Taking Questions on Embedded Age Creation

[Kylie]

Do you know what a framework narrative is?

Yes I do. And there's nothing in either Gen 1 or 2 to suggest that it was being used.

If you read either one by itself, you will never get the idea that there was a framing narrative. The only reason you are invoking it seems to be because that's the only way you can get the two different stories to work. I don't buy your handwavium for a second.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes I do. And there's nothing in either Gen 1 or 2 to suggest that it was being used.

If you read either one by itself, you will never get the idea that there was a framing narrative. The only reason you are invoking it seems to be because that's the only way you can get the two different stories to work. I don't buy your handwavium for a second.

I think a 7 day creation serves very well as an ancient framing convention for a Hebrew narrative. 7 was a popular number.

But don't take my word for it.

Now, back to prayers.

 

[Kylie]

They all have arguments, sure. But what I understood you to be saying was that they all had some sort of historical event to point to.

All relikgions point to some real world event as evidence that they are the One True Faith (tm).

Nope, the literal meaning is still what's important. But the literal meaning includes issues of genre and the like that require critical approaches. But it's not an either/or proposition.

A literal interpretation of the Bible leads to countless contradictions.

It does, you just don't understand it. It's a question of scholarship.

Sure it does.

It's never been the critical factor to my argument, the precise dating isn't as important as the centrality alongside no naturalistic account.

No naturalistic account? I gave you an explanation for it that requires no supernatural events at all.

I accept it as the most reasonable explanation, though my faith depends far more on personal experience than on argumentation.

Personal experience is nowhere close to a valid way to find truth.

Though certainly if the resurrection weren't true my faith would be built on unstable foundations. But why should I suspect it's not true?

So you're closed minded?

Again with an attack on motives? Let that ad hominem go.

It's not an ad hominem if it relates to the issue being discussed.

I didn't, but I understand that memory can be extremely faulty. Yet we must rely on it if we are going to do historical research.

Oh, look at that. I give you resources to support my position and you don't even bother looking at them.

Seems very clear that you are not interested in actually having a discussion about this, doesn't it?

Tell me: why should I bother talking with you if you aren't even going to read the sources I provide?

You display them quite obviously.

And what part of that gives you the right to disagree with me about my own personal beliefs?

Nope, no extraordinary claims. Just claims and evidence.

So a God come to earth in Human form resurrecting from the dead is not extraordinary to you?

That's your subjective judgment, but who's the judge of when a claim is extraordinary and when it's not? What's the objective criteria? All you're expressing is personal incredulity, which is not a valid argument.

Well, let's judge the extraordinariness of a thing by comparing it to how often it (or a similar thing) happens in the real world, shall we?

The claim "I have slept within the last 24 hours" is a very ordinary claim, since most people in the world have slept within that timeframe. I'm sure you have, after all. So very ordinary evidence is sufficient to show that it's very likely that I also have slept within the last 24 hours. If my husband came and posted, "Yes, I can confirm that Kylie was asleep for 6 hours and woke up about 6 and a half hours ago," that should be enough, right?

But would you accept the same evidence if he said that I magically turned into a panda that danced in the front yard for the amusement of my neighbours?

I doubt it.

You're here arguing for a reason..but go on pretending that you're just an unbiased "skeptic"

Look at you claiming you know more about my beliefs than I do.

The issue is your definition of "valid" leads to a circular argument. If all you will accept is scientific evidence, then all you will get is scientific "facts"...but as my friend @2PhiloVoid hinted at there is an epistemic issue with gettier problems that must be discussed when identifying what valid evidence is.

Anything that is testable.

If you can examine it and get a certain result, and I can examine it and get the same result, then I will accept it as valid.

But if you and I examine it and get different results, then why should I accept it as evidence of anything?

Your circular arguments are your problem. My question is, if you're simply going to refuse to consider anything that conforms to your idea of "evidence" why are you in this discussion at all? Who are you trying to convince?

Why do you insist on using evidence that CAN'T be verified?

That wasn't the question.

I think it was.

You said, "No, but he met Peter and James and the disciples and confirmed what he was taught about Jesus. "

I showed how Paul could have been aware of those things already and could have had a vision in which he imagined Jesus telling him those things he already knew.

This doesn't deserve a response.

Why not?

You claimed that Peter and James confirmed his vision. They couldn't even verify that he HAD a vision. For all they knew, he was just saying he did!

Not at all, but you go off. You want to overextend the warrant of inductive reasoning, which can never prove an absolute, and declare an absolute without any sort of investigation. Then you use that absolute to justify not looking for or considering what evidence exists. Your reasoning is nothing but a circular argument that makes it impossible for you to consider the evidence that does exist unbiasedly. if you believe it flatly impossible, why pretend to be amenable to evidence? And if you're not amenable to evidence, why enter the conversation? Why not just say "well, it's impossible and nothing will ever change my mind"?

You seem to think that if something is not an absolute then there is a 50/50 chance of it being right.

I can't prove there are no aliens in my kitchen right now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely unlikely that there are aliens there.

But you seem to think that since we can't prove that no one comes back from the dead, that it's quite plausible that Jesus did.

 

[AV1611VET]

So the law didn't apply in Judah's time (Old Testament). And it didn't apply in the New Testament because Jesus died for us.

Guess you're just picking and choosing when you want things to be valid or not, huh?

Do you understand dispensation theology?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes I do.

Good enough to recognize it, when you see it?

 

[AV1611VET]

A literal interpretation of the Bible leads to countless contradictions.

Do you know what a paradox is?

If so, do you know the difference between a contradiction and a paradox?

 

[Kylie]

Do you understand dispensation theology?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So you can just make up whatever you want.

Good enough to recognize it, when you see it?

Yup.

Please, quote the specific Bible passage that establishes the framework narrative in Genesis.

Do you know what a paradox is?

If so, do you know the difference between a contradiction and a paradox?

Yes. A contradiction is two statements where one or the other can be true, but not both.

"Kylie lives in Australia." "Kylie lives in the Northern Hemisphere."

Those two statements are contradictory. Either one of them can be true, but they can't both be true.

A paradox is a single statement that contradicts itself.

"This statement is false," is a paradox, because if it is false, it must be false when it says that it is false. But that requires it to be true. And if it's true, then it's true about being false.

Do you need help with any other definitions?

 

[AV1611VET]

So you can just make up whatever you want.

Is that what dispensation theology does?

Please, quote the specific Bible passage that establishes the framework narrative in Genesis.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27a So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Do you need help with any other definitions?

Which one is this?

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[BCP1928]

Is that what dispensation theology does?

Pretty much.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27a So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.



Which one is this?

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

No, that just harmonizes the two stories, It doesn't justify a framework interpretation.

 

[Fervent]

All relikgions point to some real world event as evidence that they are the One True Faith (tm).

That's not what you presented.

A literal interpretation of the Bible leads to countless contradictions.

Interpreting the Bible is a secondary issue, and the contradictions are easily resolved.

Sure it does.

No naturalistic account? I gave you an explanation for it that requires no supernatural events at all.

Personal experience is nowhere close to a valid way to find truth.

So you're closed minded?

It's not an ad hominem if it relates to the issue being discussed.

Oh, look at that. I give you resources to support my position and you don't even bother looking at them.

Seems very clear that you are not interested in actually having a discussion about this, doesn't it?

Tell me: why should I bother talking with you if you aren't even going to read the sources I provide?

And what part of that gives you the right to disagree with me about my own personal beliefs?

So a God come to earth in Human form resurrecting from the dead is not extraordinary to you?

Well, let's judge the extraordinariness of a thing by comparing it to how often it (or a similar thing) happens in the real world, shall we?

The claim "I have slept within the last 24 hours" is a very ordinary claim, since most people in the world have slept within that timeframe. I'm sure you have, after all. So very ordinary evidence is sufficient to show that it's very likely that I also have slept within the last 24 hours. If my husband came and posted, "Yes, I can confirm that Kylie was asleep for 6 hours and woke up about 6 and a half hours ago," that should be enough, right?

But would you accept the same evidence if he said that I magically turned into a panda that danced in the front yard for the amusement of my neighbours?

I doubt it.

Look at you claiming you know more about my beliefs than I do.

Anything that is testable.

If you can examine it and get a certain result, and I can examine it and get the same result, then I will accept it as valid.

But if you and I examine it and get different results, then why should I accept it as evidence of anything?

Why do you insist on using evidence that CAN'T be verified?

I think it was.

You said, "No, but he met Peter and James and the disciples and confirmed what he was taught about Jesus. "

I showed how Paul could have been aware of those things already and could have had a vision in which he imagined Jesus telling him those things he already knew.

Why not?

You claimed that Peter and James confirmed his vision. They couldn't even verify that he HAD a vision. For all they knew, he was just saying he did!

You seem to think that if something is not an absolute then there is a 50/50 chance of it being right.

I can't prove there are no aliens in my kitchen right now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely unlikely that there are aliens there.

But you seem to think that since we can't prove that no one comes back from the dead, that it's quite plausible that Jesus did.

I'm going to bow out at this point, because it's really pointless debating/discussing someone who insists on continuing using fallacies that have been identified, especially when they've made it clear they're content justifying their position with circular reasoning. Ciao.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, that just harmonizes the two stories, It doesn't justify a framework interpretation.

I'm sorry you can't see it.

 

[BCP1928]

I'm sorry you can't see it.

You need to quote a text. I see that it is possible to harmonize the two stories, but I also so no obvious reason for doing so. They stand on their own just fine.

 

[AV1611VET]

You need to quote a text.

Were there giraffes on the Ark?

If you think they were, you need to quote a text.

 

[BCP1928]

Were there giraffes on the Ark?

If you think they were, you need to quote a text.

I'm not making any claims about what the Bible says. You are.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not making any claims about what the Bible says.

Maybe you need to start?

So you can see better how hermeneutics works?

Get out there in the field and lets us know what the Bible says, so you can get challenged.

Iron sharpeneth iron.

 

[BCP1928]

Maybe you need to start?

So you can see better how hermeneutics works?

Get out there in the field and lets us know what the Bible says, so you can get challenged.

Iron sharpeneth iron.

I don't need to make any claims apout what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't prove anything. It was given to us for our instruction, as Paul tells us. Trying to use it as proof of our faith is blasphemous.

 

[AV1611VET]

Trying to use it as proof of our faith is blasphemous.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[BCP1928]

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So it does. My faith came from hearing the word of God spoken by a person I trusted and whose life reflected the truth of the words he spoke. That is the only way their truth can be demonstrated. The Bible is just lecture notes. By itself it doesn't prove anything.

 

[AV1611VET]

My faith came from hearing the word of God spoken by a person I trusted and whose life reflected the truth of the words he spoke.

Shoka Asahara?

 

[dlamberth]

Shoka Asahara?

Your making a bad joke out of a really important spiritual truth of a person in Christ where BCP wrote "whose life reflected the truth of the words he spoke".