.


One of my earliest pastoral mentors had taught, "When you're not sure what God is saying, go back to what God has already said.' The Bible! What a concept! I had grown weary of studying past revivals, movements, and histories of the church, vainly trying to find justification for what was happening in my own church. It seemed that as a pastor, I had given up what I knew for sure in exchange for what I could never know for sure. It was time to search the Word and get back to basics.

After years of pastoral training, teaching, and preaching, I knew that the bizarre changes in the fabric of our church needed biblical evaluation and correction if our flock was to survive. I was supposed to be the shepherd, but I had become a follower. My pasture was in danger of turning into a dustbowl. Most pastors I know have bouts with insecurity, performance anxiety, and periods when they are unsure that they have made the right ministry decisions. While most might think these bouts of emotional insecurity are rare, they happen every week of the year, between Sundays. One of a pastor's greatest fears should be that he or she has not been diligent to keep the wolves out of the sheepfold. The most effective entry point into the church for any "new" teaching is through the pastor.

I remember well the first time I stepped aside and allowed false teaching in my church. I was told that we had 'quenched the Holy Spirit long enough" and that it was 'now time to give the church back to the Holy Spirit." I was told that the penance for the ecclesiastical felony of "quenching the Spirit" was to include an "anything goes" time during every meeting. Order would be set aside, and chaos was to be invited with prayers like, "Come, Holy Spirit!" This command to Deity was typically followed by a long period of waiting to see what the Spirit would do.

A mounting sense of anticipation would grow as we waited for the 'manifestations' to appear. If there was any anxiety, it was dispelled by a liberal application of Matthew 7:9-11: 'Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you, then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?'

All of this seemed very comforting at the time, but I always wondered how far the magic "Satan Shield" extended- 100 yards of perimeter? Two feet? Was there a time limit, say midnight, for example, before Satan's minions could again return to their normal, attacks? How long did the bread and fish "kryptonite' ward off psychic duplication of God's "voice"? Some of us were suckers for this kind of manipulation. My feelings of guilt were conjured up by suggestions that I had exerted too much human leadership and control in the church. All of my peers were confessing their sin of control and letting go, so I followed suit.

Despite the fact that Scripture nowhere advocates this misinterpretation of Matthew chapter seven, and in fact commands order in the church (I Cor. 14:17-19), chaos reigned in my church because I had come to believe I needed to forfeit my duty to maintain order. I had almost lost my commitment to presenting a clear gospel message to visiting nonbelievers and instead allowed subjectivity to reign over reasoning from the Scriptures. I needed to repent and become a true shepherd again.

As my wife and I prepared to attend what would be our last Vineyard board of directors meeting, we rehearsed what we would say: how we needed to eliminate the swirl of subjectivity that had entered our church; how we needed to get back to the basics of Christian evangelism and discipleship; how we needed to restore Bible study to our members' daily lives. We didn't want to cause trouble. We had formed close friendships with these people, loved them, and considered them an important part of our lives. But we could no longer remain silent concerning the truth.

During the series of meetings, various leadership concerns were raised about the effect "prophetic" influences were having on the core of our theology. Some of the leaders who dared to reveal their misgivings were quickly warned that the "prophet," the "one whose words never fall to the ground,' had supernaturally heard our conversations and would report them to the national leader for disciplinary action. Since 'Big Brother" was watching us, we were forbidden to discuss -these issues with other board members.

.
 

Questioning Christian

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Other directors began to share "words" that God had spoken to them for the direction of our movement. One director claimed God had told him that the pure church was the cell church, and that we should abandon public Bible teaching and evangelism altogether for small group meetings. Some heralded the position that real evangelism takes place through "signs and wonders,' when people are attracted to the Kingdom of God through 'demonstrations" of power. Some scorned the idea of evangelistic crusades. Some supported the ministry of the prophets. Others presented evidence regarding the trickery and manipulation often used by the prophets in their meetings.

Finally, after a week's worth of sometimes heated discussion, prayer, and meetings, it was all summed up by the dream someone shared the last night. The dream, related as though it were from God Himself, instructed us to do nothing, to make no decisions, but to 'wait and see." Frustrated, I returned to my own church in Denver. I had just witnessed close friends, co-labourers in Christ, legitimate Christian leaders being 'tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine." Our corporate ministry seemed like a laboratory test gone awry. The adoption of subjectivity as the primary source of guidance had reduced us to complete ineptitude as pastors and leaders.

What had happened? Why were these Christian men and women "hearing" so many contradictory messages from God? I knew without a shadow of doubt that it was time to begin the process of getting the church God had given me to pastor back to basics. At that moment, truth became more important than relationships. My wife and I spoke with our remaining congregation. We knew that if they would commit to going back to the basics of Christian practice with us, the Word of God guaranteed that the Lord would work more powerfully and more legitimately in our lives than ever before. The congregation agreed.

I went back to teaching the Bible in the most basic fashion I could, verse by verse. When I first announced that we were going to go through the Gospel 'of John for the better part of the year, the response of some was, 'Why the Book of John? I read that when I was a baby Christian.' Others were horrified that I would discourage shaking and twitching "in the Spirit." What had been a church of 4,400 shrank as people left to join the 'holy laughter" movement. My hate mail grew to enormous proportions. Even the movement's leader publicly denounced me, predicting that God would kill me for my 'sin."

God was true to His word in the midst of the storm that our congregation endured during what we later called 'the year of slander.' Within a few months, several hundred people came to a saving knowledge of Christ. Baptisms increased simply because there were new converts to baptise. People's lives were radically changing, and the church was becoming healthy again. Attendance increased almost overnight. Within a year, we added a third service to our Sunday schedule. Currently our congregation is moving past 6,000, and our struggles are with ordinary, normal issues of Christian life. All of this because of the basics. It's really that simple (see Heb. 4:12-13; 2 Kings 22:8-13; Jer. 15:16).

Books like Counterfeit Revival must be written and published. You see, in the day of the apostle Paul, the false prophets, heretics, and legalists resisting his ministry needed to go to considerable effort to inject the opiate of false doctrine into the church. Long travel by horseback or on foot, the heat, dust, months away from home, painfully slow methods of copying documents, all contributed to making the spread of false doe- trine difficult. Not so today-the wonders of the modern world make the spread of false doctrine deceptively thorough and quick. The urgency of biblical correction is never more pressing than now.

Back in 1517, a huge contingent of the 'church had fallen to the ruse of a carnal monk named Johann Tetzel. He conned the believers of his day into purchasing indulgences to guarantee escape from purgatory. An outraged Martin Luther nailed his ninety-five theses of dispute on the Wittenberg door, challenging the brokerage of salvation through the exploitation of people's spiritual insecurities and illiteracy. Perhaps we have come again to such a dark age with the insurgence of false revivalism.

I know. I was there and back, thank God! Only as the church experiences true reformation will it experience true revival
 
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AudioArtist

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Well, it's a shame what occured here and I'm glad you're back on track.

Counterfeit Revival takes things far too far, however. It paints all these experiences with the same horrible brush. I have happened to experience God, and my eyes did flutter. Just because there is fake nonsense going on, doesn't mean that lots of experiences aren't genuine...There is nothing wrong with waiting for the Holy Spirit to minister to people, imho. As long as the focus has been set on Christ.

We have to be routed in the Bible and also let the Holy Spirit do His stuff, I believe. Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you "quench" either side of things, you can either go into false prophecies and people faking experiences to get attention and un-true teachings, or on the flip side you have a religious, perhaps spiritually dead Church that does not operate in the gifts that God has so wonderfully given us. :)

I have seen people call out and even groan while being ministered to by God, and while it looks strange on the outside, the changes taking place in their heart are often wonderful. Essentially, during times like that, God is releasing people from past hurts and other disturbances. Perhaps there are "fakers" out there, but I have never personally come across one. I myself have recently experienced God's presence, and it restored my faith and cleaned up a lot of muck...I'm the last person to fake an experience or to react emmotionally a circumstance, trust me. ;)
 
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Jesusong

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I apreciate the testimony. Too often people embrace one aspect of Christian living and the expence of another. They either hold to the Bible and shun the manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12, & 14), or they run to & fro at all kinds of manifestations without first consulting the Scriptures as a check & balance.

Such books as "Christianity in Crisis," and "Counterfiet Revival," have been helpful in exposing the excesses, and downright false teachings that have been going on, but like all books, it has its limitations, and biases.
 
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JimB

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QC,

I am probably the only poster in this forum who will take the time to read this long note, much less comment on it and I have done so only because I am a Vineyard pastor myself and, so, the note is of particular interest to me. Although I am aware of Stipe’s departure from the Vineyard, I have never been clear as to his real reasons - although I have read his stated ones – IOW, I would like to hear the “rest of the story”.

Can you document and date this alleged letter from Stipe? It sounds like ancient history to me. Furthermore, you failed to mention that Stipe is now a colleague of Hammering Hank Hanegraaf whose book, Counterfeit Revival (to which Stipe was a contributor), has to be one of the most ill-researched books ever, rivaled only by Hanegraaf’s other book Christianity in Crisis and John MacArthur’s Charismatic Chaos. (But I will leave that for another thread.)

I came into the Vineyard in 2001. Therefore, I am post-Stipe; post-Wimber; post-Toronto; post-Kansas City Prophets – all for which I thank God I had the opportunity to miss out on!! And I will say that the “Vineyard” portrayed by Stipe in the above letter does not at all resemble the Vineyard I am a part of today. Most of what he objects to in the letter I have never witnessed - and I attend every conference and am personally friends with the national director whose church is the parent church of our Vineyard plant. If the “Vineyard” portrayed in the letter existed, I would bail out, too. In fact, I am in sympathy with much Stipes’ stated views in the above letter regarding the purpose of the church and I probably conduct my church much as he does his (although on a much, much smaller scale ;) ).

My guess is that Stipe should have exercised more patience. The “Vineyard” he objected to, if it ever really existed, was fading away and the Vineyard he envisioned was in the making.

That is why I believe there is more to the story as to why Stipe left the Vineyard than was stated in his letter. ‘Stated’ reasons are seldom the ‘real’ reasons for peoples’ actions. Stated reasons are only to cover less-palatable real reaons.

BTW, what is the purpose of posting this ancient history in this forum?

~Jim
 
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AudioArtist

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Jim M, I did read the entire OP. ;)

I have also read bits of Counterfeit Revival, but I decided to leave it alone because it was so biased and it just trashed up my faith. I am not saying that conterfeit experiences do not occur, but just because they do, doesn't mean we have to get all paranoid and go to the lengths that books like that do.
 
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Jesusong

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I have no problem reading books that go, or are biased against what I currently believe or accept. I look at it as a challenge on what do I believe and why do I believe it. I've done it on the spiritual gifts, rapture, OSAS, trinity/oneness, etc. It gets me to really think hard, and see the side of issues that I would not be noticing because of who I am.
 
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AudioArtist

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Jesusong said:
I have no problem reading books that go, or are biased against what I currently believe or accept. I look at it as a challenge on what do I believe and why do I believe it. I've done it on the spiritual gifts, rapture, OSAS, trinity/oneness, etc. It gets me to really think hard, and see the side of issues that I would not be noticing because of who I am.

Yes, true. But you are a mature Christian and I am a growing Christian. I've learned to avoid certain articles and books that will only make me stumble. :)
 
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Jesusong

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There have been times that I have read things that are critical to what I accept, or are introducing "new things" into my way of thinking that send me for a loop. Some things take months or even years to work out. I will discuss it with my pastor, with my brothers & sister in Christ, and get their take on it to help me understand. But this is something that I've learned very early in my Christian walk, That the Bible is true, no matter what others may say about it. And it tells me that Jesus sacrificed His life so that I can live. And through the power of His resurrection, I can rest assure that I will make it to the end, whenever or wherever that will be. If all I have is the Bible, then that's all I need.
 
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New_Wineskin

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Thanks , for posting this , QC !! :)

Questioning Christian said:
It had never occurred to me that I could be involved with anything spiritually destructive.
.

Yeah . That's the problem . People are so emersed in the idea of hearing the Lord through others instead of hearing Him for themselves , they can still be surprised when they are led off of a cliff . It doesn't matter how many times they read about leaders ( "apostles" , "prophets" , "evangelists" , "pastors" , *OR* "teachers" ) being accepted as the very oracle of the Lord and using their role for ever greater control over others . People still allow themselves under other humans not even giving thought to the slightest of posibilities that *they* could fall into the same trap .

The writer states that "it had never occurred to" them . This person was supposedly a "leader" . This leader was so shell-shocked that they went back to year-old christian mode by going "verse" by "verse" through one of the basic writings so that nothing new would be ventured . And , they forced people to go through this with them instead of stepping down to get their bearings . I pity any of the mature Christians going through that year as their leader stuck to children's Sunday School methods . At least , it gave them a chance to read the Scriptures for themselves and rely on the Lord for teachings . That is - if they were not convinced that such teachings came only from the leaders .

Perhaps , some good came from it .
 
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NewSong

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If only I had gone to Page 2, before I started doing my own research because I came up with exactly an agenda as stated above. I surmised as much as I was reading but my research was turning up some things that was alluding to it. Thanks for the url Jim M because that is one that I had not turned up yet. I have turned up a couple of others that was leading me to believe agenda was involved.

I also question the OP motives, seems like trouble to me.

NewSong
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Jim M said:
The OP was taken from the Foreward to Hank Hanegraaf’s book, Counterfeit Revival. The book has its agenda.

‘Nuff said.

~Jim



Ref. http://www.e-n.org.uk/1997-10/48-Counterfeit-Revival.htm



Thanks Jim...
And thanks for the excerpt QC.

Why do people go to such extremes when they come to odds with others? Why is it all or nothing?
Just eat the hay and leave the sticks.
 
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