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No one can prove any history over a few thousand years.In the case of the Earth, it shows us a history that is many billions of years in age. True, someday it will all be gone. But for today, it 's here for us to walk on and understand.
How convenient for you. Even if it doesn't make sense, it still somehow supports your interpretation.Correct.
Those "violations of logic" are called "miracles."
Which was a hypothetical which you can't show applies to the real world.In this thread actually we started with a rock that was 2 days old with men who had already decided it was older
And there we go with the circular reasoning again.If we conclude that God is true, we already found the truth
And you don't get to claim that there's more to reality unless you can provide testable evidence for it.The real world is heaven. This temporal world is also real. But you don't get to limit reality to this present world. You take part of the equation, just the natural part, and form conclusions with that.
And that stubbing of your toe would be the demonstration.Who needs to demonstrate that it exists? We live in it. If you stub your toe you know it exists. But we also know that God exists and angels and spirits. That has been demonstrated to mankind since time immemorial. WE can say science does not even know that much though(or not)
No it didn't.Science predetermined that only the natural tells us how man and the universe got here.
You don't get it.Great, the evidence seems to be universal. We would not expect all men to agree about what they don't know anything about, of course. But most know that there is more than the natural.
What are you talking about? The claims of science CAN be tested. That's the foundation of science.Chiefly the view of science that the naturalonlydunnit
You keep claiming there is evidence, yet you are utterly incapable of providing any of this evidence.Why should we start with the assumption that there is nothing supernatural when there's literally zero verifiable evidence for the claim? The world abounds in evidence that there is more. Whether you accept that into your little naturalonly clique or not doesn't change anything
I don't think you understand what personal revelation actually means.The bible is not personal revelation. Your personal revelation that nothing but the natural exists is not evidence
Prove it.The book actually came about after millennia of experiences and contact with God. Then they made it into a book.
We have testable evidence that the natural exists.Your absolute lack of evidence for JUST the natural is not logic, truth, or valid.
Yeah, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence for the supernatural.Using the word reality does not make a bogus, natural only patchwork of hunches and guesses of the naturalonlists 'knowledge' or reality.
That doesn't even make any sense.Or not
I never claimed there is no such thing as the supernatural, I said there is insufficient reason to think it exists.We all understand the principle of insisting there is nothing beyond the natural and cooking up universe origins based on that.
Right, so I was right that many religions include claims, "We are right, but there will be many who don't share our belief."I agree, that is four books, not including the bible! I suppose you could add some gangs that say that anyone who leaves must die. Or nations that say that any state that tries to succeed must not be allowed...etc
No, if a scientist can present testable evidence for their claims, and that evidence withstands scrutiny, then it will be accepted.Maybe even science, and how they treat scientists that try to include more than the natural!
So? So it means absolutely nothing when people predict that the "end times" will be marked by events that are constantly happening.I suppose some claimed they were the opposite sex or cats as well. So?
You have absolutely no idea how science works, and your little strawman arguments only serve to make your position look ridiculous.Verified by itself. Comparing itself with itself. Incestuous little philosophy. God is verified in our lives and history and fulfilled prophesy etc. Not in some stuffy lab where they fiddle around with nothing more than their natural only ideas and things.
Meaningless little soundbite.They can bet on whatever horse they like. When they try to use their little natural only mind games to replace God and creation, all bets are off.
There we go, that's what personal revelation is. You seemed confused about it before.I was shown more. Speak for yourself.
To anyone.To who? Those who demand to operate only in it?
Prove it. Prove the existence of even one kind of spirit.No, there are a lot of spirits, good and bad. So naturally people the world over will not be in sync with all that. But most know there is spirits of some sort.
You have no understanding of understanding.Using the word understanding does not mean your natural only philosophy has any.
See? This is what I mean when I say you lack understanding.So you claim it admits there is supernatural, but just admits it is too small and dumb to be able to prove it? I disagree. I think they do not admit anything exists out of their airtight, dark little box.
If they have actually experienced the supernatural, their experiences should all agree. Why would the supernatural be so different for different people? We don't see that with things that actually exist. It's not like fire is hot for some people, cold for other people. When it comes to things that are real, people's experiences are all the same. That's how we know it's real.Yes it is total victory. They all agree there is more than the natural! Why would we expect them all to arrive at the same guesses as to what it is exactly?
Oh, and here we go with the "science makes weapons, so science is bad, and therefore science is wrong."I have noticed many countries would be happy to get the bomb and other goodies science provides. So? People would want to use whatever is in the world that they need and that makes life a little better etc.
No it's not.It is perfect agreement that there is more. Not what that more is. That is all that is needed for this argument.
Yeah, I'm still waiting for you to provide even the smallest bit of actual evidence for the supernatural.We can know that it is. Not what it is. Science proceeds alone, content with it's choice of being religiously limited to only the natural. This thread deals with how that disqualifies them from any creation discussion.
You can't show it doesn't apply, and since we already had probably millions of miracles recorded, you need to have more than the natural only for your splainin power.Which was a hypothetical which you can't show applies to the real world.
That is already known and always has been. Having some few ignore it to promote their godless philosophies matters not at all. We can say they do not know there is or is not more if we want to be kind and generous to themAnd you don't get to claim that there's more to reality unless you can provide testable evidence for it.
Long as they get to use only the natural. We get it. Too bad for them that can't work and many have grown tired of the scamYou seem incapable of understanding that science doesn't care what the conclusion is.
Exactly, using only the natural to get there is all they care about. Narrow minded.It only cares about how we get there.
A natural only process. Totally irrelevant to God or creation.Science is a PROCESS,
You can say that again!not some body of knowledge.
Yes, the leave God out method of using only the naturalScience is the MEHTHOD we use to investigate reality. If that investigation shows that God exists, then it will be accepted.
Why should they care what you think either way?Why should I think that people claiming that the supernatural is real when they can't agree on what it is?
Not any claims regarding using only the natural to determine what creation was like. They can test some natural process, but cannot claim that is why a rock got there.What are you talking about? The claims of science CAN be tested. That's the foundation of science.
Then we are left with you neither knowing either way or having any ability to know. NiceYou keep claiming there is evidence, yet you are utterly incapable of providing any of this evidence.
Since you brought it up, tell usI don't think you understand what personal revelation actually means.
And no one in their right mind asked if it exists. Obviously the natural exists!We have testable evidence that the natural exists.
The natural is not the supernatural, so what evidence could it have about anything else other than itself?We do NOT have testable evidence the supernatural exists.
It is real. That is not justification for believing anything other than it exists. We all knew that anyhow!Therefore, we are justified in believing the natural is real, and we are not justified in believing the supernatural is real.
Most believe there is more so the 'we' you use seems to be meaningless.Saying there is insufficient reason to believe is real something is NOT the same as saying there is sufficient reason to believe it is not real.
Natural evidence? Well, Thomas saw the holes in Jesus, still not healed, and was told to put his finger in them to remove his doubts. Let me guess, there was no Jesus, no Thomas, no wounds, no room through which Jesus went through the walls, etc etc. Then you ask for proof!? Ha. You want natural man in a lab, that happens to be there when a miracle is happening to him or some such apparently. Then you want natural only lab equipment to be able to see this and know it was a miracle. In other words, you have a close minded made up my mind already approach. Better to just admit you don't know.Yeah, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence for the supernatural.
There is enough reason so that most of the world in all ages including today know it to be so. Therefore you are talking about some obstinate few that demand absurd proof. Jesus didn't come to educate and prove things to the self satisfied who have no real desire to know. He came to heal the sick and feed the hungry hearts that really want to know.I never claimed there is no such thing as the supernatural, I said there is insufficient reason to think it exists.
All they have to be right about is that their family or ancestors or people experienced something that was supernatural. Not the same thing as all others nations or families or peoples. The only agreement that matters here is that they agree there is more than the natural. They do. And having some naturalonlydunniall nerd be able to prove it using their little preferred criteria and conditions really matters not at all. If God cared about doing things only in ways that Scripture rejecting naturalonlists preferred, He would have done that.Right, so I was right that many religions include claims, "We are right, but there will be many who don't share our belief."
In the context of this discussion, the only reason various faiths are mentioned is because they know there is more than the natural. Who cares how special they may think their particular group is?So the argument you tried to use to show the Bible is true can also be applied to them:
No one said their text was true here. Strawman. They know there is more than science can deal with. That does not make them all correct or flawless in whatever they may write.If it is valid, then it does not support your position since it can be used by other religions to show why their religious text is true. If it is invalid, it still does not support your position.
That is like saying if a grasshopper can jump to the moon, the moon is real. Natural only limited scientists can jump no further than the natural.No, if a scientist can present testable evidence for their claims, and that evidence withstands scrutiny, then it will be accepted.
If the special events to happen in the end time constantly happened you might have a pointSo? So it means absolutely nothing when people predict that the "end times" will be marked by events that are constantly happening.
We all know what it works with. The natural!You have absolutely no idea how science works,
No. believe it or not.Prove it. Prove the existence of even one kind of spirit.
1 John 5:20You have no understanding of understanding.
Lie anyone asked them? They could not tell is a ghost was in the room, or an angel, or if a person that was healed was healed by God or much of anything else, if it slapped them upside the head! They would be the last people on earth anyone should ask about the supernaturalScience does not admit that the supernatural exists. It simply says there is no evidence for it, and thus no reason to believe it.
Plenty, but not in your box. It is outside your box. God works outside of the natural and science.Maybe it does exist, maybe it doesn't. There's simply no evidence. This is a fundamental aspect of science which you seem incapable of understanding.
Not at all. There are probably millions of demons. They lie and confuse any way they can. Why would they always inspire people to have the same story about something extra ordinary?If they have actually experienced the supernatural, their experiences should all agree.
Right, but an intelligent observer would probably know they were all on drugsWhen it comes to things that are NOT real, we see that different people have different experiences. If people are given a hallucinogen, then they will hallucinate different things, even if they are sitting next to each other at the time. One person might hallucinate pink elephants dancing the can-can. Another person sitting right next to them might hallucinate a forest of stone pillars growing like trees. They can different experiences because what they are experiencing does not exist in reality.
No. It means that they all had experiences that were not necessarily the same. Why would all people of all faiths and situations have the same experience?Different people having a DIFFERENT experience of a thing means the thing is probably NOT real.
Whose religion? True religion visits the sick and preaches the gospel etc. Warmongers and tyrants claiming to be of God are seen as religious by many who are not so bright.Oh, and here we go with the "science makes weapons, so science is bad, and therefore science is wrong."
If you want to play this game, shall I give you examples of the harm religion has done?
No. All faiths including the true faith know that the supernatural is real. That does not mean that all faiths are wrong about some demonic experience some of them may have had or some miracle etc. Having a third cousin twice removed experiencing a miracle does not mean the whole nation or people are suddenly and forever right about everything else! It means that enough things have happened over time to convince them that there is more than just the naturalBut if you want to play that game, all those different faiths agree that Christianity is wrong. By the same logic, that proves that Christianity is wrong.
Your box is too smallYeah, I'm still waiting for you to provide even the smallest bit of actual evidence for the supernatural.
But that puts you in a logical bind. If you hold that the existence of the supernatural in unfalsifiable, how can you accuse science of falsifying it?You can't show it doesn't apply, and since we already had probably millions of miracles recorded, you need to have more than the natural only for your splainin power.
That is already known and always has been. Having some few ignore it to promote their godless philosophies matters not at all. We can say they do not know there is or is not more if we want to be kind and generous to them
Long as they get to use only the natural. We get it. Too bad for them that can't work and many have grown tired of the scam
Exactly, using only the natural to get there is all they care about. Narrow minded.
A natural only process. Totally irrelevant to God or creation.
You can say that again!
Yes, the leave God out method of using only the natural
Why should they care what you think either way?
Not any claims regarding using only the natural to determine what creation was like. They can test some natural process, but cannot claim that is why a rock got there.
Then we are left with you neither knowing either way or having any ability to know. Nice
Since you brought it up, tell us
And no one in their right mind asked if it exists. Obviously the natural exists!
The natural is not the supernatural, so what evidence could it have about anything else other than itself?
It is real. That is not justification for believing anything other than it exists. We all knew that anyhow!
Most believe there is more so the 'we' you use seems to be meaningless.
Natural evidence? Well, Thomas saw the holes in Jesus, still not healed, and was told to put his finger in them to remove his doubts. Let me guess, there was no Jesus, no Thomas, no wounds, no room through which Jesus went through the walls, etc etc. Then you ask for proof!? Ha. You want natural man in a lab, that happens to be there when a miracle is happening to him or some such apparently. Then you want natural only lab equipment to be able to see this and know it was a miracle. In other words, you have a close minded made up my mind already approach. Better to just admit you don't know.
There is enough reason so that most of the world in all ages including today know it to be so. Therefore you are talking about some obstinate few that demand absurd proof. Jesus didn't come to educate and prove things to the self satisfied who have no real desire to know. He came to heal the sick and feed the hungry hearts that really want to know.
All they have to be right about is that their family or ancestors or people experienced something that was supernatural. Not the same thing as all others nations or families or peoples. The only agreement that matters here is that they agree there is more than the natural. They do. And having some naturalonlydunniall nerd be able to prove it using their little preferred criteria and conditions really matters not at all. If God cared about doing things only in ways that Scripture rejecting naturalonlists preferred, He would have done that.
In the context of this discussion, the only reason various faiths are mentioned is because they know there is more than the natural. Who cares how special they may think their particular group is?
No one said their text was true here. Strawman. They know there is more than science can deal with. That does not make them all correct or flawless in whatever they may write.
That is like saying if a grasshopper can jump to the moon, the moon is real. Natural only limited scientists can jump no further than the natural.
If the special events to happen in the end time constantly happened you might have a point
We all know what it works with. The natural!
No. believe it or not.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life
He has not given that to naturalonldunnit unbelievers. Forgive me if I take what you think is 'understanding' with a grain of salt
Lie anyone asked them? They could not tell is a ghost was in the room, or an angel, or if a person that was healed was healed by God or much of anything else, if it slapped them upside the head! They would be the last people on earth anyone should ask about the supernatural
Plenty, but not in your box. It is outside your box. God works outside of the natural and science.
Not at all. There are probably millions of demons. They lie and confuse any way they can. Why would they always inspire people to have the same story about something extra ordinary?
Right, but an intelligent observer would probably know they were all on drugs
No. It means that they all had experiences that were not necessarily the same. Why would all people of all faiths and situations have the same experience?
Whose religion? True religion visits the sick and preaches the gospel etc. Warmongers and tyrants claiming to be of God are seen as religious by many who are not so bright.
No. All faiths including the true faith know that the supernatural is real. That does not mean that all faiths are wrong about some demonic experience some of them may have had or some miracle etc. Having a third cousin twice removed experiencing a miracle does not mean the whole nation or people are suddenly and forever right about everything else! It means that enough things have happened over time to convince them that there is more than just the natural
Your box is too small
That's a terrible argument!You can't show it doesn't apply, and since we already had probably millions of miracles recorded, you need to have more than the natural only for your splainin power.
Claiming it is known is not demonstrating it.That is already known and always has been. Having some few ignore it to promote their godless philosophies matters not at all. We can say they do not know there is or is not more if we want to be kind and generous to them
You seem to be deliberately ignoring what I've been saying.Long as they get to use only the natural. We get it. Too bad for them that can't work and many have grown tired of the scam
At this point you are just repeating the same logical fallacies and same claims I have already tried to explain to you are wrong or based on a lack of understanding. You have displayed absolutely no sign of wanting to learn anything. You just cling to your position no matter what I say, loudly disagree with anything I put forward even if you don't understand it, and generally think that if I hold one position, you must automatically take the exact opposite position.Exactly, using only the natural to get there is all they care about. Narrow minded.
I do not accuse science of falsifying anything. That would be like a blind woman at a world dart championship being expected to win. Science cannot see spirits. It could not recognize supernatural activity. Take creation for example!But that puts you in a logical bind. If you hold that the existence of the supernatural in unfalsifiable, how can you accuse science of falsifying it?
You just start from the idea that spirits exist. Why do you expect others to have this same opinion?I do not accuse science of falsifying anything. That would be like a blind woman at a world dart championship being expected to win. Science cannot see spirits. It could not recognize supernatural activity. Take creation for example!
No, most already know it is true and do not need your approval or doubts. Not like you know anyhow or could tell. Science contents itself with absolute ignorance of anything but the natural. So it would not have any say in anything else. If any men of science were so foolish as to imagine that the supernatural could or should be shown true or false by them, the denizens of the natural only, that would not be our problem.That's a terrible argument!
"You can't show me it's wrong, therefore we should assume it's true!"
Not to those who force ignorance of anything but the natural on themselves. They only demonstration they want or could see would be natural! A ghost might as well dance for the three blind mice as to dance for scientists. They could not see or hear it.Weak.
Claiming it is known is not demonstrating it.
Natural only evidence. Did you think it dealt with the supernatural? That is not what science is about.Science is not a "natural-only" thing.
It is "Evidence only."
Like the 3 blind mice would?Show the evidence and science will use it.
You have displayed absolutely no sign of being capable of teaching anything.You have displayed absolutely no sign of wanting to learn anything.
No, your position was clear. You worship the natural only based conclusions of science despite them having no knowledge of the spiritual whatsoever and no ability to see it or hear it. If a ghost did a jig on a lab table for them and knocked over a test tube, they would say it was the wind, or that it was sitting wrong or etc etc etc. ComicalYou just cling to your position no matter what I say, loudly disagree with anything I put forward even if you don't understand it, and generally think that if I hold one position, you must automatically take the exact opposite position.
I think the evidence of Jesus should be verified by you and already has been by a lot of people. You just need to stop looking to the wrong people.So let me just ask one question...
Do you think evidence should be something that can be checked and verified by lots of different people? Yes or no.
Others can have any fact ignoring, history ignoring, testimony ignoring, prophesy that came true ignoring opinion they like. What others may not do is use the natural processes in God's creation that go on now, to tell us how or when He created it all. Or that it was not created.You just start from the idea that spirits exist. Why do you expect others to have this same opinion?
Okay, and how do you think we should verify evidence?I think the evidence of Jesus should be verified by you and already has been by a lot of people. You just need to stop looking to the wrong people.
That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. Creation was done by a spirit. That which is natural is natural and that which is spiritual is spiritual. Wisdom is knowing the difference. Science doesn't know the difference or even that there is a difference. Vive la difference.Okay, and how do you think we should verify evidence?
Okay, so how do you use the natural to verify evidence?That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. Creation was done by a spirit. That which is natural is natural and that which is spiritual is spiritual. Wisdom is knowing the difference. Science doesn't know the difference or even that there is a difference. Vive la difference.
So, to verify God who is a spirit, you must use something spiritual. To verify some physical natural process such as radioactive decay rates in a rock today, we need the natural. The mistake of science is not that they mix up the two, but that they only have the one. Consequently, they can only verify the one.
Okay, so how do you use the natural to verify evidence?
You use it to verify natural evidence. So, if we are trying to verify that radioactive decay happens at a certain rate, we would take samples of physical rocks for example. If we were trying to verify that God spoke through prophets we would check to see if bible prophesy is mostly already fulfilled and now history or not. Give not the job of verifying that which is holy to dogs. There is a place for everything and everything in it's place. A place for the spiritual. A place for the natural. When science makes claims about a supernatural event like creation it is out of place!Okay, so how do you use the natural to verify evidence?
So you use that which is natural to verify evidence by using it to verify evidence.You use it to verify natural evidence. So, if we are trying to verify that radioactive decay happens at a certain rate, we would take samples of physical rocks for example. If we were trying to verify that God spoke through prophets we would check to see if bible prophesy is mostly already fulfilled and now history or not. Give not the job of verifying that which is holy to dogs. There is a place for everything and everything in it's place. A place for the spiritual. A place for the natural. When science makes claims about a supernatural event like creation it is out of place!
Mark your calendars, this is a day when AV and I agree!Cause-and-effect helps.
The way to verify evidence is by seeing what testable claims it makes, and then testing those claims.
But if we can get the cause and it doesn't lead to the effect,
If it is something in the natural world, you do use natural means to look at evidence. Not sure what such a simple and obvious concept launches you into word game mode.So you use that which is natural to verify evidence by using it to verify evidence.
Well, you would not pay a psychic to program it would you?It's like saying that the way to program a computer is simply by programming the computer.
A piano is physical and needs to be operated accordingly. What does that have to do with the creation of the world by God? You would not bang on piano keys to find out how He did it. Just like you would not look at a rock to find out how He did it.Maybe I should just tell my students that they can learn to play the piano by simply playing it? Do you think that will help?
Not applicable to creation. Whatever He did in making the universe exist with a word is not testable by natural scienceHow about I just tell you the answer, because I don't think that you're ever going to be able to get it yourself.
The way to verify evidence is by seeing what testable claims it makes, and then testing those claims.
Except if that rock was here at creation 6000 years ago, the ratios in any part of the rock do not matter. They were all there when the rock came to exist. (assuming that rock was there at creation. All natural science can do is look at the various isotope ratios in a rock and how they undergo a decay process. That has zero connection to How or when God created them. You just try to grasp at straws and grasp at the processes going on now, as if they are what brought the rock into being! That is not verifying anything except that the way God created things now works a certain way.So, let's use your example of radiometric dating.
If there is a place where we can see several layers of rock, we can test the top-most layer and it returns a date of, say 1 million years. We then test the bottom-most layer, and it returns a date of, say, 10 million years.
Unless the rock was made after creation, which was something like 6000 years ago, then none of what you say applies. If a pattern of more or less isotopes of a certain kind exist in a rock, and each are undergoing processes, that does not mean the top part created the lower part or etc!This lets us test it. We know that the dates of the middle layers should be BETWEEN the dates of the top and bottom layers.
No. It shows it is uselessly bad. It is just an exercise to say the rock formed it's little self and was not created by God. You see if that rock was created, it came to exist as is more or less 6000 years ago.So if we test the middle layers and find that they have dates between 1 million and 10 million years old, then that shows that our dating technique is pretty good. And the more we can test the technique and it gives these results, then the better it is.
No. You just do not learn from your mistakes and do not even know you are making mistakes. The ratios are not dates! They only would/could/should/we believe be dates IF the rock was not created. That says nothing, except you choose to view a created rock as NOT created!But if we test the middle layers and find that one of the middle layers gets a result of 20 million years, and another one has a result of 1000 years, and another one has a date of a billion years, then we know the dating method is flawed.
Declaring the created ratios in a created rock to have actually come to exist BY the natural processes going on is absolutely nothing more than a statement of faith.So, being able to make testable predictions that are always correct can show us that our evidence is accurate.
Except you gave no actual example. No link. No support. You might be thinking of a formation like the grand canyon where the layers consist of different isotope ratios with more daughter material lower down or some such?In the above example, we were able to predict that the results of the middle layers would be between the ages of the top layer and the bottom layer.
In the example of the Grand Canyon, the only prediction from science is that the various layers will have different ratios (that they mistakenly associated with ages) in them. Nothing is falsifiable about that regarding whether the rocks were actually created or not! Testing the layers and verifying that there are different ratios in them does NOT mean they got there by natural processes!If it makes no testable predictions, the it is unfalsifiable, and is pretty much worthless as evidence. This is because you can say that it is evidence for anything and find ways to explain it away.
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